Would an omnipotent God ever do what He does not want to do?

[Trailblazer]

Sure. He may not have wanted to saddle all of humanity with original sin, but something compelled him to do it anyway. Although . . . . considering that god is omniscient he would have known that the humanity he was about to create would deserve to be saddled with original sin, and because that's exactly what he wanted he went ahead with his plan and created A&E. Or has my logic gone askew here?.

I do not believe that A & E were real people, but rather they were fictional characters in a story that had an allegorical meaning. I do not believe there is any such thing as original sin, I consider it a sham, the worst sham ever perpetrated against an unsuspecting humanity. The thing is that people believed what the Church taught so it came to be widely accepted, apparently even by nonbelievers!

So no, I do not believe God saddled us with anything. I believe all humans were born good, and scientific evidence supports this since it shows that babies are born with morals. It is after we are born and start to live life that we make choices and then sin enters in, but it is a choice we make that causes us to sin, or not sin. We all have two natures, a lower material nature and a higher spiritual nature and we can choose to follow either one because we have free will. If we follow our spiritual nature we will not sin. Of course we all sin sometimes but sin will be minimized. God can and does forgive these sins. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

So, to sum up my beliefs, Jesus did not need to die on the cross to remove original sin since it never existed, but Jesus did help us not to sin because of His moral teachings. The cross sacrifice was simply a symbol of self-denial that we should seek to emulate. It did not "remove" anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe "there is nothing in logic that would prevent an omnipotent God from doing something He does not want to do"?

Please clarify, what does you mean by "there is nothing in logic that would prevent an omnipotent God from doing something He does not want to do", thank you.

Please note that I did not make the statement in the OP. An atheist said that to me and I just passed it along.

What the atheist who wrote it meant is that since God is omnipotent, God can do anything, including things He does not want to do.

I do not believe God would ever do anything God does not want to do because it makes no sense. Why would an omnipotent God do what He does not want to do?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

An omnipotent God can do anything, so that means that there is nothing in logic that would prevent an omnipotent God from doing something He does not want to do.

Would an omnipotent God ever do what He does not want to do?

The answers to choose from are yes, no, or maybe.

• If you answer yes, explain why you think God would do what He does not want to do.
• If you answer maybe, explain why you think God might do what He does not want to do.
• If you answer no, explain why you God would never do what He does not want to do.

Thanks, Trailblazer

As a Christian I couldn't help thinking of Jesus Christ saying "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will,, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) This is important as I see Jesus as Deity also. The Son is always submissive to the Father. The Son's will was take this cup from me. But He knew it would not happen. Nevertheless Thy will.

The Cross was always in the plan of the Father. (Rev. 13:8) "...in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'. This is what the Father wanted. He wanted to do it to accomplish what He wanted. He didn't want to do it just to see The Son suffer.

So to both the Father and the Son, the Cross was grievous. But it was always what the Father wanted. But the word 'want' doesn't really describe it. God never does one thing when He moves. Many things are done at the same move.

God is omnipotent irregardless. You cannot pit God's attributes against Him. He cannot cease to be God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Pudding]

Please note that I did not make the statement in the OP. An atheist said that to me and I just passed it along.

What the atheist who wrote it meant is that since God is omnipotent, God can do anything, including things He does not want to do.

I do not believe God would ever do anything God does not want to do because it makes no sense. Why would an omnipotent God do what He does not want to do?

Thanks for clarify.

If God is omnipotent, then that means God has the power/ability to do anything, even the power/ability to do things (which he wouldn't want to do). Do you agree?

The statement "God has the power/ability to do things (which he wouldn't want to do)", does not have the same meaning to the statement "God does what he doesn't want to do". Do you agree?

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for clarify.

If God is omnipotent, then that means God has the power/ability to do anything, even the power/ability to do things (which he wouldn't want to do). Do you agree?

Yes, I agree.

The statement "God has the power/ability to do things (which he wouldn't want to do)", does not have the same meaning to the statement "God does what he doesn't want to do". Do you agree?

Yes, I agree. Those mean different things.

Just because God has the power/ability to do what He does not want to do, that does not mean that God does what He does not want to do.

 

[Pudding]

Yes, I agree.

Yes, I agree. Those mean different things.

Just because God has the power/ability to do what He does not want to do, that does not mean that God does what He does not want to do.

Okay, thanks for the conversation, goodbye.

 

[InChrist]

I agree that God allows us to do what He does not desire, but how is that God doing what He does not want to do?
Are you saying that God does not want to allow that but God allows it anyway?

No, I just meant that God desires all to spend eternity with Him, but because allowing each person to make a free choice is so important He does not have His desire met completely as some refuse.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, I just meant that God desires all to spend eternity with Him, but because allowing each person to make a free choice is so important He does not have His desire met completely as some refuse.

