This is part of the reason we end up with total lockdowns

[Twilight Hue]

Freedom to make others sick is not a right, nor a freedom. But going out and congregating--in any form--puts you and those you interact with at risk. You have no way of knowing how sick covid will make them, nor do you know if it will kill them or not.

Neither is preventing and denying people from making a living and putting food on their table in keeping a roof over their heads.

Quite a rock and a hard place isn't it?

You must have quite a bit of money. Your position sounds quite comfortable based on how you sound.

I happen to be more concerned atm with people who simply can't feed themselves or can't afford a roof anymore.

Bottom line is we have to open, come hell or high water.

 

[metis]

Nobody says squat about those including the flu. Covid is only moderately higher as to the danger level.

This is NOT like the flu! It is in reality the quickest killer at least in American history with roughly 100,000 deaths in roughly 3 months-- and it ain't done yet.

Three of my neighbors have had it with one being hospitalized for three weeks; a close friend of mine almost died from it; my wife had one of her cousins die from it; and our one sister-in-law is still in the hospital for about 2 months now.

NONE of them say it's like the flu!

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is NOT like the flu! It is in reality the quickest killer at least in American history with roughly 100,000 deaths in roughly 3 months-- and it ain't done yet.

Three of my neighbors have had it with one being hospitalized for three weeks; a close friend of mine almost died from it; my wife had one of her cousins die from it; and our one sister-in-law is still in the hospital for about 2 months now.

NONE of them say it's like the flu!

Only you're saying that. H191 in 1918 killed over 50 million people. Is the coronavirus anywhere near that figure yet?

Addum: Setting the debate aside for a moment, I wish your relatives friends and family all the best of health as possible, and my condolences for any deaths.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There is no excuse to put innocent others at risk when it can be avoided.

Here in the Detroit area, we got hit really hard at the start of this, only behind the NYC area, thus due to this scare we really hunkered down, and now the hospitals are emptying of covid patients here.

All I know is that I'm dealing with some serious mental health issues and this virus stuff has set me back in terms of fixing my shambles of a life. I can't go to the support groups or DBT therapy sessions I was attending, I can't do the work program I was going to do (I have zero income) and have just gotten more depressed and full of despair. So I'm worried about other things than the virus. I don't go out and socialize even during normal times. There was only one person I hung out with, basically lived with, and now she won't talk to me so I'm just totally alone. I wish society would remember people like me, but it seems we don't matter in normal times and even less now.

The only reason I'm able to even be on the forum right now is because I bought a phone and paid for service with my stimulus check but I only have enough money to pay the bill for a couple more months. I don't know what to do. When that's shut off, that's it in terms of contacting people as the libraries remain closed.

 

[Valjean]

But we do have the freedom and right to congregate for our purpose. Be it political or religious. We are not congregating to make people sick.

That's not your intent, but it's the practical result.
Freedom is fine when you're a small band living in a cave, but with larger numbers things get unstable. To live together in large societies rules must be established; certain freedoms must be curtailed, for the good of the group and, ultimately, you.

When you get in your car and drive, you knowingly are putting people at risk. There is a chance you will kill someone. Perhaps a whole family. You have no way of knowing. The only sure way to avoid it is to quit driving. Lockdown all cars and motor transportation. Problem solved.

Now you're being ridiculous. All human activity entails some risk, but we make rules and laws to minimize those risks. It's part of the social contract -- co-operation to promote the general welfare.

Don't be sociopathic. Masks, social distancing, &c are reasonable precautions in our current situation, just like traffic laws or contract enforcement.

 

[Tambourine]

Only you're saying that. H191 in 1918 killed over 50 million people. Is the coronavirus anywhere near that figure yet?

I'm curious, how many people need to drop dead from a disease for you to take it seriously?

Just a rough ballpark estimate?

 

[Valjean]

It's a good question, "What is freedom"?

I mean let's face it, government has given people nothing to really trust and the erosion of freedoms is a well documented trend.

What, in your opinion, is government? Who is government?
You seem to perceive it as some sort of malevolent conspiracy, out to get you -- an all too common right wing trait, I observe.

There has been an erosion of freedom, especially since 9/11, with our transformation to a police-surveillance state. That's what you get when the Republicans have a free hand.

I think most most people would associate freedom with personal and economic automonity within a society, for which government now, is playing an ever-increasing role restricting a person's ability to move within society removing much of what was enjoyed in the past.

"...freedom and personal autonomy" in a society? Sounds a little oxymoronic. If we're going to live prosperously and securely in a society as large as ours, we can't all be cowboys. We need to co-operate.

Essentially people are not being given choices anymore but rather are forcibly compulsed with the majority of policy-making that has been coming out in the past few decades.

The Covid-19 crisis is definitely proving that to be true as compulsory government policies have prevented individuals from making a living, and being woefully forced out of their means of making a livelihood.

Why do you find these policies more onerous and unjust than any other policy?
A prohibition on dumping factory waste into a river might prevent someone from making a living, but don't you see the necessity of it? How is it different from today's Covid precautions?

It would certainly help reduce the insane number of corrupt laws we have now.

So vote Democratic, for a change.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm curious, how many people need to drop dead from a disease for you to take it seriously?

Just a rough ballpark estimate?

Well I know it's not 1% not even 2% if it were even to hit that high.

I would take it serious if it matched H1N1 in severity or had the equivalent effect of the Bubonic plague in medieval times.

 

[Valjean]

Like abolishing drug laws right? Different subject same principle.

And yea a good number of laws should be thrown in the trash for the very reason you can't control it don't matter what you do.

Let people make their own decisions and suffer their own consequences that's my philosophy on the matter.

All well and good -- until the consequences spread to others. Your attitude is anti-social and selfish.

