What happens when we put our own thoughts in to a spiritual text?

[Spirit of Light]

I hope my lack of correct English writing does not clutter the meaning of my post here, if it is difficult to understand the meaning of my OP, please ask me to explain more.

I been wondering for some time.
When we study or follow a spiritual teaching, and we begin to put our own interpretation of the actual words that are in the text. means we say or think, the teacher(s) must have been thinking this. and we ad our own words into the texts of for example the Bible, Buddhist scripture, Quran, and so on, or even worse, we change the wording of the teaching to fit our own life. Instead of trying to understand what the teaching actual text that is the teaching.

Does it harm the future of spiritual teaching for a future generation when we as human beings change the scripture from its original meaning to what we as unenlightened beings "think" it should mean?

When in discussion with others it is in my understanding good if we say or write, "in my understanding, it could mean this..." instead of saying it does mean this and maybe we did not understand the teaching fully our self. then we destroy spiritual teaching, are we not?

I don't have the full answer my self, but I worry if we keep changing the original texts of spiritual teaching it will become teaching that can not save us.

 

[Sirona]

It's been more than 20 years that I left school but I think the process of interpretation is a very natural and necessary process in order to understand its meaning. There are very few commandments where only the literal meaning is important. And even for that literal meaning, those who discover that they don't like or find it too difficult to practice it may cleam that it is only meant symbolically or metaphorically.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It's been more than 20 years that I left school but I think the process of interpretation is a very natural and necessary process in order to understand its meaning. There are very few commandments where only the literal meaning is important. And even for that literal meaning, those who discover that they don't like or find it too difficult to practice it may cleam that it is only meant symbolically or metaphorically.

My understanding of the topic.
I understand your answer, but we should remember that books in school and spiritual teachings are very different, School books do not contain the energy of the spiritual master/teacher who first taught them, but spiritual teachings does contain the higher energy of a spiritual master, This is a reason why human beings can realize enlightenment through spiritual cultivation, but not true mundane school books that are only meant for this dimension/ human realm.

 

[dybmh]

These are difficult questions to answer, Amanaki. But I will do my best.

Does it harm the future of spiritual teaching for a future generation when we as human beings change the scripture from its original meaning to what we as unenlightened beings "think" it should mean?

From the Abrahamic perspective: Human beings were created intentionally by G-d with a human brain. G-d's will for Human Beings is to use **all** their faculties ( including our brains ) in service of G-d and creation. And that includes using our brain power to attempt to understand what a scripture means. Yes... I am saying G-d intends for us humans to "think about it." And I think you will recognize these words, "Think about it", because Master Li repeats this phrase in his lectures teaching Falun Gong.

So yes. we as unenlightened beings are mandated to "think" about what scripture should mean And Yes, Master Li supports this approach.

My opinion is that maybe there is confusion / conflict in your mind between this, Master Li's advice to "Think about it", and the prohibition on Falun Dafa cultivators from speaking about Falun Gong except by quoting the Master directly. I don't see these as conflicting at all, personally. Thinking about it is internal, speaking about it is external. I don't see any conflict.

When in discussion with others it is in my understanding good if we say or write, "in my understanding, it could mean this..." instead of saying it does mean this and maybe we did not understand the teaching fully our self. then we destroy spiritual teaching, are we not?

It's an interesting perspective. I don't think that there is a way to avoid this risk all together if a person accepts the responsibility of spreading the Teaching. There will always be an inherent risk of the Teaching being misunderstood and then adjusted/polluted whenever anyone hears the words or reads them.

This is why, if the Teaching is precious and fragile, it should not be disseminated. It should be guarded and only spoken about in and among friends and devotees of the Master.

On the other hand, if the Teaching is robust, then the risks of the Teaching being polluted and adjusted become less pronounced.

So there is a judgement that needs to be made by an individual who chooses to accept the onus of spreading any teaching. Is the Teaching fragile or resilient? Is the individual who is spreading the Teaching capable and knowledgeable enough accept the risks and mitigate them? That means that there is probably not a single rule that is true for all religions, scriptures, and spiritual teachings. An evaluation on a case-by-case basis is probably best, i think.

I don't have the full answer my self, but I worry if we keep changing the original texts of spiritual teaching it will become teaching that can not save us.

If you worry, I think you should listen to that. It probably means that you're not ready to accept the responsibility of spreading the Teaching, When you are no longer worrying, then you will know that you are ready.

