Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[rrobs]

Did Jesus hide His abilities? People saw Him perform miracles. If there is one single person alive today that can do what Jesus did someone should have seen it done. You keep changing the subject. It is not about me saying something it is about you saying that you or anyone else can do what Jesus did. It should be very easy to give even one example.

I'll try one more time: I DID NOT SAY WE CAN SO THE THINGS JESUS DID. JESUS SAID IT.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I (JESUS) say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Your argument is with God, not with me. If God is right, you are not seeing the works because you do not believe. You might want to re-examine your position and align it more closely with God's word than with your own reasoning. That is the true meaning of humility.

 

[rrobs]

Jesus says in Mathew 3:8 that we should let our talents be seen by others and thereby glorify God.

That's not what it says. Where does it mention glorifying God? It's talking about something quite a bit different, i.e. the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees, acting holy but being anything but holy on the inside. Fruit comes from what is happening from within. Totally different subject here.

 

[rrobs]

This has nothing to do with incorruptible seed. It has to do with the fact that Jesus was baptized in water. Didn't need cleansing. He set the pace for his disciples.

Jesus also said to pluck out your eye if you've ever looked at a hot, scantly clad babe and got a boner.

Seriously though, do you not understand that Jesus was talking to Jews before he died, rose, and resurrected? You are not a Jew and you live after Jesus did his work. While you can certainly learn from reading other people's mail, you must understand it wasn't written to you. God wrote a completely different letter to you in this day and age. That would be basically Romans through Jude. Those are what God wrote directly to you. Fortunately we do not have to pluck out our eyes anymore. Jesus took care of all our sinful lust.

Why is it so hard to see that, along with a myriad of changes, Jesus changed the medium of baptism from water to holy spirit? Both John and Jesus himself were actually crystal clear on that very point. You should know the verses by now. I've given them to you half a dozen times or so.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

When a person is raised from the dead immortal by the Spirit he is called a spirit.

So you are saying no one is born again until they are raised from the dead? What about all these people who clain to be born again Christians? Are they mistaken?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I'll try one more time: I DID NOT SAY WE CAN SO THE THINGS JESUS DID. JESUS SAID IT.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I (JESUS) say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Your argument is with God, not with me. If God is right, you are not seeing the works because you do not believe. You might want to re-examine your position and align it more closely with God's word than with your own reasoning. That is the true meaning of humility.

If you believe on Jesus you should be able to do the works he did. Can you? Can anyone? Or was Jesus wrong?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

That's not what it says. Where does it mention glorifying God? It's talking about something quite a bit different, i.e. the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees, acting holy but being anything but holy on the inside. Fruit comes from what is happening from within. Totally different subject here.

OK I can admit when I made a mistake. I meant Mathew 5:16 where it says to let your light shine before men in order to glorify the Father. So if all these Christians can do great things like Jesus they should be showing that ability to others to glorify God. I have seen none. Have you?

 

[rrobs]

If you believe on Jesus you should be able to do the works he did. Can you? Can anyone? Or was Jesus wrong?

That's for you to decide.

 

[rrobs]

OK I can admit when I made a mistake. I meant Mathew 5:16 where it says to let your light shine before men in order to glorify the Father. So if all these Christians can do great things like Jesus they should be showing that ability to others to glorify God. I have seen none. Have you?

Matt 5:16 is talking about good works which are not the same as miracles and healing, but I understand what you are saying, just not sure it is relevant.

Yes, I have seen many things. Do you go to a church? Do they believe in miracles and healing?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Jesus also said to pluck out your eye if you've ever looked at a hot, scantly clad babe and got a boner.

Seriously though, do you not understand that Jesus was talking to Jews before he died, rose, and resurrected? You are not a Jew and you live after Jesus did his work. While you can certainly learn from reading other people's mail, you must understand it wasn't written to you. God wrote a completely different letter to you in this day and age. That would be basically Romans through Jude. Those are what God wrote directly to you. Fortunately we do not have to pluck out our eyes anymore. Jesus took care of all our sinful lust.

Why is it so hard to see that, along with a myriad of changes, Jesus changed the medium of baptism from water to holy spirit? Both John and Jesus himself were actually crystal clear on that very point. You should know the verses by now. I've given them to you half a dozen times or so.

I have asked several serious questions and never got a good answer to any but I will try one more. This Holy Spirit baptism seems to be very important. Can you tell me exactly how it is done? Does one need to go to a certain church or say a certain prayer or make a certain sign with their hands? Must it be done in a church? Must a minister do it? This is an honest and serious question. If Holy Spirit baptism is so impoetant then people need to know how to go about it.

