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God is everywhere; is God in Hell?

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
If I understood the Christian concept of purgatory, then it's more like that: a place to cleanse the soul from a life of sin. Once cleansed, the soul can move onward to a better place. It's painful, harsh, horrible - but better than nothing.

Interesting, I should note that the Catholic Church does not actually teach anyone is in the state of hell (it's a state of being, not a place) but merely says it's a possibility someone or some people might have cut themselves off so much from morality as to be in this condition when they die. We don't know for certain if anyone actually has.

However, the Pope before the current one - Benedict XVI - argued in a 2007 encyclical Spe Salvi that the vast majority of people (maybe, hopefully, every person) would in all probability experience purgatory after death (albeit, to a wide range of degrees dependent on their ethical decisions in life) and so ultimately reach a purified enough state to experience the full joy of the Beatific Vision (heaven).

I like to think he's right about that, so the Rabbinic Jewish doctrine you describe may be the most correct one in the end!
 
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Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
If I understood the Christian concept of purgatory, then it's more like that: a place to cleanse the soul from a life of sin. Once cleansed, the soul can move onward to a better place. It's painful, harsh, horrible - but better than nothing.

Right! :lightbulb::)
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Good answers, folks, interesting. Not the answers I expected. ;)
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, is he? For those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and believe in Hell, especially a literal one, is God there? I don't think it matters if Hell is literal or figurative. It's a place where condemned and punished souls are sent by God. Even if Hell is separation from God, where do the souls go? Is God not there also. Please explain the seeming paradox to me. How can an omnipotent and omnipresent God not be somewhere. To me, that negates God’s omni-everything. So, given that God is everywhere, as we were taught by Sister Mary Discipline of the Sisters of No Mercy, is God in Hell along with the tortured souls he sentenced there? Does he exist there?
Everything has to have an opposite. There cannot be good without bad. I know of no scripture that says God is omnipresent. There must be somewhere to go for those who cannot belong with God.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Everything has to have an opposite. There cannot be good without bad. I know of no scripture that says God is omnipresent. There must be somewhere to go for those who cannot belong with God.

I don’t know where the omnipresent idea came from other than the nuns in Sunday school. It may have been some kind of scare tactic.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
It's My Birthday!
Good question , I think we don't have abality to answer except because we are not Gods.
It's like trying to convince a trees that there something could move.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
We usually have to scream at them to get their attention.
Being in need is a good start to get God going

Once it took God quite a while to reach me, I thought of Him being in India. Lucky me it was not New Zealand (double distance)

Nowadays I only need to listen, "God" is just there
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Well, is he? For those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and believe in Hell, especially a literal one, is God there? I don't think it matters if Hell is literal or figurative. It's a place where condemned and punished souls are sent by God. Even if Hell is separation from God, where do the souls go? Is God not there also. Please explain the seeming paradox to me. How can an omnipotent and omnipresent God not be somewhere. To me, that negates God’s omni-everything. So, given that God is everywhere, as we were taught by Sister Mary Discipline of the Sisters of No Mercy, is God in Hell along with the tortured souls he sentenced there? Does he exist there?
Really creative. Sublime thread.

Christian Hell finally eliminated:D
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Being in need is a good start to get God going

Once it took God quite a while to reach me, I thought of Him being in India. Lucky me it was not New Zealand (double distance)

Nowadays I only need to listen, "God" is just there

That's the thing... we don't shut up long enough for him to answer. He can hardly get a word in edgewise.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I don’t know where the omnipresent idea came from other than the nuns in Sunday school. It may have been some kind of scare tactic.

Nope, the nuns at your Sunday school were on-point so far as Catholic doctrine is concerned (and St. Angela of Foligno explains it well in that quotation from my last post).

The concept of the divine omnipresence is basically the Abrahamic cognate to the Dharmic Brahman:


"It has hands and feet everywhere, and eyes, heads and faces everywhere, and It is possessed of ears everywhere. It exists among all the creatures, pervading all. "

(Svetasvatara Upanishad 3.16)​



It is originally derived from verses in certain books of the Bible (both Old and New Testament):


"You love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it....For your immortal spirit is in all things" (Wisdom 11:24, 12:1)

"The Lord’s Spirit fills the whole world. It holds everything together and knows what everyone says" (Wisdom 1:7)

(The Book of Wisdom is only in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, as part of the OT Deuterocanon, not Jewish or Protestant Hebrew Bible).


