Discussion/Debate without using any form of holy book or text

[sealchan]

This is maybe a challenge that can get out of hand. But it would be interesting to see if it is possible to get people to have a religious/spiritual discussion without use of any religious texts, but use their own words, their own thoughts and understanding of what they believe in or following. No quotes, no verses only your own words. Anyone up for the challenge?

I have had experiences that were either independent of or an independent response to Biblical scripture. My close study of my dreams and some simple Jungian ideas have given me a frame for discussing personal transformation outside of my Christian faith.

My experience of the Holy Spirit as an uplifting confidence and inner peace amidst turmoil can easily be described without reference to that Biblical idea.

Interestingly, I have found that there are certain qualities to what I call the God experience that are found in the Bible but are not called out and seen as applicable to all of us. However I have found that others today have these sorts of experiences but do not see them as necessarily related to faith.

 

[Terry Sampson]

So, @Amanaki, do you live in a cosmos that consists of things that move through Space over Time or do you live in a cosmos in which there is no motion?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So, @Amanaki, do you live in a cosmos that consists of things that move through Space over Time or do you live in a cosmos in which there is no motion?

Things move in time and space, But my focus is only on the moment i experiences at any given time, meaning that even times go I do my best to only be focused on each moment. Past is not important and future has not yet been here, so I can only be present at the moment.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Things move in time and space

Glad to hear it, me too.

But my focus is only on the moment i experiences at any given time

I do no doubt that you think you do, but I do doubt that you do. I'll try to explain why.
The notion of motion requires no less than two abstract nouns and one concrete noun in order to even begin to be meaningful.
The first abstract noun is Space; the second abstract noun is Time; and the concrete noun is mass.
The most simple definition of Space that I have seen is this: "Space" is a set (i.e.a collection of things). The elements of the set are points (i.e locations without length, width, or depth).
The most simple definition of Time that I have seen is this: "Time" is a set. The elements of the set are instants (times that have no duration).
So, when you say that you focus "only on the moment that you experience at any give time", do you mean that your focus is only on one point in Space at some specific instant? If so, how do you know where you came from and where you are going or how long the journey from one place to another has been or will require? How do you remember what happened and plan for what you think will happen?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Glad to hear it, me too.

I do no doubt that you think you do, but I do doubt that you do. I'll try to explain why.
The notion of motion requires no less than two abstract nouns and one concrete noun in order to even begin to be meaningful.
The first abstract noun is Space; the second abstract noun is Time; and the concrete noun is mass.
The most simple definition of Space that I have seen is this: "Space" is a set (i.e.a collection of things). The elements of the set are points (i.e locations without length, width, or depth).
The most simple definition of Time that I have seen is this: "Time" is a set. The elements of the set are instants (times that have no duration).
So, when you say that you focus "only on the moment that you experience at any give time", do you mean that your focus is only on one point in Space at some specific instant? If so, how do you know where you came from and where you are going or how long the journey from one place to another has been or will require? How do you remember what happened and plan for what you think will happen?

It means that example if I am on a bus traveling for 40 minutes or 1 hour has nothing to say because i am on the bus so i can only focus on sitting there until it is my time to get off. I dont feel bored because it is a long bus ride. I do not think of the start of the ride or the end of the ride when i sit there. its just a movement in time because the bus uses time from point A to point B. But how long or short does not matter. I am still able to remember my past, but have no focus on it until someone ask me about something that happend in a moment in our past. Nor do I plan for the future more then knowing that it is something that will take place some time in the future. But my focus still only at the current moment. I do not know if this make any sense to others

 

[Terry Sampson]

I do not know if this make any sense to others

I understand what you're saying.

 

[Terry Sampson]

But my focus still only at the current moment.

Okay, ... I'll continue:
The things I find interesting about the abstract concept of Space is that the most simple version of is the three-dimensional version, described by Euclid over two thousand years ago. Each dimension is bi-directional.
And the things I find interesting thing about the abstract concept of Time is that the most simple version of it is the one-dimensional version.
Euclid's 3-dimenstional Space doesn't bend, stretch, or contract. And it is theoretically infinite, i.e. it has no boundaries. Any space that is not infinite is a subset Space. Some folks talk about it as if it is bi-directional; but I don't believe that. I say it's uni-directional.
1-dimensional Time doesn't bend, stretch, or contract. And it is theoretically infinite, i.e. has no beginning and has no end. Any time that has a beginning and/or an end is a subset of Time.