Best wishes my friend,

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I hope my lack of correct English writing does not clutter the meaning of my post here, if it is difficult to understand the meaning of my OP, please ask me to explain more.

I been wondering for some time.
When we study or follow a spiritual teaching, and we begin to put our own interpretation of the actual words that are in the text. means we say or think, the teacher(s) must have been thinking this. and we ad our own words into the texts of for example the Bible, Buddhist scripture, Quran, and so on, or even worse, we change the wording of the teaching to fit our own life. Instead of trying to understand what the teaching actual text that is the teaching.

Does it harm the future of spiritual teaching for a future generation when we as human beings change the scripture from its original meaning to what we as unenlightened beings "think" it should mean?

When in discussion with others it is in my understanding good if we say or write, "in my understanding, it could mean this..." instead of saying it does mean this and maybe we did not understand the teaching fully our self. then we destroy spiritual teaching, are we not?

I don't have the full answer my self, but I worry if we keep changing the original texts of spiritual teaching it will become teaching that can not save us.

In the suttas, for example, The Buddha mentions as long as we keep to his point, we can use any analogies and interpretations we need to to adjust to the other we speak with.

Spirituality doesn't have time period. BC, AD, CD are all the same. If the Bible was written today, would people even acknowledge it as scripture?.

Spirituality should have interpretation. Keeping to originality is like continuing to mail correspondence to your boss because you want to continue the traditional communication method instead of sending the same message through email.

It's a Christians thing (not sure of Islam and Judaism) to want to keep to original teachings as if originality is what should define the authenticity of our faith. Thankfully not all religions are like that.

I'd assume it's very unrealistic to think it should.

 

[Spirit of Light]

These are difficult questions to answer, Amanaki. But I will do my best.


From the Abrahamic perspective: Human beings were created intentionally by G-d with a human brain. G-d's will for Human Beings is to use **all** their faculties ( including our brains ) in service of G-d and creation. And that includes using our brain power to attempt to understand what a scripture means. Yes... I am saying G-d intends for us humans to "think about it." And I think you will recognize these words, "Think about it", because Master Li repeats this phrase in his lectures teaching Falun Gong.

So yes. we as unenlightened beings are mandated to "think" about what scripture should mean And Yes, Master Li supports this approach.

My opinion is that maybe there is confusion / conflict in your mind between this, Master Li's advice to "Think about it", and the prohibition on Falun Dafa cultivators from speaking about Falun Gong except by quoting the Master directly. I don't see these as conflicting at all, personally. Thinking about it is internal, speaking about it is external. I don't see any conflict.



It's an interesting perspective. I don't think that there is a way to avoid this risk all together if a person accepts the responsibility of spreading the Teaching. There will always be an inherent risk of the Teaching being misunderstood and then adjusted/polluted whenever anyone hears the words or reads them.

This is why, if the Teaching is precious and fragile, it should not be disseminated. It should be guarded and only spoken about in and among friends and devotees of the Master.

On the other hand, if the Teaching is robust, then the risks of the Teaching being polluted and adjusted become less pronounced.

So there is a judgement that needs to be made by an individual who chooses to accept the onus of spreading any teaching. Is the Teaching fragile or resilient? Is the individual who is spreading the Teaching capable and knowledgeable enough accept the risks and mitigate them? That means that there is probably not a single rule that is true for all religions, scriptures, and spiritual teachings. An evaluation on a case-by-case basis is probably best, i think.

If you worry, I think you should listen to that. It probably means that you're not ready to accept the responsibility of spreading the Teaching, When you are no longer worrying, then you will know that you are ready.

Best wishes my friend,

Thank you @dybmh

To think is, of course, something we need to do in cultivation We should ponder about what the teaching means, but we should not change its wording to become closer to what we understand it to say. we should read it, and cultivate or self until the true meaning is awakened to. (enlightenment process)
My OP was not meant to be read as "We follow teaching blindly" No, it is that when we do speak about the teaching with our own words, we have to be careful not to say wrong, or say Master Li say "so and so" and we use our own words to describe what Master actually said. Then we would misrepresent His teaching and it would be like making the teaching fault because we are not on the wisdom level of an enlightened being as Master Li actually is.

