Religious Borrowing and then Theft

[dianaiad]

It's one thing for a religion to borrow concepts from other faiths, that happens all the time; but what about those faiths that take directly from others and what looks like to many, just a dress up game? I do believe most such people are sincere, but what do religions get out of this? Messianic Jews who are just Christians wearing tallitot wrong and calling Vicars 'Rabbi'. What's the problem with just being whatever your religion is? If there's this need for something else, what does that say about your faith? Again, I have no issue with people taking things that make sense or for rational reasons; I wear long Islamic style dresses for modesty's sake since I find them the most comfortable and I don't think Muslims are taking an issue with it, but I have no desire to make myself Muslim and start using prayer rugs and whatnot.

It's mostly Christians trying to be Jews, what's up with that?

I don't know about every one of those, but "Jew" is more than the religion. Being Jewish is a...culture and a people. One is born a Jew if one's mother is, no matter what one's beliefs are. I think that many Messianic Jews are simply acknowledging that; they want to be a part of that culture and people, with the Messiah already come.

That is their belief and I see nothing wrong with it. I especially see nothing wrong with wanting to be a part of a group that has been around, and culturally strong, for thousands of years. Very few, if any, other human group, has done that. I am not Jewish in any way, but if I had Jewish ancestry, I would want to be a part of that culture and group.

But I wouldn't change my own religious beliefs to do so.

Religious beliefs are personal, and it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks, does it?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It's one thing for a religion to borrow concepts from other faiths, that happens all the time; but what about those faiths that take directly from others and what looks like to many, just a dress up game? I do believe most such people are sincere, but what do religions get out of this? Messianic Jews who are just Christians wearing tallitot wrong and calling Vicars 'Rabbi'. What's the problem with just being whatever your religion is? If there's this need for something else, what does that say about your faith? Again, I have no issue with people taking things that make sense or for rational reasons; I wear long Islamic style dresses for modesty's sake since I find them the most comfortable and I don't think Muslims are taking an issue with it, but I have no desire to make myself Muslim and start using prayer rugs and whatnot.

It's mostly Christians trying to be Jews, what's up with that?

The Jewish Christians are Jews. But the Gentile Christians are not. There is a certain theology within Christianity that believes the Gentile Christians do become the people of God now, or the Jews now. That they become the people of God, yes. That they become Jews, no.

Christianity is Jewish in it's origin. Jesus was and is a Jew. He didn't come first to start a new religion. He came to fulfill that which was the Jews religion. He came to fulfill the promises given to Israel through Abraham. So there was no borrowing from Judaism on His part. He was Jewish through and through. Believed and obeyed the Law through and through.

The problem was, He claimed to be their promised Messiah. (Luke 4:18-21) Promised in the Old Testament. Their King. The King is coming to establish that Kingdom promised to Israel. (Matt. 3:2, 4:17,6:10,10:5-7) The Kingdom was going to have a new set of laws governing it that were even more strict then the Mosaic Law. This is found in the Sermon on the Mount. (Matt. 5-7). All is Jewish. All done in accordance with the Old Testament.

But Israel as a nation rejected Him. They blasphemed the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 12:24-30) He therefore turned away from them. The offer of the Kingdom was taken away. (Matt. 13:10-11) The Kingdom takes on a mystery form. (Matt. 13:11) Christ now is headed to the Cross. After which, He will begin building His Church, as He promised in (Matt. 16:18).

The New Testament is tied to the Old Testament. Israel and the Church have the same Saviour, but He is in relation different to each. With Israel He is a King. With the Church He is the Body and Husband.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[shunyadragon]

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." This excludes Judaism but puts it into the base.

Still remains a selective reference to justify your individual worldview.

From a more universal perspective this view is very egocentric, and such quote ti self-ingratiate one in a sense of unfortunate superiority, which with time when used selectively generated violence against other religions,

 

[Terry Sampson]

What ?

 

[shunyadragon]

Man what are you talking about.

Christianity derived from israelite[judaic type of religious belief, that uses some of the texts, that judaism, a religion, uses, these are parallel religions, that share rexts.

This, of course, a claim that Judaism would emphatically reject.

Nonetheless, it is factual that Christianity radically changes the interpretation of the Hebrew text very different from Judaism to justify a Christian interpretation. Both Judaism and Christianity use adaptive interpretive, edited, and redacted versions of Genesis mythology from Sumerian, Babylonian, Canaanite, and Ugarit texts to form the foundation of their beliefs, Considering the reality of the evolution of religions throughout the millennia of all cultures I would not consider it theft, but yes 'borrowing' from older religions, texts, and beliefs that form the foundation of their beliefs, This true of both Judaism and Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Nonetheless, it is factual that Christianity radically changes the interpretation of the Hebrew text very different from Judaism to justify a Christian interpretation. Both Judaism and Christianity use adaptive interpretive, edited, and redacted versions of Genesis mythology from Sumerian, Babylonian. Canaanite, and Ugarit texts to form the foundation of their beliefs

Jewish Bible canonization, council of Jamnia.

'Christian Bible', New Testament, and variation, ie difference in how the Old Testament (jewish Tanakh, is interpreted, understood. Theological differences,.


Differences occur before new testament. Your statements concerning christian interpretation , religious beliefs, are basically meaningless.

 

[Rival]

I don't know about every one of those, but "Jew" is more than the religion. Being Jewish is a...culture and a people. One is born a Jew if one's mother is, no matter what one's beliefs are. I think that many Messianic Jews are simply acknowledging that; they want to be a part of that culture and people, with the Messiah already come.

