"Christian Moms Group Condemns Hallmark Channel for Airing Lesbian Wedding Ad"

[SkepticThinker]

Can you come up with a better example of an inappropriate sexual attraction than an attraction to children?

Necrophilia?

I don't know, it's your argument, not mine.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Anal fixation?

BDSM?

Messing around with horses and goats?

Necrophilia?

But the thing is, the reason they're compared together is because we've all heard the celibate priest suddenly deciding he likes little boys. There's a sense that gay people are often also pedophiles.

BUT THEY AREN'T.

Thank you for so beautifully illustrating our point.

 

[SomeRandom]

How dare gay people have location weddings! Hetero people would never go to a place they liked specifically to get married!

Lol a few of my cousins had to travel internationally for their weddings, just to include the fam.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

You did. In this post:

"Christian Moms Group Condemns Hallmark Channel for Airing Lesbian Wedding Ad"

You also made the error of calling homosexuality a "weakness" .

Quote me. Quote me comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.

I never claimed that homosexuality was a weakness.

It is same-sex attraction that is the weakness.

Homosexuality is sin, not weakness.

A weakness is something that leads a person to commit a sin.

I believe that equating same-sex attraction to homosexuality is the error.

Again - learn to read.

 

[metis]

It is same-sex attraction that is the weakness.

Not according to geneticists that recognize that such attractions tend to be genetic in nature with certain people. If one believes that God directly made us all. then one has to apparently blame God for this. I don't though.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Quote me. Quote me comparing homosexuality to pedophilia.

I never claimed that homosexuality was a weakness.

It is same-sex attraction that is the weakness.

Homosexuality is sin, not weakness.

A weakness is something that leads a person to commit a sin.

I believe that equating same-sex attraction to homosexuality is the error.

Again - learn to read.

The whole post in context compares the two. That should not be that hard to understand. Others saw it too. The fact that you did not do so directly does not mean that you did not compare the two.

And no, homosexuality is neither a sin nor a weakness. It is simply a natural variation that we see in the sexuality of all sorts of organisms. But I always find it a bit amusing when Christians cimply that their own God is evil.

 

[metis]

And no, homosexuality is neither a sin nor a weakness. It is simply a natural variation that we see in the sexuality of all sorts of organisms.

Great point, and I wonder how many parents have been embarrassed while viewing such behavior with their kids at the zoo?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Great point, and I wonder how many parents have been embarrassed while viewing such behavior with their kids at the zoo?

They can't handle straight sex usually. That would really put a knot in their stomachs. One suggestion. From what I have heard it is wise to totally avoid the giraffes if one has a problem with homophobia:

A giraffe same-sex relationship? - Africa Geographic

And not just with one giraffe:

Spoiler

Don't look

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Whether you want to face it or not, you're simply trying to impose your beliefs and will on, and maintain control over others. It's your way or the highway. Deny, protest, shriek and spin like a whirling dervish about it, but that's the truth.

What the hell are you talking about?

How does my answering your questions about my beliefs mean that I am trying to "control" or "force" anyone to do anything?

I mean, this is a religious forum website, not a bill of legislation I am presenting to Congress. I am sharing my beliefs, not testifying in a court of law.

As I said to you in post #354, "You are free to believe, do or be whatever you want."

All I care about is sharing my beliefs and people understanding my position correctly.

I understand that you asked me to "Change your mind", but we both knew that wasn't going to happen.

No matter what I said, you would never come to agree with me. Just as I will never agree with you.

If you claim that my unwillingness to bend is me trying to "control" or "force" then I could say the same thing about since you are unbending, am I right?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can believe, do or be whatever you want.

Stop projecting your false perceptions upon me.

Why should I believe it's immoral? What parts?

I don't care if you believe me. All I care about is sharing my beliefs and being understood correctly.

I believe that living according to God's commandments will help you avoid future disappointment, but you don't have to do anything.

Having the attraction? Nothing I can do about that, nor would I if I could.

It is a core belief of Christianity that the Lord Jesus Christ came down to the world, suffered and died for us, to give us the ability to change our nature.

I have to reject your claim that a same-sex attraction cannot be changed based on that core belief that I have. I just have to.

I like myself, I like men.

That's great, but it is not proof that you are not harming yourself.

For example, I like myself as well and I also like hamburgers. Even though I fight the truth, my love of hamburgers has and will continue to do me harm.

My love for something that harms me does not make me a monster. It makes me human.

You don't have to believe that homosexuality is harmful. I don't care. I just wanted you to know that I believe God has claimed that it is harmful.

My desire for you to know that is not a desire for control, but to share my beliefs and have them be understood correctly.

If Jesus didn't want me to be gay, why didn't he do something about that?