Where in the Bible does it say that God desires that everyone spends eternity with God?

I do not believe we will ever be "with God" because I believe the Essence of God is unapproachable.
I believe we will always have to go through one of God's Manifestations in order to be near to God.
So you will approach God through Jesus and I will go through Baha'u'llah, although I hope to see Jesus too.

 

[blü 2]

However, the God of the Bible is Not omnipresent because God has a home address location - 1 Kings 8:39,49.
God's home address is the heavens of heavens - 1 Kings 8:27,30 - however No ZIP code listed.
So, No omni shtick at any price.
Since God granted us voluntary free-will choices then God does Not foresee everything.

So God is not omniscient, and [he]'s not omnipotent or [he] could make himself omniscient, and you say [he]'s not omnipresent, which affirms the previous point.

How about perfect? Can [he] make perfect guesses about what everyone's going to do, or is [he] constantly being blindsided?

Please notice God does Not give us the number of people at Revelation 7:9 who come through the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
This is an unknown number because we are all free to act responsibly toward God and repent if we wish.

So [he]'s not omniscient, so the number isn't there because [he] has no idea how many?

By the way, how does this theological freewill work? I think the modern explanation of how our brains make decisions involve the interacting of complex chains of cause+effect, along evolved pathways and possibly but not certainly occasionally affected by incidents of quantum randomness. If God has a handle on what seems to us to be quantum randomness then everything we think, say and do ought to be predictable to [him]. Does that still apply when you have theological freewill? If not, what changes?

 

[PruePhillip]

I like that you brought out to us that God can Not make mistakes because God is infallible.
Yes, infallible and omnipotent are different. (God is Not omnipotent) .
...and yes, Not accepted by atheists because they (Like so many others) ignore God, or that God does Not exist.
Many say they are Not Godless, but they just have less God in their lives, or don't want the Eye of God in their life.
Since work or school does Not have much if anything about God, then God is also less real, or Not real to them.
Or, as one person said, ' God leaves me alone and I leave Him alone. '
Since they have stopped listening to God and His word (His written record) their spiritual life has died off.
Unlike with Scripture, some just use the ever-changing-with-the-times self-help books.
Some of course just go through the motions to keep up appearances (or what they consider to be the fun parts ).
In Scripture, the infallible God wants Earth to become a beautiful paradisical Earth as Eden started out.

God does not want to create an Eden again.
It says that God will destroy the earth - it
says the heavens and earth fled from the
face of God and were not found again.

 

[viole]

An omnipotent God can do anything, so that means that there is nothing in logic that would prevent an omnipotent God from doing something He does not want to do.

Would an omnipotent God ever do what He does not want to do?

The answers to choose from are yes, no, or maybe.

• If you answer yes, explain why you think God would do what He does not want to do.
• If you answer maybe, explain why you think God might do what He does not want to do.
• If you answer no, explain why you God would never do what He does not want to do.

Thanks, Trailblazer

if He answers to prayer, since most prayers involve “let Your will be done”, in a way or the other, then the answer is obviously not. Actually, that is the main excuse when He does not answer....that it wan not His will.

Has anybody tested by praying “let Your un-will be done”?

ciao
- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

if He answers to prayer, since most prayers involve “let Your will be done”, in a way or the other, then the answer is obviously not. Actually, that is the main excuse when He does not answer....that it was not His will.

Why would God need an excuse? An omnipotent God is not answerable to humans.

Also, since God is Infallible, All-Knowing and All-Wise, God cannot need excuses, because He cannot make mistakes.
So if we believe in God and we are mature, we just try to accept what His Will is for us.
I am not saying this is easy or that I can do it all the time, but I consider it the rational thing to do.

Has anybody tested by praying “let Your un-will be done”?

That would not work because God only does what is according to His Will and we cannot make Him do otherwise.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why don't you think God is omnipotent?
God will leave them alone if they leave Him alone.
Those books are not going to help anyone. Only God can help them, Imo.
I do not believe this world will ever be a paradise like Eden but I believe it will be a lot better than it is now in the future. I believe that paradise will be found in heaven, for those who loved God.

Like you most professing believers connect paradise as being heaven.
However, Jesus did Not instruct us to pray for heaven to come, but for God's kingdom to come......
Not to be 'taken up' to God's kingdom, nor 'taken away' to God's kingdom....
Before Jesus, the way to a heavenly resurrection was Not offered to anyone. - John 3:13
Jesus only offered heaven to some people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 2:10; 20:6; Daniel 7:18

Since only righteousness will dwell on Earth under Christ's 1,000-year reign over Earth then yes it will Not only be a whole lot better, but as Jesus promised the thief dying with him that the thief would be in paradise.
Since the thief died 'before' Jesus died then that thief will have an earthly resurrection on a beautiful paradisical Earth.

