Nice statue of a Marxist.

[Revoltingest]

Relying on dictionaries for a comprehensive summary of a dynamic group of philosophies is folly.

And using a definition at odds with general usage is greater folly.
For socialism's fans to cite capitalist countries as positive examples
of socialism, while so many of the same tribe deny that N Korea is
socialist makes no sense.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

And using a definition at odds with general usage is greater folly.
For socialism's fans to cite capitalist countries as positive examples
of socialism, while so many of the same tribe deny that N Korea is
socialist makes no sense.

'General usage' is what it is, generalized and surface level usage. With very little nuance or understanding. N Korea is about as much an example of socialism as described by Marx as it is an example of a 'democratic republic.' Try a book other than the dictionary?

 

[Revoltingest]

'General usage' is what it is, generalized and surface level usage. With very little nuance or understanding. N Korea is about as much an example of socialism as described by Marx as it is an example of a 'democratic republic.' Try a book other than the dictionary?

Try speaking the same language as the rest of us?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Try speaking the same language as the rest of us?

There are dozens of words in the English language for the different types of socialism. Most people just shorten it into one because, I don't know, reading is hard. They might have to pick up a book about the thing they're criticizing. A book other than the dictionary. The horror.

 

[Revoltingest]

....I don't know, reading is hard.

You should contact all the dictionaries to tell them they're completely wrong.
It should be a hint that all the favored "socialist" countries have market
economies, with private ownership of the means of production.
It's pretty clear that socialists are ashamed of real socialist
economies, eg, N Korea, the pre-capitalist PRC. So they deny those,
& conveniently re-label their favorites in Scandinavia as "socialist".

Old joke....
If you call a tail a "leg", how many legs does a dog have?
Four, because a tail is not a leg.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You should contact all the dictionaries to tell them they're completely wrong.

I don't need to because most people are smart enough to understand that sociopolitics is bigger than single dictionary definitions and aren't prone to reduction fallacies and not reading the very philosophies they're criticizing. You know, things like Marxism =/= Juche.

This is the equivalent of saying that 'Christianity needs to answer for the Westboro Church!' It's infantile to assume Christianity is a monolith and that every Christian must therefore feel responsible for a belief they do not have.

I would rather live in Norway though. Because of all its socialist policy.

 

[Lyndon]

I'd rather not live in Revoltingest's bizzaro world of uncontrolled Capitalism!!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

@Revoltingest

Here is from OECD:
Economic production is an activity carried out under the control and responsibility of an institutional unit that uses inputs of labour, capital, and goods and services to produce outputs of goods or services.

Now I then checked for services as to what that means. You know I used an organisation which is about "Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development" and used their glossary. For the word services there are 585 results
https://stats.oecd.org/glossary/search.asp

Now I am not going to be nice. If you were a student and had to have a grade for your understanding of production in economics you would in all likelihood fail and not get a passing grade.

So here it is for banks. According to you banks don't do something economic and don't produce anything at all. If that is the level of understanding of economy, you claim is how to understand economy I don't know what to say.
You are a landlord if I recall right. What you do, is economical because you for money deliver a service: Housing, but according to you that is not an economical thing you.

So here it is for education in Denmark.
We are communal or if you like communists in that all children must receive education according to a standard set by the state. Now we are libertarian in that you don't have to go to public school. Parents can do the education themselves, but the child/children must still be graded according to a standard set by the state.
So let us look a public school.
It uses money from the state, labor from the teachers and goods in form of books bought for money about a subject to be education in. Further the school produces something, because it delivers a service: Education.

So here is OECD for educational services:

...
Expenditure on educational core services
Expenditure on educational core services includes all expenditure that is directly related to instruction and education. This should cover all expenditure on teachers, school buildings, teaching materials, books, tuition outside schools, and administration of schools.
...
https://stats.oecd.org/glossary/search.asp

What do you want me to say? E.g. just like some people don't understand logic, Sunstone made a thread about that, you don't understand economics in some sense.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

As the poster dissing socialism here, I see so many of its fans
not understanding it. All one needs to do is read a dictionary for
the definition, & examine results where it's been tried.

Too many of socialism's fans make the mistake of many conservatives,
ie, calling things like government provided health care, education,
& social safety nets "the means of production". Think instead of
manufacturing, farming, etc.

Here is take two. I google "what is a mixed economy".
Here is the result:
Mixed Economic System Definition
Now that is written by an economist and if you combine with my post above, it becomes clear what you are in effect doing.
You use a right wing politician who have a stake in the political fight over what is good to frame Denmark as capitalistic.
You don't go to alternate sources and you don't ask questions that could clear up what is going on. I.e. e.g. ask - what is a mixed economy?