 

[rrobs]

I have asked several serious questions and never got a good answer to any but I will try one more. This Holy Spirit baptism seems to be very important. Can you tell me exactly how it is done? Does one need to go to a certain church or say a certain prayer or make a certain sign with their hands? Must it be done in a church? Must a minister do it? This is an honest and serious question. If Holy Spirit baptism is so impoetant then people need to know how to go about it.

Yes, baptism in holy spirit is important. It is more than important, it is the very essence of the new birth. I agree 100% that people need to know about it, but sadly few churches address the issue. That is precisely why you don't typically see the miracles and healing you would like to see.

God will never force his born again children to do what they don't want to do. He tells them they have the spirit within which is the potential to do the works Jesus did. But it is only potential to do the works. Like I said, it is up to each believer to come to a knowledge of the truth and then to act upon that truth. Obviously if one does not know something they can not believe it, and therefore they can not act on it. Hence the sad dearth of miracles within the Christian church.

To get baptized in holy spirit, you do not have to go to a church, nor have it done by a pastor. It is done by Jesus when you confess him as your lord (boss) and believe God raised him from the dead, i.e. when you are born again. As Jesus told Nicodemus in the Gospel of John, to be born again is to be born by spirit. That is as direct of an answer to your question as I can give. Hopefully it will suffice.

1 Cor 12:13,

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
​

If you read 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 carefully you will notice that what most call gifts, God calls manifestations. Under that list you should notice that 7 of the 9 manifestations of the spirit are things Jesus himself did, hence his statement that we can do the things he did. The two manifestations Jesus never did are tongues and interpretation of tongues. The reason for that is simple; it was not available until the day of Pentecost, 50 days after his resurrection.

Would you like some links that would help you get started in this area of holy spirit?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Yes, baptism in holy spirit is important. It is more than important, it is the very essence of the new birth. I agree 100% that people need to know about it, but sadly few churches address the issue. That is precisely why you don't typically see the miracles and healing you would like to see.

God will never force his born again children to do what they don't want to do. He tells them they have the spirit within which is the potential to do the works Jesus did. But it is only potential to do the works. Like I said, it is up to each believer to come to a knowledge of the truth and then to act upon that truth. Obviously if one does not know something they can not believe it, and therefore they can not act on it. Hence the sad dearth of miracles within the Christian church.

To get baptized in holy spirit, you do not have to go to a church, nor have it done by a pastor. It is done by Jesus when you confess him as your lord (boss) and believe God raised him from the dead, i.e. when you are born again. As Jesus told Nicodemus in the Gospel of John, to be born again is to be born by spirit. That is as direct of an answer to your question as I can give. Hopefully it will suffice.

1 Cor 12:13,

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
​

If you read 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 carefully you will notice that what most call gifts, God calls manifestations. Under that list you should notice that 7 of the 9 manifestations of the spirit are things Jesus himself did, hence his statement that we can do the things he did. The two manifestations Jesus never did are tongues and interpretation of tongues. The reason for that is simple; it was not available until the day of Pentecost, 50 days after his resurrection.

Would you like some links that would help you get started in this area of holy spirit?

Thank you for an honest and understandable answer. So you are saying that Holy Spirit baptism occurs at the same time that one is born again? That unfortunately brings me back to my first question. That which is born of the spirit IS spirit. And Jesus told Nicodemus that that those who are born again will be invisible like the wind. All these people who claim to be born again are not spirits and are not invisible. So what am I missing?

 

[Nova2216]

Lazarus' sister believed for him.

John 11:22,

But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give [it] thee.
​

The centurion in Matthew 8:8 believing for his son's healing is another example. There are a few more like this in the scriptures.

Looks like my argument has shark's teeth after all.

Do you also believe and teach the living can be baptized for those already dead (in pergutory)?



First you say I do not believe and therefore I will never see a miracle b/c of my unbelief.

So I point out Lazarus was dead and could have no faith.

Then you say it does not matter if one has faith or not b/c Lazarus sister believed for him.

Now do you see what I mean by you Vacillating?

You seem to be bending one way and then another depending on which way the wind is blowing. This is a sign someone is not following truth but rather error.

Truth is constant and will always harmonize. (Ps. 119:160)

 

[Nova2216]

And you've seen me walk....when?

If one person could walk up to a body which has been dead for at least three days and raise that body from the dead they would be on each and every TV program you can imagine. It has not yet happened and will not happen.

WHY?

B/c I know what the word of God teaches on the subject.

(Zech.13:1,2) (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph.4:11-13) (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19; 19:1-6) all teach miracles ceased around the end of the first century. ONLY the apostles could pass on the gifts to others. Once the apostles died miracles soon ceased.

Let me say this, if anyone can do a notable miracle as was done in the first century I will become a member of their church immediately.

Ac 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.


