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Does having religious beliefs make a person more moral than someone who is an atheist

Religious moral codes are external, like crutches. You need not develop strength or balance if you're using crutches.

Err, that's pretty much the *exact* point of crutches: to help you build strength and balance :D

Anyway, our morality is far more reliant on culture and intuition than it is on our own reasoning and 'freethinking' so we are all very much reliant on cultural and ideological 'crutches'.

Not to mention that most of what we term "Western values" emerged in a specifically Christian context over many centuries suggesting that crutches may indeed help you develop strength and balance after all (if you think today's morality is better than that of the past at least).
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Err, that's pretty much the *exact* point of crutches: to help you build strength and balance :D

Anyway, our morality is far more reliant on culture and intuition than it is on our own reasoning and 'freethinking' so we are all very much reliant on cultural and ideological 'crutches'.

Not to mention that most of what we term "Western values" emerged in a specifically Christian context over many centuries suggesting that crutches may indeed help you develop strength and balance after all (if you think today's morality is better than that of the past at least).

Let's just pretend as if many of our present core western morals and values, wouldn't be considered heretic / blasphemous in strictly christian doctrine?

I think it is somewhat of a common public lie that our secular democratic morals and values emerged from, or are based on, christianity. I'ld rather say that they are based on humanism.

For many of the "values" / rights we take for granted today, people like to pretend as if they are derived from christianity... Totally ignoring that for the better part of western history under the rule of christian theocracy, those things would have been unthinkable. To the point of even earning you a death sentence.

People tend to forget that in large part, our humanistic secular democracies were born in large part out of kicking the church out of public life and government.

Obviously, our judeo-christian background has had an enormous influence on our culture. And sure, some, perhaps even many, of things considered good are an extension of that.

But let's also not forget all the nasty bits... Humanism kept the good and replaced the bad with better, non-christian, things.

That can be done with any religion, not just christianity.

So I think it's unfair to hold christianity up as some kind of catalyst or source for moral values in today's world.

No, the morality of humanism is by and large the work of thinking humans and moral development. In spite of religious backgrounds.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And yet religions are filled with people who do not accept their moral dictates fully or in their entirety. So clearly, they are not being "programmed".

Clearly they are being programed, albeit incompletely. It's where so many theists learn to despise atheists. This thread is a testimony to that. It was intended to depict atheists as relatively immoral. Why do theists feel the need to attack those who have escaped religion?

Yet the church is incessantly trying to get to young people before they learn to think critically. Christianity depends on it. It was a huge loss for them when they were booted out of the public schools.

“Give me the child until he is seven and I'll give you the man” - St. Francis Xavier

The church understands what it is doing even if you don't.

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools until high school and I can say for sure that no one 'indoctrinated' me, nor any of the other kids I went to school with.

Where did you learn that all atheists are liars? Who trained you to be so frustrated at those who are uninterested in following you in your theistic path?

I repeat: “Give me the child until he is seven and I'll give you the man” - St. Francis Xavier

all you seem to see are the cultish extremes in places like the Bible belt

We see it right here on RF. We know what the spectrum of religions and their adherents looks like. What you are calling cultish extremes is mainstream American Christianity.

I saw a nice show on TV yesterday about a family of Jehovah's Witnesses that chose to send their children to college and were shunned by their church for it. The mom ended up becoming severely depressed, and killed her entire family and then herself because she believed that Armageddon was at hand and that if she and her family weren't already dead by then, they wouldn't make heaven (the article linked to doesn't explain that, but the show did).

"A Michigan woman who fatally shot her husband, their two adult children, then turned the gun on herself in their home on Friday was driven to the point of no-return because she was shunned by her local Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall after she decided she wanted her children to attend college" Woman Who Killed Self, Entire Family Was Shunned by Jehovah's Witnesses for Sending Kids to College

The news is full of bad religion. It's hardly extreme. Look at the results of the 2016 American election. 81% of white Christian evangelicals voted for a bigoted, racist, vengeful, narcissistic, bully and compulsive liar, a self-admitted serial sexual predator. a serial adulterer, a lifetime fraud and cheat, and now add murderer. That's hardly extreme Christians. Those are mainstream Christians - millions of them - being churned out by the churches on every corner of Americana into the neighborhoods. That's the damage that religion and its moral instruction have done to America coast-to-coast.

What kind of people would vote for this?
  • “For many years I’ve said that if someone screws you, screw them back. When somebody hurts you, just go after them as viciously and as violently as you can.” - Donald Trump
Christians, that's who - by the millions.