Look at the ever-changing self-help books, they change because they can't get it right.
Whereas, the Bible does Not change and its God-given help remains righteous and right forever.
Applied Bible principles and standards always remain the same with the same successful outcome.

Yes, at this time God does leave us alone, so to speak, but that does Not mean He will never involve Himself in mankind's affairs.
This is why the coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth is coming as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
For the sake of the righteous, the upright, God will have Jesus step in and take the action as described at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jacob (ca 2000 BC) said there will be a Hebrew nation and it will have a monarchy
through his son Judah. But this will all end with the coming of the Messiah.
David and Isaiah give quite poignant accounts of the suffering and dying of the Messiah.
Daniel says that Rome will destroy the temple, Jerusalem and the Messiah.

Yes, and that fleshy national nation came to an end at Pentecost for Christians.
Messiah was put to death but 'Not destroyed' because the God of Jesus resurrected Jesus - Acts 2:24,27
The Roman armies did destroy un-faithful Jerusalem with its temple in the year 70. Even as Jesus foretold at Luke 19:43-44.
Also, what will Not be destroyed is: God's Kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
Jesus, as Messsiah, will be King of God's Kingdom for 1,000 years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why would God need an excuse? An omnipotent God is not answerable to humans. Also, since God is Infallible, All-Knowing and All-Wise...................

I do wonder to which God you are referring_______
To me the God of the Bible is Not omnipotent (can do anything), because the God of the Bible can Not lie - Titus 1:2
The Bible's God is 'from everlasting to everlasting' (Psalms 90:2) so God can't kill Himself.
Sure, the Bible's God is infallible and I would also say All-Wise, but God is Not all-knowing (by choice).
Please notice God does Not know the number of survivors of Revelation 7:9,14.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sure. He may not have wanted to saddle all of humanity with original sin, but something compelled him to do it anyway. Although . . . . considering that god is omniscient he would have known that the humanity he was about to create would deserve to be saddled with original sin, and because that's exactly what he wanted he went ahead with his plan and created A&E. Or has my logic gone askew here?

I find there is Nothing in Scripture to lead one to conclude God saddled humanity with original sin.
Rather, it was free-willed Adam and Eve ( along with Satan ) who saddled us by choosing to break God's Law.
At first, Adam and Eve's thoughts were upright, but later they choose otherwise.
Satan tricked Eve into thinking she could be like God, to be her own goddess to choose what was right or wrong.
So, God can know our changing thoughts, but those thoughts are brought about Not by God but one's own desires as James 1:13-15 lets us know.

 

[Trailblazer]

I do wonder to which God you are referring_______
To me the God of the Bible is Not omnipotent (can do anything), because the God of the Bible can Not lie - Titus 1:2
The Bible's God is 'from everlasting to everlasting' (Psalms 90:2) so God can't kill Himself.
Sure, the Bible's God is infallible and I would also say All-Wise, but God is Not all-knowing (by choice).
Please notice God does Not know the number of survivors of Revelation 7:9,14.

You are interpreting the Bible in your own way, literally. I think God cannot lie means God will not lie, so that does not preclude omnipotence. Omnipotence simply means All-Powerful and can do anything but that does not mean God will do everything God can do. God cannot kill Himself because God cannot die since God is Spirit.

Jesus was not All-Knowing and that is why He said:

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

But God is All-Knowing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So God is not omniscient, and [he]'s not omnipotent or [he] could make himself omniscient, and you say [he]'s not omnipresent, which affirms the previous point.
How about perfect? Can [he] make perfect guesses about what everyone's going to do, or is [he] constantly being blindsided?
So [he]'s not omniscient, so the number isn't there because [he] has no idea how many?
By the way, how does this theological freewill work? I think the modern explanation of how our brains make decisions involve the interacting of complex chains of cause+effect, along evolved pathways and possibly but not certainly occasionally affected by incidents of quantum randomness. If God has a handle on what seems to us to be quantum randomness then everything we think, say and do ought to be predictable to [him]. Does that still apply when you have theological freewill? If not, what changes?

What changes is what changed for Satan and Adam and Eve and includes us too since them.
As James 1:13-15 lets us know each person is drawn out or enticed by one's own desires.
Lingering wrong or bad desires can lead to the doing of wrong.
God does Not have to make perfect or otherwise guesses.
Please notice there is No guesswork about the 'un-number people' mentioned at Revelation 7:9,14.
It is an un-known number as to who will be the figurative sheep or goats at the time of Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You are interpreting the Bible in your own way, literally. I think God cannot lie means God will not lie, so that does not preclude omnipotence. Omnipotence simply means All-Powerful and can do anything but that does not mean God will do everything God can do. God cannot kill Himself because God cannot die since God is Spirit.
Jesus was not All-Knowing and that is why He said:
Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
But God is All-Knowing.