Thanks

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

HI Nova2216 I think I asked before but would you give your opinion on "that which is born of the spirit IS spirit"? And exactly what do you believe it means to be born again? When and how does it occur? I am following a lot of what you say but need clarification on these points.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

If one person could walk up to a body which has been dead for at least three days and raise that body from the dead they would be on each and every TV program you can imagine. It has not yet happened and will not happen.

WHY?

B/c I know what the NT teaches on the subject.

(Zech.13:1,2) (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph.4:11-13) (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19; 19:1-6) all teach miracles ceased around the end of the first century. ONLY the apostles could pass on the gifts to others. Once the apostles died miracles soon ceased.

Let me say this, if anyone can do a notable miracle as was done in the first century I will become a member of their church immediately.


Thanks

I will be right there with you and probably thousands more. Actually millions more.

 

[rrobs]

Thank you for an honest and understandable answer. So you are saying that Holy Spirit baptism occurs at the same time that one is born again? That unfortunately brings me back to my first question. That which is born of the spirit IS spirit. And Jesus told Nicodemus that that those who are born again will be invisible like the wind. All these people who claim to be born again are not spirits and are not invisible. So what am I missing?

That's a good question. I assume you are talking about John 3:8.

John 3:8,

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
​

First of all, this does not say born again people are invisible. It is comparing wind to holy spirit.

When we in the modern West hear the word "spirit" we think of an entity, some type of being in a white sheet. That is not at all what the ancient Jews thought when they heard the word. Basically they thought of spirit as an invisible force that can act on and affect the material world.

Wind itself is not visible and yet we can certainly feel the effects of it. Anybody in hurricane country can understand that. The spirit is the same way. Spirit itself is invisible and yet we can feel the affects of it in the material world, just like the wind. Only instead of blowing houses off their foundation, spirit affects us by healing and by miracles, things which are very tangible.

Remember I said the invisible spirit has 9 ways to manifest itself in the material world? Hopefully now you understand why 1 Cor 12 differentiates between the gift of holy spirit and the nine ways it manifests in the world. Tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge, etc (1 Cor 12:7-10) are not gifts. They are all manifestations of the one gift which is holy spirit.

Perhaps Colossians 1:27 also makes sense to you in a way it didn't before.

Col 1:27,

To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
​

You can't see the Christ that is in you, but you can certainly utilize the power it has in order to bring others to Christ. You can utilize that spirit via the 9 manifestations.

For example, God gives you word of knowledge that your friend is sick. He then gives you word of wisdom which enables you to know what to do the with knowledge He gave you about your friend. It may be that God, through the Christ in you (spirit), will tell you to administer healing or maybe cast out a devil spirit. It's just that simple. Notice the use of 4 of the 9 manifestations of spirit. Well, it's simple in concept. Application may require much prayer and believing, but you are filled with all the fullness of God (Eph 3:9), so you can do it. Can you imagine the difference we'd see in Christianity if the churches taught these things? I would think the world would be unrecognizable from what it is today. In a majorly good way of course!

 

[rrobs]

Do you also believe and teach the living can be baptized for those already dead (in pergutory)?

No. Jesus will raise all the babies that ever died and will judge them according to their works. Since a baby can't do too much harm, I can't imagine Jesus condemning them to the second death of Revelation.

First you say I do not believe and therefore I will never see a miracle b/c of my unbelief.

So I point out Lazarus was dead and could have no faith.

Then you say it does not matter if one has faith or not b/c Lazarus sister believed for him.

Now do you see what I mean by you Vacillating?

You seem to be bending one way and then another depending on which way the wind is blowing. This is a sign someone is not following truth but rather error.

Truth is constant and will always harmonize. (Ps. 119:160)

I didn't vacillate. There is no vacillation in saying that if one believes for healing they will be healed and saying, that due to unconsciousness or inability to reason, someone else can believe for that person.

If you were very sick but still able to think, you would believe for your own healing. But if you were in a coma, you obviously could not believe anything. God didn't let you suffer because of that. Instead He made a provision for someone to believe for you. I quoted two verses that said just that. I think I also quoted a verse or two that shows you are responsible for your own believing as long as you are aware enough to do so. No vacillation. Two different scenarios altogether.

So where is the disharmony in what I just said?

 

[Nova2216]

I'll try one more time: I DID NOT SAY WE CAN SO THE THINGS JESUS DID. JESUS SAID IT.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I (JESUS) say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
​

Your argument is with God, not with me. If God is right, you are not seeing the works because you do not believe. You might want to re-examine your position and align it more closely with God's word than with your own reasoning. That is the true meaning of humility.

No sir, I am in agreement with the word of God.

You have a severe misunderstanding of what (Jn 14:12) teaches.

Please tell me one miracle which would be GREATER THAN walking on water or raising the dead.

The whole purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to establish a plan which would save men (Jer.31:31-34) (Heb.8:6-13) (Rom.1:16).