St. Paul's famous statement to the Athenians:


"For in him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28)​

"For by him all things were created … He is before all things and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1.16-17)

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11 ESV)


As the old Catholic Baltimore catechism taught millions of bored American kids at Jesuit school in the 19th century (1891 Version):


~Baltimore Catechism #3 : Lesson 2~

Q. 166. Where is God?

A. God is everywhere.


Q. 167. How is God everywhere?

A. God is everywhere whole and entire as He is in any one place. This is true and we must believe it, though we cannot understand it.


Q. 168. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?

A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.

 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
However, the Pope before the current one - Benedict XVI - argued in a 2007 encyclical Spe Salvi that the vast majority of people (maybe, hopefully, every person) would in all probability experience purgatory after death (albeit, to a wide range of degrees dependent on their ethical decisions in life) and so ultimately reach a purified enough state to experience the full joy of the Beatific Vision (heaven).
I've actually come to view this existence here in this world, as purgatory. One can live life in such a way as to experience heaven here in this life, where they have let go of all that hid God and Joy from them. In this life, we can either find God and our release from suffering; or not wake up and just keep living the illusion over and over again, finding what light can penetrate through to them in occasional moments, neither truly knowing Joy, nor misery; or they are so self-consumed that they see no Light at all, but only greedily consume the world for themselves and die without any Love known to them. In other words, it's here and now we are "working out our salvation".

That to me sounds a lot like purgatory, unless there is something I'm missing?
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Nope, the nuns at your Sunday school were on-point so far as Catholic doctrine is concerned (and St. Angela of Foligno explains it well in that quotation from my last post).

The concept of the divine omnipresence is basically the Abrahamic cognate to the Dharmic Brahman:


"It has hands and feet everywhere, and eyes, heads and faces everywhere, and It is possessed of ears everywhere. It exists among all the creatures, pervading all. "

(Svetasvatara Upanishad 3.16)​



It is originally derived from verses in certain books of the Bible (both Old and New Testament):


"You love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it....For your immortal spirit is in all things" (Wisdom 11:24, 12:1)

"The Lord’s Spirit fills the whole world. It holds everything together and knows what everyone says" (Wisdom 1:7)

(The Book of Wisdom is only in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, as part of the OT Deuterocanon, not Jewish or Protestant Hebrew Bible).


St. Paul's famous statement to the Athenians:


"For in him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28)​

"For by him all things were created … He is before all things and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1.16-17)

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11 ESV)


As the old Catholic Baltimore catechism taught millions of bored American kids at Jesuit school in the 19th century (1891 Version):


~Baltimore Catechism #3 : Lesson 2~

Q. 166. Where is God?

A. God is everywhere.


Q. 167. How is God everywhere?

A. God is everywhere whole and entire as He is in any one place. This is true and we must believe it, though we cannot understand it.


Q. 168. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?

A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.


Thanks, I knew it had to come from somewhere. I remember a small gray book we had to study for Confirmation. The bishop would ask random questions and we had to answer. If no one raised their hand, he'd pick someone. But I digress. :D
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, is he? For those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and believe in Hell, especially a literal one, is God there? I don't think it matters if Hell is literal or figurative. It's a place where condemned and punished souls are sent by God. Even if Hell is separation from God, where do the souls go? Is God not there also. Please explain the seeming paradox to me. How can an omnipotent and omnipresent God not be somewhere. To me, that negates God’s omni-everything. So, given that God is everywhere, as we were taught by Sister Mary Discipline of the Sisters of No Mercy, is God in Hell along with the tortured souls he sentenced there? Does he exist there?

God is above heaven and hell.

All we can know of God is the Holy Spirit, which we see in this world as the Attributes of the Messengers.

Hell is the lack of those attributes.