What would you have Him do?

Consider that He has promised that we are free to make our own choices and that He doesn't want any of us committing any sin at any time.

What would you have Him do?

He decided to suffer and die for you, which gave you the ability to overcome your sinful nature if you so desired.

He has done every possible thing He can do for you besides stripping you of your free will, which He will never do.

I mean, c'mon, do you honestly want a God to come into your life and force you to make certain choices?

I'd rather deal with a guy like me sharing his beliefs than have a God like that.

Then why is anyone gay?

I said in post #354,

"I believe that you are now engaging in homosexual behavior because you indulged your sexual weakness from an early age and then became consumed by it."

This would be true of everyone and anyone because everyone and anyone has committed sin.

We, all of us, have succumbed to our weaknesses and committed sin. We all have different weaknesses, which is why we all commit different sins.

Something that might tempt the crap out of me may not phase you in the slightest. And vice versa. Because you and I have different weaknesses.

Hint: he has no authority over me.

It is my belief that He does. He has already redeemed you. You just don't know it yet.

You are free while in mortality, but once you leave this world I believe you will realize that you were never outside of His sphere of influence and authority and that He has sustained you in every single moment of your life.

When the One I believe to be God doesn't have a problem with it, why should some deity (if he even is a deity, and not just a sage) have a problem with it?

I don't think I could believe in a God that just told me what I wanted to hear.

I mean, I'm not perfect yet, so why wouldn't he have any notes for me?

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is perfect and He wants us to be perfect, so He will continue to teach us what we need to do to become perfect as well.

Do we mean having sex with other men? What is immoral about that when no one is hurt, and it's between two consenting adults?

If homosexual behavior in and of itself is harmful, then consent would not matter. Those two adults would be hurting themselves and each other.

All things being equal and I'm happy in a relationship with another man, why should I try (because we know it's a lie that one can "change") to change that?

Your premise stabs at the core of Christian belief, which is why I reject it. We can change. We must change if we want to fulfill our eternal potential.

I want to be happy that you are happy, but I cannot because I know that your happiness cannot last.

Once you pass out of this world, you will be separated from your partner, never to be reunited, because a same-sex relationship cannot be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

 

[Subduction Zone]

What the hell are you talking about?

How does my answering your questions about my beliefs mean that I am trying to "control" or "force" anyone to do anything?

I mean, this is a religious forum website, not a bill of legislation I am presenting to Congress. I am sharing my beliefs, not testifying in a court of law.

As I said to you in post #354, "You are free to believe, do or be whatever you want."

All I care about is sharing my beliefs and people understanding my position correctly.

I understand that you asked me to "Change your mind", but we both knew that wasn't going to happen.

No matter what I said, you would never come to agree with me. Just as I will never agree with you.

If you claim that my unwillingness to bend is me trying to "control" or "force" then I could say the same thing about since you are unbending, am I right?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You can believe, do or be whatever you want.

Stop projecting your false perceptions upon me.

I don't care if you believe me. All I care about is sharing my beliefs and being understood correctly.

I believe that living according to God's commandments will help you avoid future disappointment, but you don't have to do anything.

It is a core belief of Christianity that the Lord Jesus Christ came down to the world, suffered and died for us, to give us the ability to change our nature.

I have to reject your claim that a same-sex attraction cannot be changed based on that core belief that I have. I just have to.

That's great, but it is not proof that you are not harming yourself.

For example, I like myself as well and I also like hamburgers. Even though I fight the truth, my love of hamburgers has and will continue to do me harm.

My love for something that harms me does not make me a monster. It makes me human.

You don't have to believe that homosexuality is harmful. I don't care. I just wanted you to know that I believe God has claimed that it is harmful.

My desire for you to know that is not a desire for control, but to share my beliefs and have them be understood correctly.

What would you have Him do?

Consider that He has promised that we are free to make our own choices and that He doesn't want any of us committing any sin at any time.

What would you have Him do?

He decided to suffer and die for you, which gave you the ability to overcome your sinful nature if you so desired.

He has done every possible thing He can do for you besides stripping you of your free will, which He will never do.

I mean, c'mon, do you honestly want a God to come into your life and force you to make certain choices?

I'd rather deal with a guy like me sharing his beliefs than have a God like that.

I said in post #354,

"I believe that you are now engaging in homosexual behavior because you indulged your sexual weakness from an early age and then became consumed by it."

This would be true of everyone and anyone because everyone and anyone has committed sin.

We, all of us, have succumbed to our weaknesses and committed sin. We all have different weaknesses, which is why we all commit different sins.

Something that might tempt the crap out of me may not phase you in the slightest. And vice versa. Because you and I have different weaknesses.