So my OP was with the thought of clarifying that when speaking it is important to say, this is how i understand the teaching, that means that yes we speak about the teaching, but it is from a lower wisdom level then its actual meaning. In Falun gong, only Li Hongzhi know and understand the full truth of his teaching.
The word of our master hold Gong energy so if we as students change Masters word we actually destroy its purpose.

 

[dybmh]

Thank you @dybmh

To think is, of course, something we need to do in cultivation We should ponder about what the teaching means, but we should not change its wording to become closer to what we understand it to say. we should read it, and cultivate or self until the true meaning is awakened to. (enlightenment process)
My OP was not meant to be read as "We follow teaching blindly" No, it is that when we do speak about the teaching with our own words, we have to be careful not to say wrong, or say Master Li say "so and so" and we use our own words to describe what Master actually said. Then we would misrepresent His teaching and it would be like making the teaching fault because we are not on the wisdom level of an enlightened being as Master Li actually is.

So my OP was with the thought of clarifying that when speaking it is important to say, this is how i understand the teaching, that means that yes we speak about the teaching, but it is from a lower wisdom level then its actual meaning. In Falun gong, only Li Hongzhi know and understand the full truth of his teaching.
The word of our master hold Gong energy so if we as students change Masters word we actually destroy its purpose.

I agree with every word. However, please correct me if I'm wrong? ... these words above only apply to Falun Dafa cultivators? And the OP had included all religious texts, scriptures, etc?

 

[Thief]

Does it harm the future of spiritual teaching for a future generation when we as human beings change the scripture from its original meaning to what we as unenlightened beings "think" it should mean?

yes....it does harm

instead of tweaking the words to suit what I believe.....
I place myself in the story

I view the event as if I am standing right there

someone here at the forum called me on that technique
he called it lectio divina

I had to look it up

I suggest we all do the same

and if you are curious.....my old thread.....
Can You See Him?
would be a display of what I do as I meditate

 

[Thief]

hmmm..

I can't seem to find that old thread

HELP!

 

[Spirit of Light]

I agree with every word. However, please correct me if I'm wrong? ... these words above only apply to Falun Dafa cultivators? And the OP had included all religious texts, scriptures, etc?

My answer was from Falun dafa in my understanding and words yes. But actually it does apply to all form of spiritual cultivation. Religions may not focus as much on it as cultivation does.

 

[dybmh]

My answer was from Falun dafa in my understanding and words yes. But actually it does apply to all form of spiritual cultivation. Religions may not focus as much on it as cultivation does.

OK. And that's where you and I disagree.

Here are my follow-up questions:

From a practical perspective, is it possible for any group of people to prevent scripture from being changed if it is shared? It seems like an impossible task, doesn't it?

If that is what is prescribed by Falun Gong, it doesn't sound compassionate to me. It also doesn't sound logical. Master Li is compassionate and logical. And because of that, i have a hard time accepting that he would ask his students to attempt to protect all orthodox religious texts from corruption per his request.

Those are a few of the reasons for my point of view on this subject. It seems like an impossible task, and that means that requesting it would be cruel and illogical, two qualities which do not fit for Master Li?

 

[Spirit of Light]

OK. And that's where you and I disagree.

Here are my follow-up questions:

From a practical perspective, is it possible for any group of people to prevent scripture from being changed if it is shared? It seems like an impossible task, doesn't it?

If that is what is prescribed by Falun Gong, it doesn't sound compassionate to me. It also doesn't sound logical. Master Li is compassionate and logical. And because of that, i have a hard time accepting that he would ask his students to attempt to protect all orthodox religious texts from corruption.

Those are a few of the reasons for my point of view on this subject. It seems like an impossible task, and that means that requesting it would be cruel and illogical, two qualities which do not fit for Master Li?

Now i speak freely from my own understanding of your question.
Mostly all previous spiritual text, Orthodox or not has fallen to the error of being changed when the teacher/master is gone, and that is when a cultivation path become a religion based only of belief, and not energy accumulated in cultivation. In my understanding wisdom is actually energy, just the same as thought is energy.

