He was a murderer from the beginning.

[LightofTruth]

Nothing you said proves that there was sin in Adam and Eve before they ate of the fruit. Yes, all died in Adam when he ate. That doesn't prove there was sin in Adam before he ate.

Good-Ole-Rebel

James says that ones own lust gives birth to sin and sin death. Since Adam's sin has brought death to all, it was his own lust of the flesh that caused him to eat the fruit and thus bring death to everyone.
Lust of the flesh is sin in the flesh because the law says thou shall not covet.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

James says that ones own lust gives birth to sin and sin death. Since Adam's sin has brought death to all, it was his own lust of the flesh that caused him to eat the fruit and thus bring death to everyone.
Lust of the flesh is sin in the flesh because the law says thou shall not covet.

James is not addressing Adam prior to the fall. He is addressing man after the fall.

No, Adam had no lust of the flesh prior to the fall. You are in essence saying God created Adam a sinner. And as Adam is in the image of God, then God must be a sinner.

With man, sin brings death. (Rom. 5:12) Adam was under no pronouncement of death until he ate of the fruit. (Gen. 2:17) Therefor there was no sin in Adam or Eve until they ate.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It's mythology. Mythology is never empty.

I don't believe one can rightly call that which the Bible reveals as 'mythology'. It claims to be the Truth. Thus to me it is either the Truth or a lie.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[LightofTruth]

James is not addressing Adam prior to the fall. He is addressing man after the fall.

No, Adam had no lust of the flesh prior to the fall. You are in essence saying God created Adam a sinner. And as Adam is in the image of God, then God must be a sinner.

With man, sin brings death. (Rom. 5:12) Adam was under no pronouncement of death until he ate of the fruit. (Gen. 2:17) Therefor there was no sin in Adam or Eve until they ate.

Good-Ole-Rebel

The scripture says that Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye and DESIRED to make one wise.
If that's not lust of the flesh and of the eye, what is it?

God did not create Adam a sinner, he created him the natural man of the earth. Adam's flesh became sinful with the introduction of law.

Listen to what Paul says of Adam in 1 Cor 15:

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Paul says that the first man is the natural man made from dust. And "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; And that we all have borne that same image.

The natural, made of dust body, is the flesh and blood body which cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It NEEDS to be changed into a spiritual body. The natural flesh and blood body, made of dust, of Adam, the first man, could therefore not inherit the kingdom of God simply because it would have to have been changed. And WHY? Because it is sinful flesh.

 

[LightofTruth]

Adam was not created immortal. If he were then he would not be subject to death. That's what immortal means. It means , not subject to death.

In the garden was another tree called the tree of life. If Adam had eaten from the tree of life he would have been made immortal. His natural body, made from dust, would have been changed to a spiritual body born from above (not below). But since he sinned, he was kept from the tree of life because a sinner cannot freely eat of the tree of life and live forever.

Adam sinned because his natural flesh and blood body was tempted by its own lust/desire. And that lust gave birth to sin ans sin to death.

 

[sooda]

Eve knew the fruit was forbidden, she even said so. When Eve accepted the lie of the serpent over what she knew God had said, then Eve made the lie her own and seeing that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye, and desired to make one wise, she took it and gave to Adam.
So, what was it that could make Eve accept a lie rather than obey God? It was the sin in her flesh! And the wages of sin is death. So sin in the flesh and the devil are the same thing. Because, first comes lust then comes sin and sin brings death.

Just about every culture has a tree of knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I don't believe one can rightly call that which the Bible reveals as 'mythology'. It claims to be the Truth. Thus to me it is either the Truth or a lie.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Truth, with a capital "T," as you put it, distinguishing it as a special truth. Truth depends a certain amount on context.

Mythologically, truths (or "Truths") refer to the experience of an individual within the context of the symbolic nature of the myth.

For instance, I find truth in the Garden of Eden story where humanity finds itself separated from nature by its Ego (the flaming sword guarding it and providing the means of entrance). But this is not a literal truth. It is not a lie either.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The scripture says that Eve saw that the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye and DESIRED to make one wise.
If that's not lust of the flesh and of the eye, what is it?

God did not create Adam a sinner, he created him the natural man of the earth. Adam's flesh became sinful with the introduction of law.

Listen to what Paul says of Adam in 1 Cor 15:

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Paul says that the first man is the natural man made from dust. And "As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; And that we all have borne that same image.

The natural, made of dust body, is the flesh and blood body which cannot inherit the kingdom of God. It NEEDS to be changed into a spiritual body. The natural flesh and blood body, made of dust, of Adam, the first man, could therefore not inherit the kingdom of God simply because it would have to have been changed. And WHY? Because it is sinful flesh.