To my knowledge Satan and his demons are also heavenly spirits and they will be destroyed - Hebrews 2:14 B
Sinner Satan and his spirit demons end up in ' second death ' as per Revelation 21:8

Sure God is all-knowing about Armageddon's date, and we know the season is now ripe - Matthew 24:32-33.
God lets us know we are in the last days of badness on Earth as described at 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13
But, as to who will survive ( saved/ delivered/ rescued ) is an Un-known number as per Revelation7:9,14

 

[Trailblazer]

Like you most professing believers connect paradise as being heaven.

Yes, because no matter how much this world changes it will still be physical and a physical world can never be paradise.

However, Jesus did Not instruct us to pray for heaven to come, but for God's kingdom to come......
Not to be 'taken up' to God's kingdom, nor 'taken away' to God's kingdom....

I fully agree. Jesus prayed that the Kingdom of God would be built on earth and I believe it is the job of humans to build that Kingdom.

Before Jesus, the way to a heavenly resurrection was Not offered to anyone. - John 3:13
Jesus only offered heaven to some people like those of Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 2:10; 20:6; Daniel 7:18

I have been discussing this with a Christian on my forum and he says nobody ever went to heaven before Jesus because of John 3:13. I disagreed and I said:

As it says in the article below “The emphasis was on Jesus having the authority to teach on eternal life because He alone had come down from heaven to earth.”

What does John 3:13 mean? Did no one go to heaven before Jesus?

In John 3:13 Jesus said, "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." Some have understood these words to mean no one went to heaven before Jesus. Is this true?

A look at the larger discussion of Jesus in this chapter demonstrates this is not true. Jesus was speaking with Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher who had come to Him at night with questions about the kingdom of God. The emphasis was on Jesus having the authority to teach on eternal life because He alone had come down from heaven to earth. The NLT translates the verse, "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven."

Verse 17 further illustrates this point. Jesus stated, "For God did not sent his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Again, the emphasis is on Jesus coming to earth from heaven.

Other passages also illustrate the fact that some people went to heaven (or paradise) before Jesus came to earth. For example, in His response to the religious leaders in Mark 12:26-27, Jesus answered, "And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

In addition, two men in the Bible were taken up to heaven without dying. Genesis 5:24 marks the event of Enoch entering directly into heaven (also Hebrews 11:5). Second Kings 2:11 records Elijah being taken to heaven by a whirlwind with chariots of fire separating him from Elisha. In Luke 16:19-30, Jesus shares an account of Lazarus in heaven at Abraham's side. This would indicate Abraham being in heaven before Jesus came to earth.

Hebrews 11 furthers includes a lengthy list of Old Testament saints who followed the Lord by faith. Though not explicitly stated, these individuals were noted as God's people who lived for Him and dwell with Him beyond earthly life.

Further, to make the claim no one went to heaven before Jesus provides many inconsistencies with other biblical passages that speak of God's people in eternity with Him. It is much more consistent with the context of John 3 as well as the rest of Scripture to understand Jesus referring to Himself as the one who came from heaven, giving Him authority to speak to Nicodemus regarding eternal life.
What does John 3:13 mean? Did no one go to heaven before Jesus?

Since only righteousness will dwell on Earth under Christ's 1,000-year reign over Earth then yes it will Not only be a whole lot better,

The problem with that is that Jesus said that His work was finished here and he was no more in the world and that His Kingdom is not of this world:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus said that He had finished the work that God gave Him to do and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. This indicates that Jesus never planned to return (I am no more in the world) and there was no need to return since He finished the work God gave Him to do.

Then in the next chapter you have these verses:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to (1) glorify God (glorified thee on the earth) and (2) that I should bear witness unto the truth. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

but as Jesus promised the thief dying with him that the thief would be in paradise.
Since the thief died 'before' Jesus died then that thief will have an earthly resurrection on a beautiful paradisical Earth.

I believe that Jesus was referring to heaven, where Jesus is now.
Hypothetically speaking, how do you think that everyone who ever lived and believed in Jesus could live on earth forever? How could earth sustain such a population, and how could anyone new be born?

Look at the ever-changing self-help books, they change because they can't get it right.
Whereas, the Bible does Not change and its God-given help remains righteous and right forever.
Applied Bible principles and standards always remain the same with the same successful outcome.

Whereas I believe that is true about the Bible, it is also important to understand what the Bible means because otherwise we can be terribly misled.

Yes, at this time God does leave us alone, so to speak, but that does Not mean He will never involve Himself in mankind's affairs.

I agree, because I believe that God sends Messengers in every age to assist mankind and teach us how to live a righteous life.

This is why the coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth is coming as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
For the sake of the righteous, the upright, God will have Jesus step in and take the action as described at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16

I cannot see how it is possible for Jesus to return because Jesus said His work was finished here, He was no more in the world, and His Kingdom is not of this world, as noted in the verses above.