Witchcraft in Judaism

[Harel13]

This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches that wielded the dark forces (that woman from Ein-Dor aka the witch of Endor, stories from the gemara, etc), and I get that there are dark forces in the world (discussed well by the Ramchal in Derech Hashem) - but how did people originally figure out how to use these dark forces? How did they figure out the techniques, spells(?), etc? Were they just mumbling gibberish all day and seeing what worked?
I mean, were Adam and Eve created with witchcraft knowledge inserted into their minds? Even if so, after having sinned in the Garden, why pass that knowledge on?

Kind of a weird question...

 

[dybmh]

how did people originally figure out how

Adam... Sefer Yetzirah?

 

[Harel13]

Adam... Sefer Yetzirah?

Sefer Yetzirah is kabbalah, which is part of Torah and which has drashot on how Torah was like pre-Sinai. But where did it The Dark Arts come from?

 

[Tumah]

This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches that wielded the dark forces (that woman from Ein-Dor aka the witch of Endor, stories from the gemara, etc), and I get that there are dark forces in the world (discussed well by the Ramchal in Derech Hashem) - but how did people originally figure out how to use these dark forces? How did they figure out the techniques, spells(?), etc? Were they just mumbling gibberish all day and seeing what worked?
I mean, were Adam and Eve created with witchcraft knowledge inserted into their minds? Even if so, after having sinned in the Garden, why pass that knowledge on?

Kind of a weird question...

Your question needs a little nuance. There are two schools of thought among the Geonim and Rishonim, the rationalists and the kabalists. The rationalists like Rav Shmuel ben Chafni Gaon and the Rambam do not agree that witchcraft exists at all. According to them, they are different types of tricks and illusions. It's generally more the kabbalist schools that takes the position you're describing and agree with Talmudic/Midrashic interpretations where these types of things are discussed. So really you're asking according to the latter opinion.

I have no seen any sources that discuss this, but I don't think the question is so difficult to answer. The names of impure forces is not prohibited knowledge, only using them. And the Sanhedrin were required to have this knowledge (or know how these illusions were done according to the rationalists). Someone who's willing to make use of this knowledge could question these forces to learn how to to do so.

You should also check out the Rada"k on the story with the witch. Even according to the second opinion, it wasn't supposed to work.

 

[Harel13]

According to them, they are different types of tricks and illusions

And even these are so illegal halachic-wise that they'd be punishable by death?

The names of impure forces is not prohibited knowledge, only using them.

But where did those names come from? How did mankind come to know them?

 

[Tumah]

And even these are so illegal halachic-wise that they'd be punishable by death?

The main underlying issue with all of it is that it's a form of idolatry or leads others to idolatry. That's punishable by death.

But where did those names come from? How did mankind come to know them?

Isn't it part of [hidden] Torah? These forces are a part of the system that G-d created.

 

[Harel13]

The main underlying issue with all of it is that it's a form of idolatry or leads others to idolatry. That's punishable by death.


Isn't it part of [hidden] Torah? These forces are a part of the system that G-d created.

Makes sense, thanks.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is something that's been bugging me for a couple of years now: I get that there used to be actual witches ...

That's possibly not the best presumption.

 

[Harel13]

That's possibly not the best presumption.

I didn't invent this, so what's your point?

 

[dybmh]

Sefer Yetzirah is kabbalah, which is part of Torah and which has drashot on how Torah was like pre-Sinai. But where did it The Dark Arts come from?

I don't know, but I could guess.

The Dark Arts ( assuming they are not a figment of imagination ) come from G-d. But Jewish people shouldn't use them.

The Dark Arts ( aka Witchcraft ) though in English is a catch-all term. There's a lot of different types of witchcraft. There's only one though, that I can think of which at all resembles something which would have madybe come from a Jewish source... sorcery. That one might have it's origins in the 32 paths ( Sefer Yetzirah ). But that's it as far as I know. And even that would be a maybe. All the other occult practices that I have heard of, they are so so not kosher. On multiple levels.

But really the Occult ( assuming it's even real and even works ) isn't any different from any other prohibited thing, if you ask me. It's from G-d but not for us. That's how I feel about it. And if there is an original source for it, it would from G-d, but from the "hinder-part" ( Likutei Amarim 22 ) **from our perspective**.

Could be G-d's countenance shines on others in different ways. I. Don't. know.

 

[dybmh]

@Harel13

There's this thing in America called "The Peanut Gallery"

Also, there's this thing called a Heckler... maybe you've heard of them:

The thing is, both of these examples... the Person in the peanut gallery is actually pretty smart... they just express it via criticism as a member of the audience.

Most performers will tell you to ignore the Peanut Gallery and the Hecklers when they say something stupid... but to listen when they say something smart. If you can get over the rude manner that delivers the message.

Best example is in the Muppet Show:

 

[Harel13]

I don't know, but I could guess.

The Dark Arts ( assuming they are not a figment of imagination ) come from G-d. But Jewish people shouldn't use them.