It is my belief that He does. He has already redeemed you. You just don't know it yet.

You are free while in mortality, but once you leave this world I believe you will realize that you were never outside of His sphere of influence and authority and that He has sustained you in every single moment of your life.

I don't think I could believe in a God that just told me what I wanted to hear.

I mean, I'm not perfect yet, so why wouldn't he have any notes for me?

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is perfect and He wants us to be perfect, so He will continue to teach us what we need to do to become perfect as well.

If homosexual behavior in and of itself is harmful, then consent would not matter. Those two adults would be hurting themselves and each other.

Your premise stabs at the core of Christian belief, which is why I reject it. We can change. We must change if we want to fulfill our eternal potential.

I want to be happy that you are happy, but I cannot because I know that your happiness cannot last.

Once you pass out of this world, you will be separated from your partner, never to be reunited, because a same-sex relationship cannot be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

TLDR, at least not all of it. What some Christians do not seem to realize that it is fine to apply those beliefs to yourself. That is perfectly moral. It is when one tries to apply there beliefs to others that they cross the line. Believe what you want and try to convince others to believe as you do if that is what you wish. But if you try to claim that others have a "weakness" or "sin" because they do not follow your rules is what will end up causing people to jump all over you.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

The whole post in context compares the two. That should not be that hard to understand. Others saw it too. The fact that you did not do so directly does not mean that you did not compare the two.

And the possibility that you are all wrong never crossed your mind.

And no, homosexuality is neither a sin nor a weakness. It is simply a natural variation that we see in the sexuality of all sorts of organisms. But I always find it a bit amusing when Christians cimply that their own God is evil.

Nature is not the standard for morality. Human beings are not animals.

Cannibalism is also a "natural variation". Are you about to argue to we should take up the practice as well?

God has claimed over and over again that our purpose in this life is to overcome the "natural man".

So, no, nature should not be held up as a standard and it has no bearing on God's perfection.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

TLDR, at least not all of it. What some Christians do not seem to realize that it is fine to apply those beliefs to yourself. That is perfectly moral. It is when one tries to apply there beliefs to others that they cross the line. Believe what you want and try to convince others to believe as you do if that is what you wish. But if you try to claim that others have a "weakness" or "sin" because they do not follow your rules is what will end up causing people to jump all over you.

"TLDR" is another of your lame excuses.

How am I "applying" my beliefs to others? Please explain how my sharing my beliefs is doing that.

Also explain how my claim that all of humanity suffers from "weakness" and "sin" singles out those who do not "follow my rules"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And the possibility that you are all wrong never crossed your mind.

Nature is not the standard for morality. Human beings are not animals.

Cannibalism is also a "natural variation". Are you about to argue to we should take up the practice as well?

God has claimed over and over again that our purpose in this life is to overcome the "natural man".

So, no, nature should not be help up as a standard and it has no bearing on God's perfection.

No, that possibility did exist, which is why I reread the post. It was still there.

And like it or no human beings are animals. You are an animal. I am an animal. We are all animals. You will probably really have a fit over the fact that you are an ape. Yet strangely enough most Christians do not have a problem with being mammals. That is so weird.

And cannibalism is rather rare in the animal world. It is usually a desperate survival technique. But it is nice to see you admit defeat by going for the extremes. This is called "grasping at straws".

And God never "claimed" anything. You are conflating the Bible with God. A violation of the Second Commandment if I recall my numbers correctly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

"TLDR" is another of your lame excuses.

How am I "applying" my beliefs to others? Please explain how my sharing my beliefs is doing that.

Also explain how my claim that all of humanity suffers from "weakness" and "sin" singles out those who do not "follow my rules"?

No, when someone writes a wall of text, much of it nonsense, people will skip over much of it.

You are trying to claim that homosexual behavior is a sin. It may be a sin for you. It would not be a sin for others. That is you trying to apply your rules to others.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Not according to geneticists that recognize that such attractions tend to be genetic in nature with certain people. If one believes that God directly made us all. then one has to apparently blame God for this. I don't though.

I believe that God is definitely to blame for this, if it were true.

God claimed that He has given to Men their weaknesses so that they would be humble and come to Him. He then promised that He would make our weaknesses into strengths.

Anyone who has a same-sex attraction received that weakness from God. He gave it to them with the hope that they would realize that they are weak and would need Him to overcome it.

Our inherited weaknesses are supposed to to help us fight against our pride. Yet, people are now twisting that around and becoming proud of their weakness.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Here’s the thing, many of us have been around forums like this for many years. In my experience, people have brought up pedophilia and homosexuality in the same breath when they are attempting to demonize and marginalize gay people by lumping them in with a group of people who harm children. It’s bogus, and I’m tired of seeing it, at this point.