That is their belief and I see nothing wrong with it. I especially see nothing wrong with wanting to be a part of a group that has been around, and culturally strong, for thousands of years. Very few, if any, other human group, has done that. I am not Jewish in any way, but if I had Jewish ancestry, I would want to be a part of that culture and group.

But I wouldn't change my own religious beliefs to do so.

Religious beliefs are personal, and it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks, does it?

It seems needlessly deceptive. Mostly it is used as a veneer to lure orthodox Jews into Christianity and I have an issue with that. It's hijacking another religion, imo, and using it as a cover to decieve people. If you're a Jew who believes in Jesus you've already abandoned your ancestral faith anyway, there's no point pretending you or your views are anything like religiously Jewish.

 

[leov]

Still remains a selective reference to justify your individual worldview.

From a more universal perspective this view is very egocentric, and such quote ti self-ingratiate one in a sense of unfortunate superiority, which with time when used selectively generated violence against other religions,

Well, try to interpret it differently. Explanation is: your Old Book says do not murder but I say you don't even get angry....

 

[shunyadragon]

The Jewish Christians are Jews. But the Gentile Christians are not. There is a certain theology within Christianity that believes the Gentile Christians do become the people of God now, or the Jews now. That they become the people of God, yes. That they become Jews, no.

Christianity is Jewish in it's origin. Jesus was and is a Jew. He didn't come first to start a new religion. He came to fulfill that which was the Jews religion. He came to fulfill the promises given to Israel through Abraham. So there was no borrowing from Judaism on His part. He was Jewish through and through. Believed and obeyed the Law through and through.

The problem was, He claimed to be their promised Messiah. (Luke 4:18-21) Promised in the Old Testament. Their King. The King is coming to establish that Kingdom promised to Israel. (Matt. 3:2, 4:17,6:10,10:5-7) The Kingdom was going to have a new set of laws governing it that were even more strict then the Mosaic Law. This is found in the Sermon on the Mount. (Matt. 5-7). All is Jewish. All done in accordance with the Old Testament.

But Israel as a nation rejected Him. They blasphemed the Holy Spirit. (Matt. 12:24-30) He therefore turned away from them. The offer of the Kingdom was taken away. (Matt. 13:10-11) The Kingdom takes on a mystery form. (Matt. 13:11) Christ now is headed to the Cross. After which, He will begin building His Church, as He promised in (Matt. 16:18).

The New Testament is tied to the Old Testament. Israel and the Church have the same Saviour, but He is in relation different to each. With Israel He is a King. With the Church He is the Body and Husband.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Of course Jesus was a Jew, but Christianity bears no resemblance to Judaism today.

 

[Rival]

I don't see how you can "borrow" ideas. How do you give them back when you are finished with them?

It's a commonly used term; I was mostly using it to illustrate my point.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, try to interpret it differently. Explanation is: your Old Book says do not murder but I say you don't even get angry....

Virtually all religions of the world say Do not commit wrongful death, so what?!?!?!? This is a side track and not the subject of the thread.

 

[Rival]

Are Jews a race, a people, or a religion ? If a people, is Judaism , the religion, by association, part of being a Jew ?

If so, then aren´t Messianic Jews different from Christians ? The Messiah was promised to the Jews. Christ was the Messiah. Then Messianic Jews seems perfectly appropriate.

It Gentiles call themselves Messianic Jews , that is absurd.

If a Jewish by birth person has dropped his religion and become a Christian, he's no business play-pretending to be an orthodox Jew. If he wanted that before he could have had it in spades, with real orthodox Judaism. He should just be honest with himself.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's a commonly used term; I was mostly using it to illustrate my point.

The point your are making is universal with all religions and their scriptures including Judaism.

 

[leov]

Virtually all religions of the world say Do not commit wrongful death, so what?!?!?!? This is a side track and not the subject of the thread.

Because most religions come from the same source. Is this what Bahai say?

 

[Rival]

The point your are making is universal with all religions and their scriptures including Judaism.

I was mostly referring to those Christians who wear tallit, tefillin, go to a 'synagogue' and have a torah scroll (that they can't read) and whatnot, when really they are just Christians. It's deceptive and dishonest.

 

[shunyadragon]

If a Jewish by birth person has dropped his religion and become a Christian, he's no business play-pretending to be an orthodox Jew. If he wanted that before he could have had it in spades, with real orthodox Judaism. He should just be honest with himself.

I belief that the term Jew can refer to an ethnic origin, and not necessarily a believer Orthodox or non-Orthodox. For example Einstein was definitely not a believing Jew, but of course, he was ethnically Jewish..

 

[Rival]

I belief that the term Jew can refer to an ethnic origin, and not necessarily a believer Orthodox or non-Orthodox. For example Einstein was definitely not a believing Jew, but of course, he was ethnically Jewish..

Yes it can, but this is not what I am discussing.

 

[shunyadragon]

Because most religions come from the same source. Is this what Bahai say?

Yes, but also reflect the culture and human view of the time of their scripture and origin. and acknowledges the natural evolving nature of the religions of the world, and not the static belief system in different cultures in time and place.

The belief that any one religion of the ancient past represents the 'True' religion is an unresolvable contradictory paradox.

 

[leov]

If a Jewish by birth person has dropped his religion and become a Christian, he's no business play-pretending to be an orthodox Jew. If he wanted that before he could have had it in spades, with real orthodox Judaism. He should just be honest with himself.

Christianity turned to worshiping of Physical Jesus and that is why it is not acceptable in principle, but that is not what it teaches.

 

[Rival]

Christianity turned to worshiping of Physical Jesus and that is why it is not acceptable in principle, but that is not what it teaches.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.