Is atheism a belief?

[PureX]

Oh. In that case, I must say that you are commiting a serious (and deeply disrespectful) mistake in failing to acknowledge the inherent assymetry between the support needs of theistic and atheistic claims.

I've never met an atheists that said they needed to be an atheist. Or many theists, either, for that matter. Yet I think personal need is the driving factor for both camps. There is no real asymmetry. Everyone is choosing their positions based on their personal experiences and how they've come to understand them, and on their respective personal needs. It's not really any more or lass logical to be an atheist than to be a theist. It's just that atheists tend to need to hold their pretense of "objective evidence" in very high regard, while theists do that with their religion (myth, tradition, practice and dictum, etc.).

 

[QuestioningMind]

Atheism could be defined as:

A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Another way of phrasing it could be one who believes there is no God or gods.

I’m good with either definition but not everyone is. Maybe I shouldn’t be either.

What is the best definition of atheism and why can it be so difficult to define?

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any god or gods. Lacking a belief that something definitely does exist is not the same as claiming that the something definitely does not exist.

For example, lets say we have two people Man A and Man B who both enter a room that neither has ever been in before. In the middle of this room on a table is a large jar filled to capacity with various sized marbles. Man A looks at the jar and then states: "I believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in that jar, no more and no less." He then turns to Man B and asked: "Do you also believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in this jar, no more and no less?"

If Man B looks at the jar and thinks, there isn't sufficient evidence for me to believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in that jar then states: "No, I do not believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in that jar, no more and no less."

Now, did Man B just claim that it is impossible for there to be 448 marbles in the jar? Obviously not. He isn't stating that it's impossible for there to be that number of marbles in the jar, only that he doesn't have sufficient reason to believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in the jar.

So when Man A says to Man B: I believe that there is definitely a creator god being," then asks, "Do you also definitely believe that there is a creator god being?" And Man B responds, "No, I do not definitely believe that there is a creator god being," he is ALSO not claiming that it's IMPOSSIBLE for a creator god being to exists, he is ONLY stating there there isn't sufficient evidence for him to conclude that definitely IS a creator god being.

 

[columbus]

A Christian may attend church, have beliefs and practices in regards an historical Jesus but see God and other supernatural claims as being largely symbolic.

Christian atheism - Wikipedia

I know atheist Christians.

I am so old I remember when Yahoo clubs were a top social media platform.

I belonged to one called "Atheists for Jesus".

Like many of the other members, I found the meta-messages of the Gospels inspiring and the community well worth supporting. Didn't change the fact that I find religion vastly more likely to be fiction than objective truth, and god a character concept commonly found in that sort of fiction.
Tom

 

[j1i]

I can shoot you down right here. At no time in my entire life was I ever a theist. I never believed, never faithfully practiced under the heading of any religion. All notions of gods have always seemed too outrageous to be believed to me. Always.

Therefore your attempt to paint atheism as some sort of departure from religious/believer's "routine" is bogus. And because I never experienced what it was like to be a believer, there never could have even been a point at which I "lusted" after another lifestyle. That's quite an idiotic idea, by the way. I don't think any former-believer turned atheist that I have ever encountered would describe their departure from theism as some form of "lust." It's ridiculous, and is almost certainly you just choosing some word with negative connotations to try and paint atheism with your agenda.

fake shoot to me as all times

Every human being born is born on instinct

Instinct that the old fathers knew God

I am talking about a whole human chain
I hope you expand your mind and understand clearly the way

Human evolution is not in day and night but in a wide range of experiences

The idea of atheism is also a poisonous idea held by generation after generation

I mean, do you want to tell me that atheism was born of individual ideas or influenced by the ideas of others?

My question to you clearly
Do you want to say that everyone invents atheism from himself after life experiences
Or is it just a choice because it is influenced by the ideas of others

I mean that every atheist now did not invent atheism himself
It is the outcome affected

Atheism is a thought that attracts those who lie down and have no desire for work, diligence and sincerity

Just the slippery way to sleep

regard
shooting star
Imgur

 

[j1i]

Its useful to understand the different composition of religious adherents in a country such as the UAE (? Your country) and a Western country such as New Zealand (my country).