The Dark Arts ( aka Witchcraft ) though in English is a catch-all term. There's a lot of different types of witchcraft. There's only one though, that I can think of which at all resembles something which would have madybe come from a Jewish source... sorcery. That one might have it's origins in the 32 paths ( Sefer Yetzirah ). But that's it as far as I know. And even that would be a maybe. All the other occult practices that I have heard of, they are so so not kosher. On multiple levels.

But really the Occult ( assuming it's even real and even works ) isn't any different from any other prohibited thing, if you ask me. It's from G-d but not for us. That's how I feel about it. And if there is an original source for it, it would from G-d, but from the "hinder-part" ( Likutei Amarim 22 ) **from our perspective**.

Could be G-d's countenance shines on others in different ways. I. Don't. know.

I hope you don't think that I'm interested in practicing witchcraft. It's just something that has puzzled me. Maimonides, for example, explains that names of different idols were simply invented by false prophets. But if you go on the route that says that there was such a thing as witchcraft, how did it all start? I don't think I'd get any results by making up words all day long. That was my question.

 

[dybmh]

I hope you don't think that I'm interested in practicing witchcraft.

No, that was for any other reader that happens on this thread

Maimonides, for example, explains that names of different idols were simply invented by false prophets. But if you go on the route that says that there was such a thing as witchcraft, how did it all start? I don't think I'd get any results by making up words all day long. That was my question.

I hate to answer your question with a question, but why do both examples ( misguided prophets and occult practices ) need to have the same origin here, HaAretz/Asiyah?

That's why I answered the way i did in the very beginning. Any other answer ( that I can provide ) does not belong here in the Judaism-Dir. ( IMHO )

 

[Harel13]

but why do both examples have to have the same origin here, HaAretz/Asiyah?

That's what I'm saying, I don't think they have the same origins.

 

[dybmh]

That's what I'm saying, I don't think they have the same origins.

Agreed.

Also note: when I was talking about sorcery... technically, only a subset would have any possibility of compatibility with the 32 paths. There are similarities, but they are, as far as I know, coincidences, nothing more. Those similarities are not strong evidence for a shared source. But, it's a huge topic.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Respectful questions:

• So, is exorcism an unnecessary and/or alien concept in any of the traditional Judaic sects?
• Has it always been, and if not: since when?

 

[dybmh]

So, is exorcism an unnecessary and/or alien concept in any of the traditional Judaic sects?

I vote Yes, it's unnecessary and alien... anything resembling that would be attributed to the Yetzer Hara. And the remedy for that is life.

( Edit: not to mention that the Reform Movement and Conservative Movement frown on the whole idea of angels, demons, etc... )

 

[rosends]

Respectful questions:

• So, is exorcism an unnecessary and/or alien concept in any of the traditional Judaic sects?
• Has it always been, and if not: since when?

Though this is not related to witch craft, it touches on what others might think of as "exorcisms"

https://www.amazon.com/Dybbuk-Gershon-Winkler/dp/091081838X

 

[Tumah]

So, is exorcism an unnecessary and/or alien concept in any of the traditional Judaic sects?
Has it always been, and if not: since when?

Yes and no. I'm not familiar with demons possessing humans being a thing in Judaism. But we do have a thing where the souls of deceased human may posses a person. When it's done in a beneficial manner it's called ibur (impregnation) and when it's done in a detrimental manner it's called dibuk (attachment). The latter is usually identified with a non-responsive host and a voice that appears to come out of a random body part who has knowledge beyond what the host is expected to know.

I don't know how far back the concepts go. They're last well known examples of Rabbis who would "exorcise" these souls in Europe and the Middle East were in the first half of the 20th century.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Though this is not related to witch craft,

And I just found: "THE DYBBUK MELODY And OtherThemes and Variations", Translations from Yiddish by Joachim Neugroschel

"Introduction

Like many other Yiddish authors, S. Ansky (1863–1920) wrote not only realistic but also supernatural stories, for which he drew on the mystical tales handed down in Chasidic communities. Some of this material was derived from the Talmud and some from the Cabala, though heavily simplified and popularized; indeed, the hermetic lore and arcane erudition of the medieval Cabalists was turned upside down by Chasidism, which preaches plain and direct understanding of religion—especially by the uneducated. A crucial factor in Chasidic life is the tsáddik (or rébbe or guter-yíd), the “guru”
of a sect: and Chasidic literature, both oral and written, is replete with paeans to and legends about these leaders. A background for the world of A Dybbuk can be partly found in the narratives translated here. In addition to some of Ansky’s own supernatural pieces, we are including some of the folktales he collected in 1912–1914, when his ethnographic expedition visited Jewish communities throughout Eastern Europe, gathering songs and stories, rituals and superstitions. In order to tie them together, the selection of these folktales concentrates on stories about music. And, to add a romantic touch, we have also added an erotic fantasy by Dovid-Ber Horovitz (1895–1942), who so sensually depicted Chasidism against the pantheistic backdrop of the Carpathian landscape."