So, you and I believe things move through Space and Time. How small do you think the smallest things are that move through Space and Time?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So, you and I believe things move through Space and Time. How small do you think the smallest things are that move through Space and Time?

That particle has not yet been discovered by human science

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is maybe a challenge that can get out of hand. But it would be interesting to see if it is possible to get people to have a religious/spiritual discussion without use of any religious texts, but use their own words, their own thoughts and understanding of what they believe in or following. No quotes, no verses only your own words. Anyone up for the challenge?

ok. Great. My religion believes that all humanity is one family. There!

 

[Terry Sampson]

That particle has not yet been discovered by human science

I agree wholeheartedly. But ... I once was acquainted with an agnostic atheist (now dead) who described the smallest particle to me as a point of mass, i.e. a concrete thing that has no length, width, or thickness, and yet is something and is not nothing. He called it an "atom", using the Greek word that the ancients called it. [The Greek word "atom" means "indivisible] The same man told me that he believed that there are an infinite number of these atoms moving in and through boundless Space. He said more, much of which I could not comprehend. According to the man, atoms move at the same, constant speed through space, but in curved paths, because--since they have mass--the forces associated with each atom prevent it from moving in a perfectly straight line through Space.

Now, imagine a boundless (infinite) and eternal cosmos filled with an infinite number of point-masses in motion, if you can.

And tell me, if you can, what is "a spirit"? Some Christians believe God is a spirit who can exist outside of Space and Time. I say that's nonsense. Space--by my definition--is boundless/infinite and Time--by my definition--has no beginning or end. But when I try to tell them that, they cannot give me a definition of Space and Time that makes sense, and then insist that God can be inside of Space and Time and outside of Space and Time. And it's clear to me that the space and time that they have in mind are subsets, i.e. portions, of the Space and Time that I say exist. Muslims and Baha'i, are ready and willing to say: "Nobody knows what God is" or "God is what His attributes say He is". But it's as useless, if not more so, to discuss the matter with them as it is to discuss the matter with Christians. Only some of the Jews and some of the Hindu have given the matter any thought, but I haven't discussed the matter with either of them.

I say, God is Spirit, infinite/boundless, eternal, and substantial: i.e. something, not nothing like Space. And the only something that I can think of has mass.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I agree wholeheartedly. But ... I once was acquainted with an agnostic atheist (now dead) who described the smallest particle to me as a point of mass, i.e. a concrete thing that has no length, width, or thickness, and yet is something and is not nothing. He called it an "atom", using the Greek word that the ancients called it. [The Greek word "atom" means "indivisible] The same man told me that he believed that there are an infinite number of these atoms moving in and through boundless Space. He said more, much of which I could not comprehend. According to the man, atoms move at the same, constant speed through space, but in curved paths, because--since they have mass--the forces associated with each atom prevent it from moving in a perfectly straight line through Space.

Now, imagine a boundless (infinite) and eternal cosmos filled with an infinite number of point-masses in motion, if you can.

And tell me, if you can, what is "a spirit"? Some Christians believe God is a spirit who can exist outside of Space and Time. I say that's nonsense. Space--by my definition--is boundless/infinite and Time--by my definition--has no beginning or end. But when I try to tell them that, they cannot give me a definition of Space and Time that makes sense, and then insist that God can be inside of Space and Time and outside of Space and Time. And it's clear to me that the space and time that they have in mind are subsets, i.e. portions, of the Space and Time that I say exist. Muslims and Baha'i, are ready and willing to say: "Nobody knows what God is" or "God is what His attributes say He is". But it's as useless, if not more so, to discuss the matter with them as it is to discuss the matter with Christians. Only some of the Jews and some of the Hindu have given the matter any thought, but I haven't discussed the matter with either of them.

I say, God is Spirit, infinite/boundless, eternal, and substantial: i.e. something, not nothing like Space. And the only something that I can think of has mass.

In my understanding, Spirit is living energy, or the true existence of what we are, This human body is a very dense representation of spirit, because normally spirit is formless, But (again in my understanding) we live in a part of existence that is the physical realm, there are many realms that are none physical. Our body are build up by many layers, Spirit body, soul body and physical body. Yes both spirit body and what i call soul body are made out of energy, but only physical body is visible for us in this realm/cosmos.