What fraction of secular humanists were thusly indoctrinated and voted that irresponsibly? According to this poll, 12 out of 1596 self-identifying secular humanist made that unconscionable choice. If the categories are extended to include people self-identifying as agnostic, atheist, freethinker, etc., the ratio of Trump voters is 91 out of 5242, under 2%.

We didn't do that to America. American Christians did, with a little help from the American-hating Putin, also a staunch Trump advocate. So the Christians have a kindred spirit there.

Atheists that I know don’t seem to have any problem to lie and their good and right seems to change by emotions and by what is beneficial for them. I don’t think there can be any more superficial morality than that.

The worst imaginable moral system comes right out of Christianity, and is called divine command theory, which is defined as "a meta-ethical theory which proposes that an action's status as morally good is equivalent to whether it is commanded by God." This has got to be the worst idea in all of moral philosophy. According to that, if you can convince a person that his god has ordered him to hate atheists, or gouge the eyeballs out of kittens, for example, then it becomes immoral not to do so, which is probably your position.

I challenge you to find a worse moral idea than that. That's a complete abdication of one's responsibility to be a moral agent. One is simply deferring to what he or she was told some god wants them to do.

Isn't that the reason all of those low information Christian voters went for the monster? They thought it was God's will to have a president to pack the courts with Christian-friendly judges, so they voted badly and damaged their country - again (cf 2000).
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I heard atheists argue atheists are just as moral as theists. But I am not sure this is true in general. Many scientists work on weapons designed to destroy humanity. Scientists are mostly atheists, and many scientists are engineering weapons of mass death. Then can I conclude there something inherently missing from the way atheists believe?
You write this as if these atheist scientists operate in a vacuum - they just, for kicks, I guess, design or otherwise concoct weapons of mass destruction and the like.


In real life, those folks work FOR elected officials, who are - and who love to proclaim - Christians.

Your premise, being incorrect, refutes your conclusion.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Then they are working as engineers during that assignment.
During the Manhattan Project, for example, they also
did basic research. But to encroach upon the field, &
do a little engineering, does not an engineer make.
And for some, the fields blur together.

An example...
A friend from school got his PhD in physics, & went
on to manage the Star Wars program under Reagan.
He was a scientist (theoretical physicist who did no
engineering) who was nonetheless responsible for
weapon design.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
During the Manhattan Project, for example, they also
did basic research. But to encroach upon the field, &
do a little engineering, does not an engineer make.
And for some, the fields blur together.

An example...
A friend from school got his PhD in physics, & went
on to manage the Star Wars program under Reagan.
He was a scientist (theoretical physicist who did no
engineering) who was nonetheless responsible for
weapon design.

Sure. But it's still engineering.

However, it's besides the main point anyway in response to the OP. No matter if they should be called scientists or engineers...

The main point is: who commissioned these projects? Who funds them?

Is it the scientist / engineer?
Or is it some politician or governmental department?


It reminds me of this event of Neil deGrass Tyson with Stephen Colbert.
Colbert asked Tyson if it bothers him that in movies, it's always the "evil scientist" that is the bad guy.

It's "the scientist" that builds the weapon that destroys the world. Or it's "the scientist" that builds Skynet (terminator). Or it's "the scientists" that build the death star or death ray or what-have you.

Tyson's hilarious reply: "You know... at the end of such movies, when all is said and done and the smoke clears.... it was a politician that was funding that research". :D

And it's true off course. If it wasn't for US politicians commissioning it, the US would NOT have a nuclear arsenal of +10.000 nukes.

So it's incredibly dishonest of the OP to pretend as if it's "the scientist" that is responsible for this.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Sure. But it's still engineering.

However, it's besides the main point anyway in response to the OP. No matter if they should be called scientists or engineers...

The main point is: who commissioned these projects? Who funds them?

Is it the scientist / engineer?
Or is it some politician or governmental department?


It reminds me of this event of Neil deGrass Tyson with Stephen Colbert.
Colbert asked Tyson if it bothers him that in movies, it's always the "evil scientist" that is the bad guy.

It's "the scientist" that builds the weapon that destroys the world. Or it's "the scientist" that builds Skynet (terminator). Or it's "the scientists" that build the death star or death ray or what-have you.

Tyson's hilarious reply: "You know... at the end of such movies, when all is said and done and the smoke clears.... it was a politician that was funding that research". :D

And it's true off course. If it wasn't for US politicians commissioning it, the US would NOT have a nuclear arsenal of +10.000 nukes.

