Have You rejected God's Message?

[Vinayaka]

So are you saying in your sampradaya or Hinduism generally the your God or gods do not advise you to behave morally or ethically? I had thought there were karmic consequences for whatever we do.

Not surprisingly, that's an about change of topic. 'According to the New Testament it is part of the human condition that we all fall short of the Grace of God and are in need of redemption (Romans 3:23-24). I suspect there is a similar narrative in other faiths.' and then this? Do you read what you write?

 

[SigurdReginson]

Good afternoon. Nice to see you again. I feel like I have a neighbor now.

Thanks for sharing a little bit about your religious background. I was not raised as a Christian and I was never a Christian, which was virtually unheard of back when I was raised in the 1950s and 1960s in the United States, when most everyone was a Christian. As I recall, the statistics is that in the 1950s 95% of people in the United States were Christians. Both my parents were raised as Christians but they both dropped out of Christianity before any of their children were born, so I never saw the inside of a Church or a Bible during my childhood. There was no talk about God that I can ever recall and I never thought about God.

I fell in love with the teachings of the Baha'i Faith and I got caught up in the "vision" of the Baha'i Faith, the oneness of humanity, so I became a Baha'i during my first year of college. It is a long story what happened after that. Needless to say, I was not "engaged" in the religious organization and I did not "really believe" in God. Although I believed that a God existed I had no real connection with God through prayer or meditation or the scriptures. Then about seven years ago, I made a decision to give religion and God another try which was the same time I started posting on forums. It has been quite a journey since that time and I now I "know" that God exists and I know more about God, but I still have "issues" with God, as God is depicted in religious scriptures.

Most people do not believe me, but I never read one verse from the Bible until seven years ago when I started posting on forums, because I never saw a need to. Mind you, I was not even interested in my own religion so why delve into the Bible? The reason I started reading the Bible is because as soon as I started on forums I went to Christian forums and got engaged in dialogues, mostly about the return of Christ. I later branched off into a mostly atheist forum where I spent most of my time before I came here two years ago.

But to double back, I had a kind of spiritual awakening in June 2014 because of a crisis I went through so in the fall of that year I started my own forum. It used to be quite active until I branched off into that atheist forum and was too busy to maintain it. The reason I started a forum was so I could converse with Christians on a neutral ground because I was unable to share on Christian forums without getting moderated or banned for my beliefs. But then I opened my forum up to everyone who wanted to discuss anything spiritual, including nonbelievers and any religion or just believers with no religion. What ended up happening is that I had extensive dialogues with one Christian who became my friend and most of my other posters have been atheists who were formerly Christians.

Since most of my dialogues on forums other than this one have been with ex-Christian atheists I understand many of the reasons people drop out of Christianity, but of course everyone is unique so their reasons are also unique. My other hat and one I wore much longer than my religion hat is psychology, which I studied for many years, so I am fascinated with human behavior and why people think what they think and do what they do.

Howdy neighbor!

That is pretty rare. My dad was raised as a Mormon, but my mom was raised Baptist. They are both Evangelicals now. I was pretty much raised as an Evangelical as well, and I studied the bible a little (I've read it 3 times or so). I developed my love of history in the cultural tales of the old testament, and in the local native American tales I was surrounded by. I was also involved with the church quite a bit, and was involved with a lot of volunteer work back then. I've volunteered some since then, but I miss that aspect of church. I might check out the local UU church and try them out to see if it's a fit for me, just because I miss the community volunteer stuff.

I think the idea behind the Baha'i faith that we're are all connected and the desire to bring everyone together really is beautiful. It, as a religion, also makes more sense than Christianity IMO from what I've heard about it. That said, I've noticed that people of a given religious walk will have a different perspective. Though I would consider myself an Atheist as of now, Christianity certainly has colored the way I percieve the world. I will say I admire your willingness to engage in conversation with folks of differing views. I wish more folks would be that open minded.

Now, I'm curious. Since you've spoken with so many atheists on the subject, how have their perspectives influenced yours, if at all? I feel people of all walks offer a unique perspective that helps one to get a wider perspective on the world we live in. It's definitely influenced my own perspectives, and it has forced me to question my views and to reevaluate my understandings on things. I've also gained an appreciation for our differences, and the way we live our lives. I feel I've gained more of a bird's eye view on the world, but there is still so much more to learn.