 

[Terry Sampson]

In my understanding, Spirit is living energy, or the true existence of what we are, This human body is a very dense representation of spirit, because normally spirit is formless, But (again in my understanding) we live in a part of existence that is the physical realm, there are many realms that are none physical. Our body are build up by many layers, Spirit body, soul body and physical body. Yes both spirit body and what i call soul body are made out of energy, but only physical body is visible for us in this realm/cosmos.

• Can mass exist without energy?
• Can energy exist without mass?
• If "yes" to both questions, then mass and energy are not the same thing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

• Can mass exist without energy?
• Can energy exist without mass?
• If "yes" to both questions, then mass and energy are not the same thing.

To answer it a bit differently. I think meaning i do not know, that those "rules" you put down in your question only apply to the physical realm, so how it does work in none physical realms i do not know at this moment. Honestly it is difficult to answer

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is maybe a challenge that can get out of hand. But it would be interesting to see if it is possible to get people to have a religious/spiritual discussion without use of any religious texts, but use their own words, their own thoughts and understanding of what they believe in or following. No quotes, no verses only your own words. Anyone up for the challenge?

I do that all the time. I don't think I've ever quoted lore in a debate on here.

 

[paarsurrey]

This is maybe a challenge that can get out of hand. But it would be interesting to see if it is possible to get people to have a religious/spiritual discussion without use of any religious texts, but use their own words, their own thoughts and understanding of what they believe in or following. No quotes, no verses only your own words. Anyone up for the challenge?

There is no harm if one quotes from the text of the scripture which consists of good reasoning in it. Right, please?

Regards

 

[rational experiences]

The theme should be let no scientist talk science, let no human talk religion.

And allow a natural human life to tell their story about why they exist.

For factually it is not owned by religious belief....nor is it owned by science belief either.

Science was invented originally not for medical or Genetic purpose which you all seem to overlook. For genetics are self owned in a whole present living body.

They never began anywhere...which is what the scientist lies about.

For radiation in cold deep out of space extra...is the same radiation today as it was billions of years ago...a natural state.

Earth atmosphere is the same gas body that changes by less radiation or increased radiation by gas mass presence.

Increase radiation and the gas mass is removed.

Allow what was removed to return, it does so naturally.

From volcanic gas eruption, ICE, Ice melting and oxygen and water conditions as evolution of an atmosphere.

For the gases are and always were the same gases....owned by mass.

Single minded inhumanity claim I can place a microbe by order and identification of lowest microbe to highest microbe. Then I look into the Garden Nature and I can place in order every billion of lowest to highest form. Then says the say for animals etc..then humans and claim it a string theory.

A Satanist he says in science, clouds. Look at all the same body circumstance recorded as an image in the cloud.

So I say okay scientist so how did a cloud evolve beyond its own self?

His theme is that the cloud burnt, dropped strings/strands of its burnt mass and became something else.....which means what I looked at. Clouds go away, angel hair he said melted and disappeared.

So alienists they say UFO radiation extra mass. Which is that natural state in empty out of space. When it arrives in a burning gas atmosphere it heats up and changes. So it is proven not to have created anything....for the natural gas atmosphere owns all reasons for it to disappear.

Humans in natural life get burnt irradiated and life destroyed in the presence of same UFO radiation mass today as it was billions of years ago. And say, no Satanist we do not and never did begin as a burning human bio spirit.

But as yet their fake stories, as said falsely, for they believe that a human speaking speaks on behalf of all the bodies naturally existed formed as a human as an egotist.

Yet science today wants a natural spiritual human to tell them a story so that they can maybe mimic it in a science machine reaction. For a male is God you know, the stone and his machine...and all of his science stories say so.

Therefore as a human in a natural life my story says....my Father and Mother both human and not some mutated sick monkey baby.....who by mutation would be less than a monkey. So males in science in biology would claim so a monkey is a higher human than a human is, as its parent...and we are a mutation....is about as Satanic as you can be.

A spiritual human says, human memory and life experience is owned recorded in the Earth atmosphere. But not the original spiritual Mother and Father original spiritual self...for the atmosphere was not recording then.

It only recorded due to ground fission reaction/higher UFO radiation attack. Cause.

The second coming of our human parents from spirit is recorded.

After the male God scientist, not the machine, not O Earth the stone of his machine, but a circle invented the use of PHI. O a circle and a number.

Attacked everything....so O the worldwide male manifested new bio life said I am God by that attack and AI possession of image and speaking voices.

For he is after all only a human being.