Eve was deceived by satan. Until she ate, she had no sin in herself. Until she ate she did not hide herself from God. Just as with Adam. (Gen. 3:7) Until Eve ate she was not under the sentence of death. Just like with Adam. (Gen. 2:17) If there is no death upon Adam and Eve, then there is no sin in them.

The introduction of the command to not eat of the tree, did not make Adam a sinner. God said in (Gen. 2:17) that the day they eat of it they will surely die. Thus no death till that time. Thus they are not sinners till that time.

Your speech on (1 Cor. 15) is just smoke. The comparison between Christ and Adam in no way indicates that Adam was a sinner before he ate of the fruit. That Adam being just of flesh and not the main goal of God, no way indicates Adam was a sinner before the fall. Adam was not 'sinful flesh' till he ate of the fruit.

As I said, you are making God a sinner. For Adam and Eve were created in the image of God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Truth, with a capital "T," as you put it, distinguishing it as a special truth. Truth depends a certain amount on context.

Mythologically, truths (or "Truths") refer to the experience of an individual within the context of the symbolic nature of the myth.

For instance, I find truth in the Garden of Eden story where humanity finds itself separated from nature by its Ego (the flaming sword guarding it and providing the means of entrance). But this is not a literal truth. It is not a lie either.

Who says (Gen. 1-3) is not literal truth? You?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Just about every culture has a tree of knowledge of good and evil and a tree of life.

And?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sooda]

Eve was deceived by satan. Until she ate, she had no sin in herself. Until she ate she did not hide herself from God. Just as with Adam. (Gen. 3:7) Until Eve ate she was not under the sentence of death. Just like with Adam. (Gen. 2:17) If there is no death upon Adam and Eve, then there is no sin in them.

The introduction of the command to not eat of the tree, did not make Adam a sinner. God said in (Gen. 2:17) that the day they eat of it they will surely die. Thus no death till that time. Thus they are not sinners till that time.

Your speech on (1 Cor. 15) is just smoke. The comparison between Christ and Adam in no way indicates that Adam was a sinner before he ate of the fruit. That Adam being just of flesh and not the main goal of God, no way indicates Adam was a sinner before the fall. Adam was not 'sinful flesh' till he ate of the fruit.

As I said, you are making God a sinner. For Adam and Eve were created in the image of God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Quite a yarn, isn't it?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Who says (Gen. 1-3) is not literal truth? You?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Sure. Why couldn't I say it?

 

[LightofTruth]

Eve was deceived by satan. Until she ate, she had no sin in herself. Until she ate she did not hide herself from God. Just as with Adam. (Gen. 3:7) Until Eve ate she was not under the sentence of death. Just like with Adam. (Gen. 2:17) If there is no death upon Adam and Eve, then there is no sin in them.

The introduction of the command to not eat of the tree, did not make Adam a sinner. God said in (Gen. 2:17) that the day they eat of it they will surely die. Thus no death till that time. Thus they are not sinners till that time.

Your speech on (1 Cor. 15) is just smoke. The comparison between Christ and Adam in no way indicates that Adam was a sinner before he ate of the fruit. That Adam being just of flesh and not the main goal of God, no way indicates Adam was a sinner before the fall. Adam was not 'sinful flesh' till he ate of the fruit. From her OWN lust! Just as James says. Lust gives birth to sin and sin death.

As I said, you are making God a sinner. For Adam and Eve were created in the image of God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Hmm, lets see, you failed to answer my question, first off.
The scripture says that Eve saw the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise, so she took it and gave to Adam.
Now, was Eve deceived into seeing the fruit was good for food and pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise?
No, she was not. That came from her own lust.
So, can you answer my question?
If that is not lust of the eye and of the flesh, what is it?

In other words, Eve knew that the fruit was forbidden, but seeing that it was good for food and pleasant to the eye, she took it anyway. And it was her who fell in the transgression.
The Scripture never says that the serpent told her it was good for food and pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise, NO, Eve saw that herself.

 

[LightofTruth]

Eve was deceived by satan. Until she ate, she had no sin in herself. Until she ate she did not hide herself from God. Just as with Adam. (Gen. 3:7) Until Eve ate she was not under the sentence of death. Just like with Adam. (Gen. 2:17) If there is no death upon Adam and Eve, then there is no sin in them.

The introduction of the command to not eat of the tree, did not make Adam a sinner. God said in (Gen. 2:17) that the day they eat of it they will surely die. Thus no death till that time. Thus they are not sinners till that time.

Your speech on (1 Cor. 15) is just smoke. The comparison between Christ and Adam in no way indicates that Adam was a sinner before he ate of the fruit. That Adam being just of flesh and not the main goal of God, no way indicates Adam was a sinner before the fall. Adam was not 'sinful flesh' till he ate of the fruit.