The one thing Jesus could NOT DO is tell people directly how to be saved (2Cor.4:7).

Jesus has ordained that men teach other men the gospel so they can be saved (2Tim.2:2) (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16). That is why the Lord did NOT tell Paul what to do to be saved in (Acts 9) but rather sent him to Damascus three days later to speak with a preacher (Ananias) (Acts 22:16).

One cannot be saved until they have their sins forgiven (Isa,59:1,2).

Pauls sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus at the point of baptism (Acts 22:16) and not on the road while speaking to Jesus. people many times just ignore this very powerful point and hold on to a doctrine of error. (1Thess.5:21).

 

[rrobs]

If one person could walk up to a body which has been dead for at least three days and raise that body from the dead they would be on each and every TV program you can imagine. It has not yet happened and will not happen.

WHY?

B/c I know what the word of God teaches on the subject.

(Zech.13:1,2) (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph.4:11-13) (Acts 6:6 ; 8:18,19; 19:1-6) all teach miracles ceased around the end of the first century. ONLY the apostles could pass on the gifts to others. Once the apostles died miracles soon ceased.

Let me say this, if anyone can do a notable miracle as was done in the first century I will become a member of their church immediately.

Ac 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.

Thanks

In Zechariah, you are mixing up Jews with the Church of the Body (Eph 1:22-23). Zechariah is talking about Jesus 2nd coming when God will fulfill all the promises He made to Israel. The church has nothing to do with that. Different time and different people.

In 1 Cor 13:8-10 we learn that when that which is perfect is come, we will no longer need that which is part. Again, that is only when Jesus returns and he will write God's laws in our hearts. There will no longer be two Christians that can not agree on the same verses or 10,000+ different denominations. Clearly all Christians lack perfection as evidenced by the sins we all commit (1 John 1:8). Something is lacking!

Maybe this will help;

1 Cor 13:12,

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
​

Until we see Jesus face to face we are in the "now" and we are looking through a dark glass. Again, hardly a sign of perfection.

Eph 4:13,

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
​

Looks like until we can all agree on everything, we need the gift ministries. Once Jesus returns there will be no need for apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers. I always find it amusing to hear a pastor teach we have arrived at the perfection spoken of in verse 12. If what he was saying were true, he'd be out of a job! He wouldn't be teaching anything at all, since we would all be perfect. It amazes me they never see the irony in what they say. But then again, I understand nobody can go beyond what they are taught.

Not sure why you would use Acts 6:6 to say miracles ceased. Maybe a typo, you meant some other verse?

The same with Acts 18. That is just saying the power of God can't be bought. It doesn't deny the existence of the power in any way, shape, or form.

Nor does Acts 19 deny the power. It is a case of what I said a above, i.e., nobody can go beyond what they are taught. All the Corinthians had been taught was baptism in water. Verse 2 says they hadn't even heard of holy spirit. Paul educated them, like I'm trying to do with you. Paul told them about holy spirit, they, unlike you, believed what he said, and viola, they spoke in tongues which is one of the nine ways the invisible holy spirit can manifest itself in the material world.

BTW, why would you believe TV over God's word? I knew a guy who used to say, "I don't care if it never comes to pass, it is still God's word!" That is exactly what all those mentioned in Hebrews 11 thought. Abraham never saw his seed as the stars of the sky, nor did he live in the land God promised to give him. But he didn't waver in his belief. Clearly he thought more of God's word than his own eyes. You may want to consider following his lead.

 

[rrobs]

No sir, I am in agreement with the word of God.

You have a severe misunderstanding of what (Jn 14:12) teaches.

Please tell me one miracle which would be GREATER THAN walking on water or raising the dead.

The whole purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to establish a plan which would save men (Jer.31:31-34) (Heb.8:6-13) (Rom.1:16).

The one thing Jesus could NOT DO is tell people directly how to be saved (2Cor.4:7).

I have agreed wholeheartedly with you before on this point and I still do.

Jesus has ordained that men teach other men the gospel so they can be saved (2Tim.2:2) (Mt.28:18-20) (Mark 16:15,16). That is why the Lord did NOT tell Paul what to do to be saved in (Acts 9) but rather sent him to Damascus three days later to speak with a preacher (Ananias) (Acts 22:16).

One cannot be saved until they have their sins forgiven (Isa,59:1,2).

Pau'ls sins were forgiven by the blood of Jesus at the point of baptism (Acts 22:16) and not on the road while speaking to Jesus. people many times just ignore this very powerful point and hold on to a doctrine of error. (1Thess.5:21).

That would all be true and I'd be wrong if the Apostles instantly grasped the whole truth in on fell swing. But, as I've said repeatedly, that is not how life and people work. In this case, Paul had not even written one word, so all he did wright later would be new information. Everything recorded in the scriptures did happen, but not everything was what God intended to happen.