As for psychology, I might get into that some day. It seems like something I'd enjoy. Maybe when I go back to school, heh.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, I guess that is the claim. But until you know there is a deity, you can't know the claimed 'messenger' is from a deity, and so cannot know the 'messenger' is reliable.

The Messenger must be judged on His own merit. That is the only way.

It sounds like a very convenient setup for the messenger, doesn't it?

That implies that the Messenger gets something for Himself out of the arrangement, but since He sacrifices everything He has for a lifetime of rejection and suffering there is no logical reason He would endure all of this if He was not doing it for God. The most you could say is that He was delusional and only *believed* that God communicated with Him, but you would be hard pressed to prove how a delusional man could or would do what Baha'u'llah did or write what He wrote.

The point? ANY belief system that requires belief before knowledge is problematic. Any system that has this at its core should be rejected out of hand (in my opinion).

I consider it highly illogical that we could know anything about God without some kind of Intermediary to bridge the gap between an ineffable God and humans. Messengers act as that Intermediary because they are both divine and human.

 

[Trailblazer]

And I find it unfortunate and sad that people waste their time believing in deities. As far as I can see, *all* theologies are merely placing one's own intuitions into the directives of an imaginary father figure. I don't know why people keep discussing it.

I understand how you feel. What I do not understand is why so many atheists keep discussing the god they do not believe in, unless they have a desire to believe in Him; and if they do, I do not understand why they keep referring to the Bible as if it was the only scripture that ever existed and as if it is a reliable source of information about God.

 

[Polymath257]

I understand how you feel. What I do not understand is why so many atheists keep discussing the god they do not believe in, unless they have a desire to believe in Him; and if they do, I do not understand why they keep referring to the Bible as if it was the only scripture that ever existed and as if it is a reliable source of information about God.

Well, the primary reason you see this is that anyone from Western Europe or the Americas is immersed in a culture based on the Bible. The discussion of the Bible is usually more directed to attempting to keep the religion under containment so it doesn't do more damage to the society than has already been done. Islam and Ba'hai have relatively little influence on public policy, so are not as relevant to that goal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg -

Shouldn't there be a spoiler alert tag somewhere on the original post? You know, where a member clicks on it to learn that everyone who is not Baha'i has rejected G-d's message because they have rejected the person that Baha'i regards as the latest messenger, the latest manifestation of G-d?

It is all the Messages, we need to consider.

Baha'u'llah is but one who has that in the Writings.

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

I studied some Bahai and Babi texts. I reject both but don't believe I have reject the message of God.

While it's important and dire of importance to accept the Messengers of God, it's of equal importance, not to believe in liars and deceivers, and equate human words with divine revelation to humanity in form of scripture.

 

[dybmh]

Have you rejected a Message given by God?

apparently...

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not surprisingly, that's an about change of topic. 'According to the New Testament it is part of the human condition that we all fall short of the Grace of God and are in need of redemption (Romans 3:23-24). I suspect there is a similar narrative in other faiths.' and then this? Do you read what you write?

I understand what I've written but I'm not sure you have. The Jewish people were bound by the laws of the Torah. The Jewish Messenger or Messiah Jesus freed them from the responsibilities of following many of those laws but provided an alternative set of requirements for those who choose to follow Him. This created a new paradigm or framework for viewing the world. In regards consequences for action and inaction He simply restated the laws that were the the central or over riding principles of the Torah, echoed by the Apostles. In support of this principle we have verses such as Jeremiah 17:10. Hosea 10:12, Luke 6:38 and Galatians 6:7. There are dozens of others but I hope this is sufficient to make the point that the Torah and New Testament emphasise actions and consequences. The choice of which Messenger to follow is just as crucial. Whether the choice is Moses. Christ, the gods of the Greco-Roman world or to simply avoid any of it is still a choice. The right choices in life can lead to redemption or put another way, freedom from the cycle of birth and death.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is it you wish to debate?

It may not be relevant to you as you are not book based.