You’d have to demonstrate that same-sex attraction is inappropriate though, rather than just stating it.

Pedophilia is inappropriate for a number of reasons, the main ones being that it is psychologically and physically damaging to children. There are also consent issues, among other things.



I actually did read your post, as did some others who walked away with the same impression that I did. Though I can appreciate that you’re trying to clarify your position where you think it’s been misunderstood.



I should be grateful that some god can’t be bothered to clearly and unambiguously convey to every individual on Earth what his/her desires are for us?

Why?



Why?



I don’t’ have the witness of the holy spirit and nothing has been revealed to me about the “truth of all things.” And apparently, your god isn’t so great at conveying the “truth of all things to us” given that there are thousands of different sects of Christianity and thousands of other religions that people believe in.
Though I’m not sure what this has to do with the particular comment you are responding to ..

Things like this, that serve to perpetuate negative views and beliefs about gay people …

“It is another example of a sexual weakness.”

“ Just because homosexual behavior has been accepted in society today does not mean that it is morally acceptable.”

“You engage in homosexual behavior because you chose to entertain inappropriate thoughts which led you to engage in inappropriate behavior.”

“Since there is no fact that proves that anyone is born a homosexual - the claim is based on assumptions.”

“The idea that homosexuals are born is an assumption based on nothing.”

“I treat homosexuals the same way I would treat anyone I disagree with. I explain why I disagree with them plainly and confidently.”



Okay.



It would depend on how you refer to them and speak about them.


We carry on a discussion, as we are currently doing.



Like, out in the world when you encounter gay people you do this? Or do you just mean in online forums? Because if you’re doing that out in the world, I don’t blame anyone if they think such an approach is rude and want you to leave them alone. Why would anyone want to listen to that?

Do you do the same when you encounter people who have sex outside of marriage?



Your general views toward them, which you have shared on this thread. I’m just going with your own words.

I have no reason to believe you lock them in cages in your free time. Do you?



Yep, and all I am going on are your words that you have conveyed to us.

I don’t recall referring to you as a monster. Though I don’t find your beliefs particularly appealing or accurate in nature and I think they are harmful to the human psyche.



Which is?

I want to address your comments, but you keep voting "Like" and "Winner" for comments that make the false claim that I had compared pedophilia to homosexuality. (Not to mention the one comment where someone claimed that my sharing my opinion did as much damage as raping a child)

So, I don't think I'm going to waste my time and effort because you are unwilling to be honest in any discussion with me on this topic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that God is definitely to blame for this, if it were true.

God claimed that He has given to Men their weaknesses so that they would be humble and come to Him. He then promised that He would make our weaknesses into strengths.

Anyone who has a same-sex attraction received that weakness from God. He gave it to them with the hope that they would realize that they are weak and would need Him to overcome it.

Our inherited weaknesses are supposed to to help us fight against our pride. Yet, people are now twisting that around and becoming proud of their weakness.

Do you understand the concept of a "self fulfilling prophecy"? It is a form of extreme confirmation bias. A false test is set up where if they pass it they confirm your beliefs and if they fail it it confirms your beliefs. It is of no value. A rational way to test one's religion is with a test that it could conceivably fail. All religions can devise bogus tests that their religion passes. What is impressive is when an idea could conceivably fail but it does not.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

No, when someone writes a wall of text, much of it nonsense, people will skip over much of it.

Proving that you are lazy, incompetent and not actually interested in having a discussion.

Your objective is to shut discussion down.

You are trying to claim that homosexual behavior is a sin. It may be a sin for you. It would not be a sin for others. That is you trying to apply your rules to others.

You keep saying this and it is stupid.

Someone sharing their beliefs is not trying to force anything on anyone.

If I were to tell you that I believe that chocolate was the best flavor of ice cream, you would argue that I was trying to apply my belief on you?

You are being ridiculous and I have zero respect for you. You are a waste of time and effort.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I want to address your comments, but you keep voting "Like" and "Winner" for comments that make the false claim that I had compared pedophilia to homosexuality. (Not to mention the one comment where someone claimed that my sharing my opinion did as much damage as raping a child)

So, I don't think I'm going to waste my time and effort because you are unwilling to be honest in any discussion with me on this topic.

Remember that I claimed that others could see that you had done what you deny?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why do you believe that homosexuality is morally acceptable?

We can find no reason to find objection to it. Nothing other than an ancient book--the Bible--that says "icky, kill them." A book that some dogmatically follow to the point of abandoning reason and logic, empathy and decency. A book, that though called "holy," has justified many of the worst atrocities and repressions in history. Becauase it's blindly following what "god said."