 

[Twilight Hue]

What, in your opinion, is government? Who is government?
You seem to perceive it as some sort of malevolent conspiracy, out to get you -- an all too common right wing trait, I observe.

There has been an erosion of freedom, especially since 9/11, with our transformation to a police-surveillance state. That's what you get when the Republicans have a free hand.
"...freedom and personal autonomy" in a society? Sounds a little oxymoronic. If we're going to live prosperously and securely in a society as large as ours, we can't all be cowboys. We need to co-operate.
Why do you find these policies more onerous and unjust than any other policy?
A prohibition on dumping factory waste into a river might prevent someone from making a living, but don't you see the necessity of it? How is it different from today's Covid precautions?
So vote Democratic, for a change.

Hey I'm the first to accuse Republicans of things like the Patriot Act and such. I consider it a breach of the Constitution as it pertains to citizens. So you're right, Republicans are just as guilty in their own way. in fact with most of the people locked up in this nation the states with the most incarceration are Republican states. Much to my dismay mind you.

The Left however isn't much better.

If I'm going to vote, it'll be for a completely new third party that is very very center stage. You could say if a bunch of conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans got together and brought forth new offspring of a brand new political family, one of compromise and flexibility, sense and sensibility, I'll be happy to throw myself in the fray and fly a new flag thereafter.

 

[Valjean]

People transmit diseases and viruses all the time. Nobody says squat about those including the flu. Covid is only moderately higher as to the danger level. It's not like the equivalent of the bubonic plague in medieval Europe.

Only if it's to the level of Typhoid Mary and people are dropping dead left and right. Do you think covid-19 is at the same level of Typhoid back in the day when it was at its worst?

Compare the harm caused by Typhoid Mary to the damage caused by Covid 19. No contest.
One Ill Choir Singer Infected 52 Others With Coronavirus: Study | HuffPost

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Neither is preventing and denying people from making a living and putting food on their table in keeping a roof over their heads.

Let's be realistic, this is our future, but because of robots and machines instead of a virus. But it is a virus today.
Food stamps, rent assistance, there are means of helping people without needlessly risking them to exposure. Amd right now there isnt much else we can do without causing a surge in cases. We are going to have to go with less if you want to make it through with the fewest amount of deaths.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Let's be realistic, this is our future, but because of robots and machines instead of a virus. But it is a virus today.
Food stamps, rent assistance, there are means of helping people without needlessly risking them to exposure. Amd right now there isnt much else we can do without causing a surge in cases. We are going to have to go with less if you want to make it through with the fewest amount of deaths.

You know I can meet the crisis amicably if people are giving guarantees that they will be able to sustain themselves for the entire duration without repercussions.

The million quadrillion dollar question is will government be able to survive it all along with its citizens
, in terms of economic viability and essential functions once it's all over.

Remember the term, "money doesn't grow on trees".

Imagine if the whole world goes bankrupt all of a sudden. I think that's the crux of the issue aside from the virus itself.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

People transmit diseases and viruses all the time. Nobody says squat about those including the flu.

Actually we do encourage people to stay home when they are sick, and some of us have spent years advocating for paid sick time off as a guarantee to help make stayimg home possible.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

That may not be your intent. It happens anyways. That is not your right to put othera at such risk.

Poor example because we have laws against reckless and dangerous driving. It is simply not your right tobdrive 100 MPH, regardless of why you may think otherwise.

It doesn't matter what kind of laws you have. You still are putting people at risk when you drive. You can obey all the laws and still kill someone.

I know you don't intend to kill someone...but you might. So, what is the answer? It is simple. Mobile lock down. I mean if just one life is lost that is too many...right?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You know I can meet the crisis amicably if people are giving guarantees that they will be able to sustain themselves for the entire duration without repercussions.

The million quadrillion dollar question is will government be able to survive it all along with its citizens
, in terms of economic viability and essential functions once it's all over.

Remember the term, "money doesn't grow on trees".

Imagine if the whole world goes bankrupt all of a sudden. I think that's the crux of the issue aside from the virus itself.

The governments held theough worse. However, econimic systems sometimes changex such as the Black Death killing fuedalism in Europe and creating a slightly more worker friendly climate.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

That's not your intent, but it's the practical result.
Freedom is fine when you're a small band living in a cave, but with larger numbers things get unstable. To live together in large societies rules must be established; certain freedoms must be curtailed, for the good of the group and, ultimately, you.
Now you're being ridiculous. All human activity entails some risk, but we make rules and laws to minimize those risks. It's part of the social contract -- co-operation to promote the general welfare.

Don't be sociopathic. Masks, social distancing, &c are reasonable precautions in our current situation, just like traffic laws or contract enforcement.

No, you are being ridiculous.

Where is there lockdown for driving due to deaths by car accidents?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Valjean]

I happen to be more concerned atm with people who simply can't feed themselves or can't afford a roof anymore.

LOL -- You're starting to sound like a socialist.

Bottom line is we have to open, come hell or high water.

And who's going to pay for the care of the infected, or support their families?
Personally I'd prefer to avoid Hell and high water.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It doesn't matter what kind of laws you have. You still are putting people at risk when you drive. You can obey all the laws and still kill someone.

I know you don't intend to kill someone...but you might. So, what is the answer? It is simple. Mobile lock down. I mean if just one life is lost that is too many...right?

Good-Ole-Rebel

It's not very likely a safe driver will be endangering others, and when it happens its typically something like mechanical failure.
Amd its a weak example because auto wrecks kill not even half of what Covid has so far, and even people being cautious can catch it and pass it on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

LOL -- You're starting to sound like a socialist.

Enjoy it while you can. Once this isbover theyll be back to being lazy, pot smoking bums who would rather suck the government teat than work.