Religion in the United Arab Emirates (2005 census)

Islam (72%)
Christianity (12.6%)
Hinduism (6.6%)
Buddhism (2%)
Other religions (2.8%)
No religion (4%)

Religion in the United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia


Major religions in New Zealand, 2013 Census

Catholicism (12.61%)
Anglicanism (11.79%)
Presbyterianism (8.47%)
Other Christianity (15.14%)
Hinduism (2.11%)
Buddhism (1.50%)
Islam (1.18%)
Other religions (1.53%)
Undeclared (4.44%)
No religion (41.92%)

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

We have 10 x the number no religion compared to the UAE and the UAE has 60 x the number of Muslims compared to NZ.

Your response reflects a cultural perspective that’s quite different from Westerners. Just something to think about.



The question of polytheism and the Christian view of God isn’t the topic of this thread but an important discussion to have elsewhere.



As above, a response that reflects living in a predominantly Muslim country.

Thanks for your response

I wanted to give the difference in meaning between atheism and polytheism
Only an example was developed (jesus)
It is my generous participation to give my thoughts no more
Don't thank me for that, my friend Haha

The UAE has the largest concentration of different nationalities than New Zealand
We have 202 different nationalities residing in the UAE for its strategic location

The UAE strongly supports America in its trade war and in spreading knowledge, knowledge and humanitarian relief

UAE ranked world’s top aid donor for third consecutive year
UAE ranked world’s top aid donor for third consecutive year

A Muslim majority does not mean that we are an undeveloped society
We are progressing more than New Zealand in human terms
We love Christians even if you see how we care for our Christian community more than Muslims too
Haha Believe?

 

[ecco]

Atheism is the presumption that no gods exist unless and until proven otherwise. And it IS A BELIEF because the atheist believes that he is and would be capable of recognizing the evidence of the existence of a god, if one existed. This belief is what defines atheism as something different from agnosticism.

That's a lot of self-serving nonsense. It's also untrue. You are not an atheist. If you want to post what you think atheists believe, then you need to quote atheists. Since you don't/can't we can just take your comments as unsupportable male bovine feces.

 

[ecco]

I think atheism is an abnormal lust that is explained in my psychology
It is a point of desire that comes at a time when a person feels bored of his lifestyle and routine
He wants to play other roles, other actions, and another truth
Because of the absence of the excitement element in life that causes them depression

Here we have yet another theist who needs to pretend he understands atheists.

I became an atheist around age ten. I doubt that happened because ...

• I reached a point of desire that came from feeling feels bored of my lifestyle and routine
• I wanted to play other roles, other actions, and another truth
• I had an absence of the excitement element in life that causes depression

If you really wanted to know, you could have just asked. Nope. That wouldn't fit your agenda.

 

[PureX]

If you want to post what you think atheists believe, then you need to quote atheists.

They just lie about it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am so old I remember when Yahoo clubs were a top social media platform.

I belonged to one called "Atheists for Jesus".

Like many of the other members, I found the meta-messages of the Gospels inspiring and the community well worth supporting. Didn't change the fact that I find religion vastly more likely to be fiction than objective truth, and god a character concept commonly found in that sort of fiction.
Tom

Yeah, there you go. There will be millions who see it as you do. Although I have a much more theistic view of who Jesus was and the nature of the Gospels, there has to be room for diversity of beliefs. I’m aware that some churches actively embrace people with atheistic theologies.

 

[ecco]

Yep. There are 11% atheists in the United States who said that they believe in the existence of a God. I was only trying to clarify if its statistics that was meant by that statement.

Source?

 

[ecco]

That's a lot of self-serving nonsense. It's also untrue. You are not an atheist. If you want to post what you think atheists believe, then you need to quote atheists. Since you don't/can't we can just take your comments as unsupportable male bovine feces.

They just lie about it.

That's completely unresponsive and is another example of your need to be evasive. You made a nonsensical assertion for which you have no support. When I called you on it, you ducked and dodged by posting another unsupported assertion.

Does your deceptiveness stem from your Taoist teachings, your Christian teachings, or does it just come naturally?