We are free to speak about Falun Dafa teaching, but when we say something about the teaching itself, we must address when we speak of our own understanding or when we quote master Li.
If we say Master Li said so and so, and we do not quote what he actually said, it is not Falun Dafa teaching, then it is merely our own interpretation of what the teaching is, and we have misrepresented the true teaching and word of Master Li Hongzhi.
When master Li Hongzhi one day die from this earth, he has already predicted that in some time, people will not use quote or speak directly from the teaching, and it is then Falun Gong will only become a religion and not a cultivation path as of what it is today (Falun Gong is not a Religion)

When an enlightened speaking, they speak the higher truth( at the level they are enlightened to). So if a not human being who has never cultivated or maybe only started cultivating Falun Gong tries to say what master Li says, it will of course not be at a enlighten level of wisdom, so I was to say Master Li say this and it means this, without a quote, and a very clear meaning that it is My understanding of masters word and not his actual true meaning with what he said, I would not be a very good cultivator.

This is a big difference from the cultivation path to religions. it is not the same thing. Because religions do not teach how to gain the wisdom needed to actually enlighten.religions are based on belief whereas cultivation is awakening to the truth within the teaching we read and study every day.

 

[dybmh]

Now i speak freely from my own understanding of your question.
Mostly all previous spiritual text, Orthodox or not has fallen to the error of being changed when the teacher/master is gone, and that is when a cultivation path become a religion based only of belief, and not energy accumulated in cultivation. In my understanding wisdom is actually energy, just the same as thought is energy.

We are free to speak about Falun Dafa teaching, but when we say something about the teaching itself, we must address when we speak of our own understanding or when we quote master Li.
If we say Master Li said so and so, and we do not quote what he actually said, it is not Falun Dafa teaching, then it is merely our own interpretation of what the teaching is, and we have misrepresented the true teaching and word of Master Li Hongzhi.
When master Li Hongzhi one day die from this earth, he has already predicted that in some time, people will not use quote or speak directly from the teaching, and it is then Falun Gong will only become a religion and not a cultivation path as of what it is today (Falun Gong is not a Religion)

When an enlightened speaking, they speak the higher truth( at the level they are enlightened to). So if a not human being who has never cultivated or maybe only started cultivating Falun Gong tries to say what master Li says, it will of course not be at a enlighten level of wisdom, so I was to say Master Li say this and it means this, without a quote, and a very clear meaning that it is My understanding of masters word and not his actual true meaning with what he said, I would not be a very good cultivator.

This is a big difference from the cultivation path to religions. it is not the same thing. Because religions do not teach how to gain the wisdom needed to actually enlighten.religions are based on belief whereas cultivation is awakening to the truth within the teaching we read and study every day.

OK. So... that's really useful. Now I feel like I can ask a less specific question...

we should read it, and cultivate or self until the true meaning is awakened to. (enlightenment process)

here's the only part that I am still a little confused about. The quote above seems to me to be specifically for cultivators, not for religions in your opinion? That's the part that I am confused about.

Here's the difference you described:

"When master Li Hongzhi one day die from this earth, he has already predicted that in some time, people will not use quote or speak directly from the teaching, and it is then Falun Gong will only become a religion and not a cultivation path as of what it is today (Falun Gong is not a Religion)"

"This is a big difference from the cultivation path to religions. it is not the same thing. Because religions do not teach how to gain the wisdom needed to actually enlighten."

And then here is the original statement:

"we should read it, and cultivate or self until the true meaning is awakened to. (enlightenment process)"

And now hopefully it's clear why I am confused? Without self cultivation, there is only one option, and that is "putting our own thoughts into the spiritual text". So how can Master Li discourage that and encourage it at the same time?

Simple.

Cultivators cultivate. Religious people follow their orthodox religions. ( It's in the text, I think ). The restrictions on cultivators are much more strict. That's all. And that means that Master Li's instructions, may not be intended for everyone. Maybe they only apply to cultivators. Maybe.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I hope my lack of correct English writing does not clutter the meaning of my post here, if it is difficult to understand the meaning of my OP, please ask me to explain more.

I been wondering for some time.
When we study or follow a spiritual teaching, and we begin to put our own interpretation of the actual words that are in the text. means we say or think, the teacher(s) must have been thinking this. and we ad our own words into the texts of for example the Bible, Buddhist scripture, Quran, and so on, or even worse, we change the wording of the teaching to fit our own life. Instead of trying to understand what the teaching actual text that is the teaching.

Does it harm the future of spiritual teaching for a future generation when we as human beings change the scripture from its original meaning to what we as unenlightened beings "think" it should mean?