I was meditating this morning I realised all the Holy Books have a finality and a promise of more to come. They also a a covenant of acceptance.

Thus the quandary.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand what I've written but I'm not sure you have. The Jewish people were bound by the laws of the Torah. The Jewish Messenger or Messiah Jesus freed them from the responsibilities of following many of those laws but provided an alternative set of requirements for those who choose to follow Him. This created a new paradigm or framework for viewing the world. In regards consequences for action and inaction He simply restated the laws that were the the central or over riding principles of the Torah, echoed by the Apostles. In support of this principle we have verses such as Jeremiah 17:10. Hosea 10:12, Luke 6:38 and Galatians 6:7. There are dozens of others but I hope this is sufficient to make the point that the Torah and New Testament emphasise actions and consequences. The choice of which Messenger to follow is just as crucial. Whether the choice is Moses. Christ, the gods of the Greco-Roman world or to simply avoid any of it is still a choice. The right choices in life can lead to redemption or put another way, freedom from the cycle of birth and death.

Rather than going on some long-winded irrelevant rant, maybe you could just explain what you mean by 'in need of redemption'. The rest is all Greek to me.

 

[Vinayaka]

It may not be relevant to you as you are not book based.

I was meditating this morning I realised all the Holy Books have a finality and a promise of more to come. They also a a covenant of acceptance.

Thus the quandary.

Regards Tony

But ... what is it you wish to debate?

 

[Trailblazer]

Howdy neighbor!

That is pretty rare. My dad was raised as a Mormon, but my mom was raised Baptist. They are both Evangelicals now. I was pretty much raised as an Evangelical as well, and I studied the bible a little (I've read it 3 times or so). I developed my love of history in the cultural tales of the old testament, and in the local native American tales I was surrounded by.

My mom was raised Greek Orthodox, my dad was Anglican (Church of England). Their roots were in Rochester, NY. So I am guessing you were not raised in Western WA State.

I was also involved with the church quite a bit, and was involved with a lot of volunteer work back then. I've volunteered some since then, but I miss that aspect of church. I might check out the local UU church and try them out to see if it's a fit for me, just because I miss the community volunteer stuff.

I am sure there is a lot of volunteer work you can do, and I would not think you would have to be a member of the Church.

I think the idea behind the Baha'i faith that we're are all connected and the desire to bring everyone together really is beautiful. It, as a religion, also makes more sense than Christianity IMO from what I've heard about it.

There is really a lot more to the Baha'i Faith than I ever knew when I joined but I know a lot more now mostly because of having conversed on forums, fielding questions and discussing it with others, which forced me to have to read for myself so I could discuss my beliefs. I am not good at doing things just for myself, but I will do anything for others, anything within my capacity.

That said, I've noticed that people of a given religious walk will have a different perspective. Though I would consider myself an Atheist as of now, Christianity certainly has colored the way I percieve the world. I will say I admire your willingness to engage in conversation with folks of differing views. I wish more folks would be that open minded.

I much prefer to engage in dialogues with people of different religions and atheists because I learn so much and it is more interesting than having discussions with those who share my beliefs. There is a lot I like about Christianity but I could not be a Christian because it is too exclusive. I could never be any religion that does not recognize all the major religions as true which is why I could only be a Baha'i.

Now, I'm curious. Since you've spoken with so many atheists on the subject, how have their perspectives influenced yours, if at all? I feel people of all walks offer a unique perspective that helps one to get a wider perspective on the world we live in. It's definitely influenced my own perspectives, and it has forced me to question my views and to reevaluate my understandings on things. I've also gained an appreciation for our differences, and the way we live our lives. I feel I've gained more of a bird's eye view on the world, but there is still so much more to learn.

Talking to so many atheists has helped me to understand why they do not believe in God but it has not caused me to question that God exists. But I do understand why some things that believers believe about God are questionable, such as God being All-Loving. Not so much on this forum, but on other forums an All-Good God is called into question by atheists because of all the suffering in the world. I am on the same page with atheists on this, but because of Baha'u'llah cannot not believe in God and that God is good (I say that with glib tongue in cheek. )

I continue to struggle with some of what is attributed to God in various scriptures and will probably do so for the remainder of my life. For me, a belief has to make logical sense if I am going to believe it, and all the suffering as well as the fact that suffering is so unevenly distributed, does not make complete sense to me. I understand what my religion teaches about that and I accept the reasons for suffering to a certain extent, but not fully, so God is kind of in the dog house.