So it's incredibly dishonest of the OP to pretend as if it's "the scientist" that is responsible for this.
Is the creator of a tool responsible for actions of others who use the tool they created?
For those who claim it is, why is not god to blame for creating people?
 
Let's just pretend as if many of our present core western morals and values, wouldn't be considered heretic / blasphemous in strictly christian doctrine?

No idea what 'strictly Christian doctrine' is, but we can look at the history of how they emerged over many centuries often explicitly based on Christian doctrine


I think it is somewhat of a common public lie that our secular democratic morals and values emerged from, or are based on, christianity. I'ld rather say that they are based on humanism.

And where did humanism come from?

For many of the "values" / rights we take for granted today, people like to pretend as if they are derived from christianity... Totally ignoring that for the better part of western history under the rule of christian theocracy, those things would have been unthinkable. To the point of even earning you a death sentence.

The 'better part of Western history' didn't happen under a Christian theocracy, and these values emerged over 1500+ years.

People tend to forget that in large part, our humanistic secular democracies were born in large part out of kicking the church out of public life and government.

The separation of "church and state" (read religion and politics) emerged in a Christian context. It didn;t exist in pre-Christian Europe, and didn't exist in the majority of other belief systems either.

Going back many centuries to the conflicts between Emperor Henry IV and Gregory XII and Emperor Louis IV and Pope John XXII you get a division between secular and religious authority.

And scholars such as Marsilius of Padua:

The tract Defensor pacis (The Defender of Peace) laid the foundations of modern doctrines of sovereignty. It was written by Marsilius of Padua (Italian: Marsilio da Padova), an Italian medieval scholar. It appeared in 1324 and provoked a storm of controversy that lasted through the century. The context of the work lies in the political struggle between Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor and Pope John XXII. The treatise is vehemently anticlerical. Marsilius' work was censured by Pope Benedict XII and Pope Clement VI.

Defensor pacis extends the tradition of Dante's De Monarchia separating the secular State from religious authority. It affirmed the sovereignty of the people and civil law and sought to greatly limit the power of the Papacy, which he viewed as the "cause of the trouble which prevails among men" and which he characterized as a "fictitious" power. He proposed the seizure of church property by civil authority and the elimination of tithes. In his view, the Papacy would retain only an honorary pre-eminence without any authority to interpret the scriptures or define dogma.

Defensor pacis - Wikipedia

In Defensor pacis, Marsilius sought to demonstrate, by arguments from reason (in Dictio I of the text) and by argument from authority (in Dictio II) the independence of the Holy Roman Empire from the Papacy and the emptiness of the prerogatives alleged to have been usurped by the Roman pontiffs. A number of Marsilius's views were declared to be heretical by Pope John XXII in 1327.[4]

Most of Defensor pacis is devoted to theology. Relying heavily on Scripture, Marsilius seeks to show that Jesus did not claim to possess any temporal power and that he did not intend his church to exercise any.[5] On the contrary, Scripture teaches that the church should be thoroughly subordinate to the state in both secular and spiritual matters. All authority in the church lies with the whole body of the faithful, the secular ruler who acts as the people's representative, and general councils called by the secular ruler.[6] Some of Marsilius's arguments on these themes had a marked influence during the Reformation.[7]

Today, Marsilius's Defensor pacis is best remembered not for its theology but for its political philosophy and legal theory. Marsilius agrees with Aristotle that the purpose of government is the rational fulfillment of humans' natural desire for a "sufficient life".[8] However, he goes beyond Aristotle in embracing a form of republicanism that views the people as the only legitimate source of political authority. Sovereignty lies with the people, and the people should elect, correct, and, if necessary, depose its political leaders.[7] Democracy, Marsilius argues, is the best form of government because it tends to produce the wisest laws, protects the common benefit, promotes "sufficiency of life", and produces laws that are most likely to be obeyed.[9]

Marsilius of Padua - Wikipedia

But let's also not forget all the nasty bits... Humanism kept the good and replaced the bad with better, non-christian, things.

That can be done with any religion, not just christianity.

Yet strangely enough it didn't really happen in all of these other religions, and humanism is remains largely the preserve of the post-Christian West.

We could think about the 'nasty bits' of the Enlightenment too, but that doesn't negate the positive contributions.

So I think it's unfair to hold christianity up as some kind of catalyst or source for moral values in today's world.