So you do as some people on left do and some on right do. You distort how society works by using a subjective understanding and not objective as (of a person or their judgement) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.
It is telling that you made a thread about controlling words to fit a political narrative and then you do it yourself.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't need to because most people are smart enough to understand that sociopolitics is bigger than single dictionary definitions and aren't prone to reduction fallacies and not reading the very philosophies they're criticizing.

You're stating the obvious.
The shared problem between conservative enemies of socialism,
& the fans of socialism is using the terms incorrectly...in violation
of the accepted definitions. One too easily demonizes every gov't
program as "Socialism!". The other ignores the "means of production"
being fundamental to include every government program.
These 2 warring tribes have reached a kind of unrecognized hostile
mistaken agreement.

This is the equivalent of saying that 'Christianity needs to answer for the Westboro Church!' It's infantile to assume Christianity is a monolith and that every Christian must therefore feel responsible for a belief they do not have.

Improving the analogy...
It would be to say that to define Christianity, one must read
the Bible because the dictionary definitions are all wrong.

I would rather live in Norway though. Because of all its socialist policy.

They seem to have a good approach with capitalism, & high taxes
paying for social programs they like. All you need to do is develop
a taste for lutefisk. But before moving there, I recommend watching
the TV documentary, Lillehammer.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest
Now I am not going to be nice.

Thanx for the warning.

If you were a student and had to have a grade for....

That's the point where I stopped reading.
I know a lengthy post followed, but in order to encourage
compliance with the spirit of RF, I'll not reward ad hominems.

Always remember that we're only discussing meaningless
things like politics, economics, religion, sociology, & philosophy.
This shouldn't disturb anyone's equanimity.
I look forward to understanding your views on such things.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

... But before moving there, I recommend watching
the TV documentary, Lillehammer.

You mean: Lillehammer '94: 16 Days of Glory (TV Movie 1994)?

 

[Revoltingest]

You mean: Lillehammer '94: 16 Days of Glory (TV Movie 1994)?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Thanx for the warning.

That's the point where I stopped reading.

Nice! Then you did your self a favor. If this is about being wrong and learning form that, you just did the opposite. You can of course do that and as others point out in other debates, it won't stop you from being wrong.
Your understanding of what economics is, is wrong and thus you are wrong.

That is how I learn. If I dig in and don't change how I understand something and I understand it in a wrong manner, people don't stop point it out. I.e. I am wrong and then I take a deep breath, check and admit if that is the case.

Your understanding of economics is in conflict with basic high school learning.
Wikipedia will do here:
Tertiary sector of the economy - Wikipedia

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So you don't even know what a documentary is?

 

[Revoltingest]

So you don't even know what a documentary is?

You didn't know it's real?
Oh, dear.
But it could be confusing, since they spelled the
documentary's name differently from the town's.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And using a definition at odds with general usage is greater folly.
For socialism's fans to cite capitalist countries as positive examples
of socialism, while so many of the same tribe deny that N Korea is
socialist makes no sense.

Denmark - Economy
...
In the Danish mixed welfare-state economy, private sector expenditures account for more than half of the net national income. Public expenditure is directed primarily toward health and social services, education, economic affairs, foreign affairs, and national defense. The government does not have significant commercial or industrial income.
...

Well, you really have a problem with not going binary.
Communism is in effect a hetrogenenic web of ideas around the public control of the means of production and that includes different versions of socialism. And yes, North Korea is socialistic, but not just that.
Denmark is also socialistic, but not just that.

But what Bernie Sanders advocates is not NK socialism, if you pay attention to him. So it is not relevant to point out NK as a refutation as such.
You point out the actual problem with democratic socialism as such. I would do that and advocate for social democracy instead, which is a mixed system of socialism and capitalism.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You didn't know it's real?
Oh, dear.
But it could be confusing, since they spelled the
documentary's name differently from the town's.

Okay, it stops for now. If that is how you get your knowledge about the world, we won't get any further.

 

[Stevicus]

Fixed.
See also post #117.

So, your position is that a country's success or failure is not related to the economic system? I would actually agree with that, if that's your position.

 

[tytlyf]

Isn't Mexico a capitalist Christian nation? There's barely a middle class in Mexico. Just like how there's barely a middle class in America.
Republican policies do not benefit the middle class. And don't let them scare you into thinking republicans are the lesser of 2 evils. It's all a ruse for votes.