Regards Tony
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Well, is he? For those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and believe in Hell, especially a literal one, is God there? I don't think it matters if Hell is literal or figurative. It's a place where condemned and punished souls are sent by God. Even if Hell is separation from God, where do the souls go? Is God not there also. Please explain the seeming paradox to me. How can an omnipotent and omnipresent God not be somewhere. To me, that negates God’s omni-everything. So, given that God is everywhere, as we were taught by Sister Mary Discipline of the Sisters of No Mercy, is God in Hell along with the tortured souls he sentenced there? Does he exist there?

What's the problem with God being in Hell? It is His creation.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I've actually come to view this existence here in this world, as purgatory. One can live life in such a way as to experience heaven here in this life, where they have let go of all that hid God and Joy from them. In this life, we can either find God and our release from suffering; or not wake up and just keep living the illusion over and over again, finding what light can penetrate through to them in occasional moments, neither truly knowing Joy, nor misery; or they are so self-consumed that they see no Light at all, but only greedily consume the world for themselves and die without any Love known to them. In other words, it's here and now we are "working out our salvation".

That to me sounds a lot like purgatory, unless there is something I'm missing?

An interesting reflection.

In Catholic doctrine, purgatory is primarily associated with a postmortem state of moral purification - an intermediate state of being, or condition, for souls who are not 'damned' but nevertheless require spiritual cleansing, through a sort of life review in which they come to reckon / mortify themselves of guilt or regret accumulated during their life - which makes them ready to experience the Beatific Vision (the sight of God's Essence, unmediated, in heaven).

Praying for the departed souls of the dead is an important practice in Catholicism. In churches, we often light candles before or after Mass for our deceased relatives and friends, or have special Masses / public prayers during Mass offered up in their honour.

The Feast of All Souls Day is particularly concerned with this dogma and its associated practices. In terms of origin, the source is originally biblical - in the deuterocanonical Old Testament book of Maccabees (only in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles):


"It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (2 Maccabees 12:46)


We do this because we believe these loved ones are likely in the state of purgatory and that our prayers / good thoughts / deeds are efficacious and that the grace can reach them in this state (due to the concept of the "communion of saints, in which the living and the dead are still in communion - in a manner unknown to us - through God in whom we all, living and dead, have our being).

However, it is true to say that this process begins in our earthly life.

St. Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), renowned for the important theological insights set forth in her Treatise on Purgatory, experienced purgatory in this life for 25 years (during which she also found herself in synergy with the departed souls in the afterlife purgatory and had visions of them, according to her works):


Catholic Treasury | Treatise on Purgatory


"This holy soul, while still in the flesh, was placed in the purgatory of the burning love of God, in whose flames she was purified from every stain, so that when she passed from this life she might be ready to enter the presence of God, her most sweet love.

By means of that flame of love she comprehended in her own soul the condition of the souls of the faithful in purgatory, where they are purified from the rust and stain of sins, from which they have not been cleansed in this world.

And as in the purgatory of that divine flame she was united with the divine love and satisfied with all that was accomplished in her, she was enabled to comprehend the state of the souls in purgatory.

"The soul”, Catherine says, “presents itself to God still bound to the desires and suffering that derive from sin and this makes it impossible for it to enjoy the beatific vision of God

After life on earth the soul remains confirmed, either in good or in evil. Hence the souls in purgatory are confirmed in grace…The souls in purgatory have perfect conformity with the will of God…Hell and purgatory manifest the wonderful wisdom of God. The separated soul goes naturally to its own state. The soul in the state of sin, finding no place more suitable, throws itself of its own accord into hell. And the soul which is not yet ready for divine union, casts itself voluntarily into purgatory. Heaven has no gates. Whoever will can enter there, because God is all goodness. But the divine essence is so pure that the soul, finding in itself obstacles, prefers to enter purgatory, and there to find in mercy the removal of the impediment…”
(The Doctrine of Catherine of Genoa).


So, I don't see it as a matter of "and/or".