Humanism didn't emerge from a vacuum, so we look at the society in which it emerged.

An overview here if you are interested: Review - Tom Holland "Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind" - History for Atheists

No, the morality of humanism is by and large the work of thinking humans and moral development.

Humanists tend to think that their values are 'natural' and 'universal' and that they had to emerge due to 'progress' (the Idea of Progress also has roots in Christianity, as noted even by Enlightenment atheists like Condorcet), but they are grounded in myth as all ideological systems are.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it is somewhat of a common public lie that our secular democratic morals and values emerged from, or are based on, christianity. I'ld rather say that they are based on humanism.

Good post. I agree completely. The first two bullet points in the Affirmations of Humanism basically deny the Christian method
  • We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
  • We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
I've had this discussion with this poster before: Dislike and distrust of atheists?

He seems unmovably committed to the idea that humanism is an outgrowth of Christianity rather than a repudiation of it.

For many of the "values" / rights we take for granted today, people like to pretend as if they are derived from christianity... Totally ignoring that for the better part of western history under the rule of christian theocracy, those things would have been unthinkable. To the point of even earning you a death sentence.

How often are we told that owe a debt to Christianity for our moral code, the American Constitution with its rights and freedoms, and the advent of science, all of which are repudiations of the "gifts" of Christianity and the Middle Ages.

We are told that our rights are God-given, yet man languished for millennia without them. These rights, which appear nowhere in the Bible - just commands to submit and obey - were enumerated by men, fought for by men, defended by men, enforced by men, interpreted by men, and amended by men. No god was involved, and many people still do not have these rights, and never will if they're waiting for a god to help them get them. Rights come from people.

There was certainly an influence, but I don't see any lasting contributions coming from Christianity, certainly not in the moral realm. Wherever my personal values resemble a Christian value, it didn't come from the Bible. I don't need a book to tell me that stealing and murdering are bad choices.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...According to that, if you can convince a person that his god has ordered him to hate atheists, or gouge the eyeballs out of kittens, for example, then it becomes immoral not to do so, which is probably your position.
...

My position is that people should be righteous. And if person is righteous, he loves others and hates lies as it is said in the Bible. And if he loves, he doesn’t do anything evil to others.

... the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom,
Pro. 10:31

The thoughts of the righteous are just, But the advice of the wicked is deceitful… … A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel… … A righteous person is cautious in friendship, But the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Pro. 12:5,10,26

A righteous man hates lies,
Pro. 13:5

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...You can never make assessments about who is moral and who is not based on their faith or non-faith sentiments whatsoever. Unless we are bigots and in that case what we may need is treatment.

That sounds quite evil.

I think it is possible to make some assessments. Christian means originally a disciple of Jesus. They have the teachings of Jesus and should live accordingly. Atheists don’t have anything like that. There is no God or Jesus for atheist to tell how to live. So, we can make the assessment that atheist’s moral is not based on the teachings of Jesus. And that means one should be prepared to anything.
 
I've had this discussion with this poster before: Dislike and distrust of atheists?

He seems unmovably committed to the idea that humanism is an outgrowth of Christianity rather than a repudiation of it.

I was unmovably committed to your views until I actually started reading scholarly historical sources on the issue. Then I pretty quickly realised most of the stuff I thought was true quite obviously isn't.

How often are we told that owe a debt to Christianity for our moral code, the American Constitution with its rights and freedoms, and the advent of science, all of which are repudiations of the "gifts" of Christianity and the Middle Ages.

You are promoting the Conflict Thesis despite the fact that basically all modern secular scholars reject it as total nonsense.

Even the first paragraph of Wikipedia will tell you this:

The conflict thesis is a historiographical approach in the history of science that originated in the 19th century which maintains that there is an intrinsic intellectual conflict between religion and science and that it inevitably leads to hostility.[1] Most examples and interpretations of events in support of the thesis have been drawn from Western history. Historians of science have long ago rejected the thesis[2][3][4][5] and have instead widely accepted a complexity thesis.[6] Nonetheless, the thesis "remains strong elsewhere, not least in the popular mind."[6]

This is the problem with 'rational' Secular Humanists, they have been fed so much BS, reinforced by the most terrible groupthink, that they think any correction of this is some terrible bias.

There are few areas I can think of where 'common knowledge' is so out of step with the views of expert scholars as this.

As a non-expert who normatively believes in evidence, reason and scholarship, what makes you so confident that you are right, and basically all experts who actually do know the primary sources and have spent years studying this issue are wrong?