When in discussion with others it is in my understanding good if we say or write, "in my understanding, it could mean this..." instead of saying it does mean this and maybe we did not understand the teaching fully our self. then we destroy spiritual teaching, are we not?

I don't have the full answer my self, but I worry if we keep changing the original texts of spiritual teaching it will become teaching that can not save us.

I think that writing something good enough to last a long time requires writing things as a dialogue. Rather than inform future people, you converse with future people. You leave space for other people to answer with their own thoughts in response to your thoughts. You predict what those thoughts will be using your own knowledge and experience, and in this way you are able to converse with people who have not yet been born. If you have great skill, then your writing will draw people into conversations shared by a large number of people. It will be a way to connect not just with you but with fellow participants in the same writing. Then it is scripture.

There are different ways that people accomplish this shared conversation: Some do it with fiction. Some do it with poetry. For some it involves more than just words and requires a common practice or ritual. Drugs can be involved or dreams or fasting etc. The military accomplishes similar effects with a boot camp -- shared experience and conversation, and soldiers today share in a common experience and conversation as ancient Roman soldiers. The difficulty of scripture is that language and people change, and so you are attempting to be understood in a future which may look nothing like that which you are familiar with. Stories appear to be the strongest common bond between people of the future and the past. We can often understand a story and have a common reaction to a story. These are the most common scriptures.

 

[leov]

I hope my lack of correct English writing does not clutter the meaning of my post here, if it is difficult to understand the meaning of my OP, please ask me to explain more.

I been wondering for some time.
When we study or follow a spiritual teaching, and we begin to put our own interpretation of the actual words that are in the text. means we say or think, the teacher(s) must have been thinking this. and we ad our own words into the texts of for example the Bible, Buddhist scripture, Quran, and so on, or even worse, we change the wording of the teaching to fit our own life. Instead of trying to understand what the teaching actual text that is the teaching.

Does it harm the future of spiritual teaching for a future generation when we as human beings change the scripture from its original meaning to what we as unenlightened beings "think" it should mean?

When in discussion with others it is in my understanding good if we say or write, "in my understanding, it could mean this..." instead of saying it does mean this and maybe we did not understand the teaching fully our self. then we destroy spiritual teaching, are we not?

I don't have the full answer my self, but I worry if we keep changing the original texts of spiritual teaching it will become teaching that can not save us.

I think that spiritual texts on a higher level (beyond literal) are intended to facilitate reader's own experience, as Christ Jesus said 'in spirit and truth'.

 

[Spirit of Light]

OK. So... that's really useful. Now I feel like I can ask a less specific question...



here's the only part that I am still a little confused about. The quote above seems to me to be specifically for cultivators, not for religions in your opinion? That's the part that I am confused about.

Here's the difference you described:

"When master Li Hongzhi one day die from this earth, he has already predicted that in some time, people will not use quote or speak directly from the teaching, and it is then Falun Gong will only become a religion and not a cultivation path as of what it is today (Falun Gong is not a Religion)"

"This is a big difference from the cultivation path to religions. it is not the same thing. Because religions do not teach how to gain the wisdom needed to actually enlighten."

And then here is the original statement:

"we should read it, and cultivate or self until the true meaning is awakened to. (enlightenment process)"

And now hopefully it's clear why I am confused? Without self cultivation, there is only one option, and that is "putting our own thoughts into the spiritual text".

Thank you for your question

Yes, when I speak it has to do with cultivation and cultivation path to do as long I don't specifically say otherwise. An example is that to be a cultivator of the Faun Dafa cultivation path, Or master ONLY see us as his students as long as we actually following the requirement for a cultivator.

1:Sending righteous thoughts (to eliminate evil in this cosmos and outside it)
2:Speaking up against the Chinese Communist Party and their persecution of both Falun Gong practitioners and of other people who are in danger of losing their life.
3: Doing 5 exercises for strengthening our gong energy and to develop some mechanism that our master install for us in a different dimension.
4. And of course the most important, self-cultivation of Zhen, Shan, Ren

When it comes to none practitioners, it is important to give them the possibility to hear about Cultivation and about falun gong.

Falun Gong is a high energy cultivation path (meaning one can reach very high enlightenment /wisdom level.

When it comes to religions, as i said earlier, they used to be cultivation paths in the beginning too, but when their master/teacher died, they decline in their cultivation and it becomes more of a religion.
Actually, the word religion is not so very old. less then 2000 year old.