For some people, who have died in a state of grace (that is, without any serious violations of conscience), their purgatorial journey is not yet complete on earth. They need 'time' - although not in the sense of terrestrial time - to reckon with the life just lived and heal from the leftover psychological pain, regret and sorrow for things they got wrong, perhaps with the ability to see experiences from the perspective of the "other person" or other people they might have wronged or misunderstood in some way.

Heaven, Purgatory and Hell are spiritual states of being (as opposed to physical locations) that occupy no location in space and are even apart from time as well, with the souls of the deceased thought (according to time-honoured, theological speculation) to exist in something mysterious called “aeviternity”.

It entails a mode of existence which is a form of “participated eternity". It lies between the timelessness of God and the temporal experience of material beings - to us, for all intents and purposes, it is akin to “no-time” - although this isn't strictly true.

One can expect that most human beings will first undergo purgatory after death, since it seems apparent to the majority of theologians that a sizeable chunk of humanity is neither wilfully evil nor particularly saintly.

Terrestrial “time” is not part of the doctrine of Purgatory either. Here is what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in 1988 (before he became Pope Benedict XVI):


“…The transforming ‘moment’ of this encounter [Purgatory] cannot be quantified by the measurements of earthly time. It is, indeed, not eternal but a transition, and yet trying to qualify it as of ‘short’ or ‘long’ duration on the basis of temporal measurements derived from physics would be naive and unproductive. The ‘temporal measure’ of this encounter lies in the unsoundable depths of existence, in a passing-over where we are burned ere we are transformed. To measure such Existenzzeit, such an ‘existential time,’ in terms of the time of this world would be to ignore the specificity of the human spirit in its simultaneous relationship with, and differentation from, the world…”

(Ratzinger, Eschatology, p. 230)


His Holiness reiterated the same point in his 2007 encyclical Spe Salvi:


Spe salvi (November 30, 2007) | BENEDICT XVI


The fire of Purgatory which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away…

It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace…

46. With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell. On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours—people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are.

46. Yet we know from experience that neither case is normal in human life. For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul.
 
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God exists everywhere because he is merciful. Therefore, his existence is in the present as well as past tense because God is universal.

How could the others exist without the other?

Exactly, not at all. I perceive hell as the imbalance and heaven the balanced imperfection of all the life-lessons. This is why a few embody the perfection of imperfection. Just because some go to hell doesn't mean they belong there. This is why God exists in hell mutually in heaven. For those who do not belong there intentionally, he will make it possible to lift them up towards a heavenly path.

This is only how I perceive it and I hope it was enlightening for you.

I am here to serve your soul.”

With Love
Lynette
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
What's the problem with God being in Hell? It is His creation.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Not a problem. It was a curiosity that seems to go against the largely dualistic beliefs of most of Christianity.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Well, is he? For those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and believe in Hell, especially a literal one, is God there? I don't think it matters if Hell is literal or figurative. It's a place where condemned and punished souls are sent by God. Even if Hell is separation from God, where do the souls go? Is God not there also. Please explain the seeming paradox to me. How can an omnipotent and omnipresent God not be somewhere. To me, that negates God’s omni-everything. So, given that God is everywhere, as we were taught by Sister Mary Discipline of the Sisters of No Mercy, is God in Hell along with the tortured souls he sentenced there? Does he exist there?
Scriptures indicate that God is present even there. (see Psalm 139) If everything is digital or rendered reality. Then it's not so much that God is everywhere; as it is that everywhere is present to God. Meaning time and space are not factors.
 

3rdAngel

Well-Known Member
Well, is he? For those who believe in an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God and believe in Hell, especially a literal one, is God there? I don't think it matters if Hell is literal or figurative. It's a place where condemned and punished souls are sent by God. Even if Hell is separation from God, where do the souls go? Is God not there also. Please explain the seeming paradox to me. How can an omnipotent and omnipresent God not be somewhere. To me, that negates God’s omni-everything. So, given that God is everywhere, as we were taught by Sister Mary Discipline of the Sisters of No Mercy, is God in Hell along with the tortured souls he sentenced there? Does he exist there?
I believe that there is no such thing as the Catholic teaching of Hell. It is not biblical.
 
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