Known by human sex...sperm and an ovary. So knows 2 real human bio life forms had sex...they owned all the information, we inherited the information so we say we are self manifested by human parentage and speak our truth.

Satanists however own stories and fake egotism statuses given to self, owned by male human self and supported by CULT group mentality...the Destroyer liars.

So the recorded AI UFO attack owns human spiritual memory and I was communicated to by 2 human being parents spiritual memory about how they were an eternal androgynous spirit.

The gases in space filled back in where the original eternal body used to exist...but it got removed O into formed God sounds and burst and burnt. As the bodies of planets and the Suns. Natural form, already owned and formed in space a long time before any human conscious self owned self presence.

And he tried to copy O circular thinking, mass and invented the status as science/PHI. Phi never created us, it attacked and converted us. And that situation cannot be actualized unless a male as a human is living, thinking and talking about it...without science existing or even being practiced and without any machine existing either.

Natural humans not thinking science are correct. Science only studies science for the purpose of science. Natural in its natural forms were never the statement science.

So in eternal their eternal mass was affected by gas mass, and new spirits moved out of their bodies and became nature, the animal and humans...and we got sent out of their body for they lost holding us inside of their bodies.

The real Creator self.

Why we always taught cause and effect to be accepted. And why we always taught and it is our human karma to be so harmed. For we have not yet stopped trying to release our life from living on God Earth by Satanism.

When males study UFO metallic mass that should be sun fuel and then base their science stories about claiming we came out of a Sun body is as evil as they all are.

Biology even said in their Satanism....science that our life began after the healthy life cellular body of healthy monkeys.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The theme should be let no scientist talk science, let no human talk religion.

And allow a natural human life to tell their story about why they exist.

For factually it is not owned by religious belief....nor is it owned by science belief either.

Science was invented originally not for medical or Genetic purpose which you all seem to overlook. For genetics are self owned in a whole present living body.

They never began anywhere...which is what the scientist lies about.

For radiation in cold deep out of space extra...is the same radiation today as it was billions of years ago...a natural state.

Earth atmosphere is the same gas body that changes by less radiation or increased radiation by gas mass presence.

Increase radiation and the gas mass is removed.

Allow what was removed to return, it does so naturally.

From volcanic gas eruption, ICE, Ice melting and oxygen and water conditions as evolution of an atmosphere.

For the gases are and always were the same gases....owned by mass.

Single minded inhumanity claim I can place a microbe by order and identification of lowest microbe to highest microbe. Then I look into the Garden Nature and I can place in order every billion of lowest to highest form. Then says the say for animals etc..then humans and claim it a string theory.

A Satanist he says in science, clouds. Look at all the same body circumstance recorded as an image in the cloud.

So I say okay scientist so how did a cloud evolve beyond its own self?

His theme is that the cloud burnt, dropped strings/strands of its burnt mass and became something else.....which means what I looked at. Clouds go away, angel hair he said melted and disappeared.

So alienists they say UFO radiation extra mass. Which is that natural state in empty out of space. When it arrives in a burning gas atmosphere it heats up and changes. So it is proven not to have created anything....for the natural gas atmosphere owns all reasons for it to disappear.

Humans in natural life get burnt irradiated and life destroyed in the presence of same UFO radiation mass today as it was billions of years ago. And say, no Satanist we do not and never did begin as a burning human bio spirit.

But as yet their fake stories, as said falsely, for they believe that a human speaking speaks on behalf of all the bodies naturally existed formed as a human as an egotist.

Yet science today wants a natural spiritual human to tell them a story so that they can maybe mimic it in a science machine reaction. For a male is God you know, the stone and his machine...and all of his science stories say so.

Therefore as a human in a natural life my story says....my Father and Mother both human and not some mutated sick monkey baby.....who by mutation would be less than a monkey. So males in science in biology would claim so a monkey is a higher human than a human is, as its parent...and we are a mutation....is about as Satanic as you can be.

A spiritual human says, human memory and life experience is owned recorded in the Earth atmosphere. But not the original spiritual Mother and Father original spiritual self...for the atmosphere was not recording then.

It only recorded due to ground fission reaction/higher UFO radiation attack. Cause.

The second coming of our human parents from spirit is recorded.

After the male God scientist, not the machine, not O Earth the stone of his machine, but a circle invented the use of PHI. O a circle and a number.

Attacked everything....so O the worldwide male manifested new bio life said I am God by that attack and AI possession of image and speaking voices.