As for psychology, I might get into that some day. It seems like something I'd enjoy. Maybe when I go back to school, heh.

There is still time as you are so young... My first degrees were a BA and an MA in Geography and that is what I have used for my career. I made the decision to go back to school and get a second MA in Psychology in my late 30s but I did not get my degree till I was 44 years old. Then I went to a School of Homeopathy and got another degree three years later. But I never used either degree for a career. I stayed with my original career as a GIS Cartographer and I will retire out of that career.

 

[Bird123]

The title is supported by each faith in each of the Messages given, in one way or another, where rejection of the Message is lack of Faith in God.

Thus for a Jew, A Christian, A Muslim and many others, of other Faiths, this results in the thought process that others have rejected God by not accepting the Message they hold to.

Baha'u'llah has said in a prayer;

"... Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity..."

That is the discussion.

Have you rejected a Message given by God?

Regards Tony

Whether or not one decides to accept or reject a message from God, one must be sure the message comes from God. One should never rely on mere Beliefs in making such a choice. Since everyone already knows God whether they realize they know God or not, God will deliver any messages from God personally. You will remember God then.

Oh yes, if you are not getting any personal messages from God, Be Who You Must! It's a Part of the Plan!

That's what I am seeing. Yes, it is very Clear to me.

 

[Vinayaka]

Whether or not one decides to accept or reject a message from God, one must be sure the message comes from God.

No kidding. How many murders have happened because 'God told me to do it.'

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, the primary reason you see this is that anyone from Western Europe of the Americas is immersed in a culture based on the Bible. The discussion of the Bible is usually more directed to attempting to keep the religion under containment so it doesn't do more damage to the society than has already been done. Islam and Ba'hai have relatively little influence on public policy, so are not as relevant to that goal.

That makes logical sense, but from a Baha'i perspective I wish they would put the Bible on the shelf where it belongs. Mind you, most Baha'is do not feel this way and they get after me for saying that but I can only be me.

If I say any more about the Bible I will be in the dog house. One thing I have learned from atheists is about the damaging effects of the Bible and now it is hard to see the good in it among all the bad. How any good God allowed it to be written is anyone's best guess.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Rather than going on some long-winded irrelevant rant, maybe you could just explain what you mean by 'in need of redemption'. The rest is all Greek to me.

You sound a little irritable today.

In Christianity there is no reincarnation so we either achieve our purpose in this life or we don't. So Christians believe we have this life to get it right, no second chances. That is redemption that I'm equating with freeing ourselves from the cycle of birth and rebirth to avoid suffering, what the Buddhists call Samsara.

 

[blü 2]

The title is supported by each faith in each of the Messages given, in one way or another, where rejection of the Message is lack of Faith in God.

Thus for a Jew, A Christian, A Muslim and many others, of other Faiths, this results in the thought process that others have rejected God by not accepting the Message they hold to.

Baha'u'llah has said in a prayer;

"... Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity..."

That is the discussion.

Have you rejected a Message given by God?

Regards Tony

I've never worked out what a (real) God is (and not just me ─ no one seems to know).

So I've never worked out how anyone could tell whether any particular message was from a god or not.

These days I try to be a decent human and leave it at that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Almighty God cannot deliver a simple Message to all humans.

No, God cannot come to earth and deliver the message Himself, so He has to rely upon a Messenger.
It's really that simple.

 

[Vinayaka]

You sound a little irritable today.

In Christianity there is no reincarnation so we either achieve our purpose in this life or we don't. So Christians believe we have this life to get it right, no second chances. That is redemption that I'm equating with freeing ourselves from the cycle of birth and rebirth to avoid suffering, what the Buddhists call Samsara.

Well, when folks continue to put my faith in 'all religions' when it's plainly not true, I'm supposed to not disagree? Sure. Hindus don't need saving from anything, and we'd rather be left out of such discussions, as we're in a different paradigm, as you know.