As I said, you are making God a sinner. For Adam and Eve were created in the image of God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

You seem confused. I never said they were sinners before they ate of the tree. You need to learn to read with comprehension. I said they had sin in their flesh which caused them to become sinners/transgressors. Just as James says, it is lust that brings forth sin, and sin death.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Quite a yarn, isn't it?

To you, yes it is.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Sure. Why couldn't I say it?

Oh. Well, of course. You can say whatever you like.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Hmm, lets see, you failed to answer my question, first off.
The scripture says that Eve saw the fruit was good for food, pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise, so she took it and gave to Adam.
Now, was Eve deceived into seeing the fruit was good for food and pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise?
No, she was not. That came from her own lust.
So, can you answer my question?
If that is not lust of the eye and of the flesh, what is it?

In other words, Eve knew that the fruit was forbidden, but seeing that it was good for food and pleasant to the eye, she took it anyway. And it was her who fell in the transgression.
The Scripture never says that the serpent told her it was good for food and pleasant to the eye and desired to make one wise, NO, Eve saw that herself.

I did answer. No, Eve's perception of the fruit was based upon the deception satan gave She had no lust in her heart or flesh at that time.

satan did tell Eve that the fruit would make one wise. (Gen. 3:5) God never told her or Adam that. She had no sin in herself until she ate. Just like Adam.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You seem confused. I never said they were sinners before they ate of the tree. You need to learn to read with comprehension. I said they had sin in their flesh which caused them to become sinners/transgressors. Just as James says, it is lust that brings forth sin, and sin death.

If they had sin in their flesh, then they were sinners. Being a transgressor wouldn't matter. James is dealing with fallen man, not unfallen Adam, as I said. Fallen man can be obedient to a law, which means he is not a transgressor. But he is still a sinner.

Remember, Adam was not deceived. Eve was. It is not Eve's sin that was imputed to mankind. It was Adam's. And Adam was not tempted as Eve. He simply ate, knowing full well what he was doing. (1 Tim. 2:14)

satan is a spirit being. Did he have sin in his spirit prior to his fall? No. God knew he was a murderer from the beginning, but he was not yet a sinner till his act of rebellion.

Just because Adam and Eve were made of dust; made of flesh; did not place sin in their flesh. As I have said, you are saying God must have placed sin in their flesh, for God is their Creator. And I don't think you believe that. But that is what you are saying.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[LightofTruth]

I did answer. No, Eve's perception of the fruit was based upon the deception satan gave She had no lust in her heart or flesh at that time.

satan did tell Eve that the fruit would make one wise. (Gen. 3:5) God never told her or Adam that. She had no sin in herself until she ate. Just like Adam.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Are you saying that Adam and Eve's flesh changed after they ate?

The Scripture talks about man's flesh as being sinful. If Adam's flesh was not sinful flesh before he ate then his flesh went from being not sinful to sinful. That means his flesh changed. However, the Scripture never teaches anything like that. In fact. Paul says, with reference to Adam, that there is "one kind of flesh of man".

What the Scripture does say as the result of their eating, is that their eyes were opened to know good and evil. They now knew what they had done was evil (wrong) and that the gods (angels) were good (right).

If Eve's flesh was not sinful then she would not have desired something that was sinful. But the fact is, she did desire something sinful. That shows that her flesh was sinful flesh.

The wages of sin is death and death is the last enemy to be destroyed. Therefore, when death is destroyed, so is sin destroyed. And since sin begins in the lust of the flesh, the flesh must need to be changed in order for death to be destroyed. That's why Paul teaches that we must be changed and made immortal spiritual bodies so that death can be conquered. The spiritual, immortal body, therefore has no lust which would lead to sin and therefore cause death.

 

[LightofTruth]

If the wages of sin is death, how do we account for the idea that God's angels in heaven have sinned. Well, first off, Jesus says that in the resurrection, the faithful in Christ are to be as the angels of God and that they never die. That means that the angels of God never sin or else the wages of it would be death.

Therefore, the sons of God in Genesis 6 refer not to God's angels in heaven but to mortal men in the flesh who went lusting after the daughters of men of whom the sons of God ought not mingle because it would lead them to worship the gods of men.

And the idea that Satan is a fallen angel of God who sinned is also false because the angels of God never die and the wages of sin is death. Therefore, the devil and Satan of Scripture refers to either mortal men or a man specifically as in Revelation.

Now, since it is lust of the mortal flesh where sin begins, that lust is personified by both Paul and Jesus because it dwells within man and has caused his death.The lust of the flesh has been charged with bringing death into the world. And death comes in many forms. There are many ways in which man dies. He dies from illness, so that has been charged against the lust of flesh also.

When Jesus had come to destroy the works of the devil, he went about healing all those who were oppressed of the devil. He was therefore healing all those of whom are the victims of what is charged against the devil/flesh....death and the many forms it comes with.