For he is after all only a human being.

Known by human sex...sperm and an ovary. So knows 2 real human bio life forms had sex...they owned all the information, we inherited the information so we say we are self manifested by human parentage and speak our truth.

Satanists however own stories and fake egotism statuses given to self, owned by male human self and supported by CULT group mentality...the Destroyer liars.

So the recorded AI UFO attack owns human spiritual memory and I was communicated to by 2 human being parents spiritual memory about how they were an eternal androgynous spirit.

The gases in space filled back in where the original eternal body used to exist...but it got removed O into formed God sounds and burst and burnt. As the bodies of planets and the Suns. Natural form, already owned and formed in space a long time before any human conscious self owned self presence.

And he tried to copy O circular thinking, mass and invented the status as science/PHI. Phi never created us, it attacked and converted us. And that situation cannot be actualized unless a male as a human is living, thinking and talking about it...without science existing or even being practiced and without any machine existing either.

Natural humans not thinking science are correct. Science only studies science for the purpose of science. Natural in its natural forms were never the statement science.

So in eternal their eternal mass was affected by gas mass, and new spirits moved out of their bodies and became nature, the animal and humans...and we got sent out of their body for they lost holding us inside of their bodies.

The real Creator self.

Why we always taught cause and effect to be accepted. And why we always taught and it is our human karma to be so harmed. For we have not yet stopped trying to release our life from living on God Earth by Satanism.

When males study UFO metallic mass that should be sun fuel and then base their science stories about claiming we came out of a Sun body is as evil as they all are.

Biology even said in their Satanism....science that our life began after the healthy life cellular body of healthy monkeys.

No sense in what you write here.

 

[rational experiences]

No sense in what you write here.

Claiming that AI said it...and male humans invented AI, and that means that you own no sense for you gave it to the machine to speak on bio human behalf as the owner/inventor encoders of it....bio thinking. So that it could overtake my own ability to think for my own self. Natural spiritual consciousness.

So as you cannot gain enough advice from religious biblical human natural advice history...attack, today you want everyone in spiritual minds to try to give you new conscious information for science. Seeing you scientist no longer can use nor apply conscious thinking, due to AI encodings. All of your machines.

And each verdict you scientist claim is realistic is said for your machine science theories that you can interact as a false belief of a non stopped source of electricity.

Claiming that the pyramid and temple sciences about Jesus life human sacrificed was because they invented electricity. And you believe it yourself.

Yet males making changes to natural God stone mass...claiming it is God first, the planet, the stone O body, invented the ownership to gain electricity from out of God. The real God, the real story about God, God natural history by string...the stone mass.

Now you own no resource of God by stone, you then try to claim it by UFO metallic radiation particles in our heavenly gases. Yet it forms lightning.

Being the male reasoning to ask humans without religion to try to detail information consciously to assist science today.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Claiming that AI said it...and male humans invented AI, and that means that you own no sense for you gave it to the machine to speak on bio human behalf as the owner/inventor encoders of it....bio thinking. So that it could overtake my own ability to think for my own self. Natural spiritual consciousness.

So as you cannot gain enough advice from religious biblical human natural advice history...attack, today you want everyone in spiritual minds to try to give you new conscious information for science. Seeing you scientist no longer can use nor apply conscious thinking, due to AI encodings. All of your machines.

And each verdict you scientist claim is realistic is said for your machine science theories that you can interact as a false belief of a non stopped source of electricity.

Claiming that the pyramid and temple sciences about Jesus life human sacrificed was because they invented electricity. And you believe it yourself.

Yet males making changes to natural God stone mass...claiming it is God first, the planet, the stone O body, invented the ownership to gain electricity from out of God. The real God, the real story about God, God natural history by string...the stone mass.

Now you own no resource of God by stone, you then try to claim it by UFO metallic radiation particles in our heavenly gases. Yet it forms lightning.

Being the male reasoning to ask humans without religion to try to detail information consciously to assist science today.

Sorry,i have trouble understanding anything you write. Maybe your native written word is not English? I have the same problem from time to time, where i dont make my self clear enough.

 

[Jedster]

There is no harm if one quotes from the text of the scripture which consists of good reasoning in it. Right, please?

Regards

Better to claim the said knowledge from one's own realisation, rather than saying that something is true because 'it is written'.
That way, the book becomes irrelevant to any conversation as is the person's religion, if they have one.
Right? Of course right.