Given that this includes experts of all religious backgrounds as well as irreligious ones, wouldn't the most rational explanation be that it is in fact your bias that clouds your judgement on this?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
There was certainly an influence, but I don't see any lasting contributions coming from Christianity, certainly not in the moral realm. Wherever my personal values resemble a Christian value, it didn't come from the Bible. I don't need a book to tell me that stealing and murdering are bad choices.
To be fair, humanism was first a (heretical) movement within Christianity. Not that there really was an outside of the church in the 18th century. Secular humanism is an invention of the 20th century.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Christian means originally a disciple of Jesus.
"Christian" means nothing. You can have a liberal Lutheran and a fundamentalist Southern Baptist who wouldn't agree on anything but call themselves Christians.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
"Christian" means nothing. You can have a liberal Lutheran and a fundamentalist Southern Baptist who wouldn't agree on anything but call themselves Christians.
I agree.
However, both of them have Jesus in their accepted hierarchy....
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As a non-expert who normatively believes in evidence, reason and scholarship, what makes you so confident that you are right

We've been through all of this before in great detail and at great length. I gave you my reasons then. I don't have anything to add now not said then, I know your views, you know mine, and neither of us convinced the pother.

If you'd like to go back to the thread linked to above, and this one below, you can reread the entire discussion https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/video-about-problems-with-atheism.197981/page-11#post-5188965

Thanks for your interest.
 
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We've been through all of this before in great detail and at great length. I gave you my reasons then. I don't have anything to add now not said then, I know your views, you know mine, and neither of us convinced the pother.

That's on a different topic. I was asking a far more limited question about the Conflict Thesis, which you promote despite it being uniformly rejected as completely untenable by modern scholars (as even something as basic as Wikipedia clearly notes).

The source of humanistic ethics is at least debatable, although the idea that theologians engaged scriptural exegesis and theological argumentation were in fact 'repudiating' religion does seem a bit fanciful to me. But, if someone stridently promotes something as obviously wrong as the Conflict Thesis, there is little point in addressing far more complex issues as it illustrates their position is purely ideological and not open to being changed by evidence or reason.

Humanists claim to be advocates of reason, yet on anything to do with religion wear their anti-intellectualism and contempt for secular academic scholarly expertise like a badge of honour. The incongruence between stated principles and observable behaviour is quite funny really.

On other threads, they will no doubt they will be incredulous towards religious fundies dismissing secular scholarly consensus out of hand for reasons of emotion and uncritical ideological belief, yet never notice that they are equally guilty of this behaviour. The wonders of the compartmentalised mind :grinning:

I was just wondering if you have a rational reason why you consider yourself to be correct on the Conflict Thesis and all the actual experts to be wrong.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
That sounds quite evil.

I think it is possible to make some assessments. Christian means originally a disciple of Jesus. They have the teachings of Jesus and should live accordingly. Atheists don’t have anything like that. There is no God or Jesus for atheist to tell how to live. So, we can make the assessment that atheist’s moral is not based on the teachings of Jesus. And that means one should be prepared to anything.

Thats an assumption.
That sounds quite evil.

I think it is possible to make some assessments. Christian means originally a disciple of Jesus. They have the teachings of Jesus and should live accordingly. Atheists don’t have anything like that. There is no God or Jesus for atheist to tell how to live. So, we can make the assessment that atheist’s moral is not based on the teachings of Jesus. And that means one should be prepared to anything.

Nope. You have got it absolutely wrong. Absolutely.

Atheists are also people with the same ethics as anyone else. The evidence is in action. This is not a theological question, its a sociological question.

You are making an assumption, not a researched and informed statement.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
No idea what 'strictly Christian doctrine' is

That which is found in the bible.


And where did humanism come from?

The same place christianity (and all other religions / philosophies) came from: the human mind.

The 'better part of Western history' didn't happen under a Christian theocracy, and these values emerged over 1500+ years.

So the millenium that preceeded secular democracy, wasn't under christian rule in western europe?
Is that really what you are saying?

I say, it was as close the christian theocracy as it gets.
The church had a massive amount of ruling power.

And which values are you talking about?
The values of tolerance? Not really.
The values of equality? Not really.
The values of freedom of religion? Not really.
The values of freedom of sexual orientation? Not really.
The values of freedom of speech? Not really.

The separation of "church and state" (read religion and politics) emerged in a Christian context. It didn;t exist in pre-Christian Europe, and didn't exist in the majority of other belief systems either.

:rolleyes:

You mean, it emerged in a culture where the religion happened to be christianity...
Secularism is not a christian thing.

Going back many centuries to the conflicts between Emperor Henry IV and Gregory XII and Emperor Louis IV and Pope John XXII you get a division between secular and religious authority.

You used an interesting word: conflict.
Yes, indeed. My point exactly.

And scholars such as Marsilius of Padua:

The tract Defensor pacis (The Defender of Peace) laid the foundations of modern doctrines of sovereignty. It was written by Marsilius of Padua (Italian: Marsilio da Padova), an Italian medieval scholar. It appeared in 1324 and provoked a storm of controversy that lasted through the century. The context of the work lies in the political struggle between Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor and Pope John XXII. The treatise is vehemently anticlerical. Marsilius' work was censured by Pope Benedict XII and Pope Clement VI.

Defensor pacis extends the tradition of Dante's De Monarchia separating the secular State from religious authority. It affirmed the sovereignty of the people and civil law and sought to greatly limit the power of the Papacy, which he viewed as the "cause of the trouble which prevails among men" and which he characterized as a "fictitious" power. He proposed the seizure of church property by civil authority and the elimination of tithes. In his view, the Papacy would retain only an honorary pre-eminence without any authority to interpret the scriptures or define dogma.

Defensor pacis - Wikipedia

In Defensor pacis, Marsilius sought to demonstrate, by arguments from reason (in Dictio I of the text) and by argument from authority (in Dictio II) the independence of the Holy Roman Empire from the Papacy and the emptiness of the prerogatives alleged to have been usurped by the Roman pontiffs. A number of Marsilius's views were declared to be heretical by Pope John XXII in 1327.[4]

Most of Defensor pacis is devoted to theology. Relying heavily on Scripture, Marsilius seeks to show that Jesus did not claim to possess any temporal power and that he did not intend his church to exercise any.[5] On the contrary, Scripture teaches that the church should be thoroughly subordinate to the state in both secular and spiritual matters. All authority in the church lies with the whole body of the faithful, the secular ruler who acts as the people's representative, and general councils called by the secular ruler.[6] Some of Marsilius's arguments on these themes had a marked influence during the Reformation.[7]

Today, Marsilius's Defensor pacis is best remembered not for its theology but for its political philosophy and legal theory. Marsilius agrees with Aristotle that the purpose of government is the rational fulfillment of humans' natural desire for a "sufficient life".[8] However, he goes beyond Aristotle in embracing a form of republicanism that views the people as the only legitimate source of political authority. Sovereignty lies with the people, and the people should elect, correct, and, if necessary, depose its political leaders.[7] Democracy, Marsilius argues, is the best form of government because it tends to produce the wisest laws, protects the common benefit, promotes "sufficiency of life", and produces laws that are most likely to be obeyed.[9]

Marsilius of Padua - Wikipedia

This seems to be completely in line with what I'm saying...................
It's about revolt against religious authority and pro-freedom of doing things "your own way".

Humanism didn't emerge from a vacuum

I didn't claim it did.

I'm just saying it was break-away from religious rule.
It wasn't "christianity" that produced this, nore did it push for it. If anything, it was dragged along kicking and screaming - as you yourself acknowledge in the above paragraphes with your use of the word "conflict" and with the wikipedia quotes, which mention the controversy it sparked.

The point is that I simply disagree that secular humanism is some kind of "logical extension" of christianity. It isn't.


That is far too long for me to read now, but I bookmarked it for when I need to go take a good long dump :p

(that's a joke, not some snark comment to make it seem as if it is toilet grade material btw - I'm genuinely interested in what the article has to say)

Humanists tend to think that their values are 'natural' and 'universal' and that they had to emerge due to 'progress' (the Idea of Progress also has roots in Christianity, as noted even by Enlightenment atheists like Condorcet), but they are grounded in myth as all ideological systems are.

Disagree. I'ld rather say they are grounded in a worldview that doesn't include "divine moral authorities" that demand obedience.

I think the key difference between a "divine morality" and a secular humanist morality, is that in the latter you actually have give a well reasoned argument as to why you think something is moral / immoral.

In "divine morality", you don't. Then the reason is just, at bottom, "because god says so".

This is why under secular humanism, homosexuality isn't seen as immoral.
There's no well reasoned argument to lead to that conclusion.
In christian doctrine, it is immoral "because the bible says so".
 
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