Also...see post #227 and tell me I'm lying and then support your assertion.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a lot of self-serving nonsense. It's also untrue.

So, are you saying that you might not be capable of recognizing the evidence of the existence of a god, if one existed?

 

[ecco]

Just for you my rational forum friend...

"The problem that any rational thinker needs to tackle, though, is that the science increasingly shows that atheists are no more rational than theists. Indeed, atheists are just as susceptible as the next person to “group-think” and other non-rational forms of cognition."
Why atheists are not as rational as some like to think - Religion News Service

See, one of the problems with dealing with rational atheists is that we are, more often than not, willing to check things out. The first eye-brow-raiser was your source...

Religion News Service​

Now that, in and of itself does not disqualify the article. But if one reads the article one finds it is an opinion piece. It cites no research. It presents no research. It is one person's opinion. It makes one reference which, in your blindness to prove a point, you reference: ...though, is that the science increasingly shows...

But that's just a link to another web site which requires a subscription. In other words, nothing more than Lois Lee's opinion and your link to it.

That's really lame. But it's par for the course and typical of theist's failed tactics. When ya got nutttin, pretend and hope nobody checks up on ya.


Furthermore, according to your linked article, "Lois Lee is a research fellow in the Department of Religious Studies at the University of Kent". One shouldn't accept that Lois is unbiased, should one?

 

[ecco]

Grow some balls, stand on a position, and defend it.

You post a lot. Most of your posts are criticisms of other people's positions. I see very little where you justify why you are a...

Philosophical Taoist/Christian​

...whatever that's supposed to mean. So, to quote the...

Philosophical Taoist/Christian​

...grow some balls, show your position, and defend it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Therefore, everything is a belief. Including my disbelief of Mother Goose, which must be a belief, too.

And now what?

Ciao

- viole

That's right, even your disbelief in mother goose is a belief. However there may be native tribes in the Amazon who have never heard of mother goose so never thought about mother goose. In that case it would be reasonable to say that their disbelief in mother goose isn't a belief. Of course in most modern civilisations, adults have heard about religious claims as well as fairy stories.

So now what? It may or may not be totally meaningless to you whether atheism is a belief or it isn't but its not to me. Why? Becaue if we can't agree on the basics, its questionable as to whether or not we can have an intellectually honest and respectful conversation about the reality of God or gods.

 

[ecco]

Not all religious beliefs are blind or lacking in facts. The discourse around the historicity of religious founders considers evidence using established methods rather than take religious text at face value. In that sense many, though not all atheists consider Jesus existed as an historical person like Caeser or Socrates. I’ve never come across anyone whose seriously claimed the founder of my faith (Bahá’u’lláh) never existed. The evidence is overwhelmingly strong that He did. Whether or not these Religious Founders were Prophets of God is a different discussion. Using language such as ‘blind’ faith appears anti-theist and simply sets the scene for an adversarial theist vs atheist debate.

So Ballulah existed and wrote a whole bunch of stuff that Muslims didn't like. David Koresh existed and wrote a whole bunch of stuff that Christians didn't like. You believe Ballulh when he says he is a messenger of god. You don't believe Koresh when he says he is a messenger of god.

Blind Faith.

 

[ecco]

Is there really a big difference between the two versions you wrote in your OP?
Why do you want "a much clearer grasp of some of those differences"?
Why do you think they "are so important, particularly to those who identify as atheist"?

I have my reasons.

Wow. You start a thread, and when questioned about it, you shut down the conversations with: I have my reasons.

Actually, based on your many posts, it's pretty clear that you really don't have any deep profound reasons. It's just one more example of you posting BS and then stuttering when confronted. It's really getting boring.

 

[Augustus]

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any god or gods. Lacking a belief that something definitely does exist is not the same as claiming that the something definitely does not exist.

Well believing something doesn't exist is not the same as claiming something doesn't exist either.

Many if not most of our beliefs we aren't certain of.

For example, lets say we have two people Man A and Man B who both enter a room that neither has ever been in before. In the middle of this room on a table is a large jar filled to capacity with various sized marbles. Man A looks at the jar and then states: "I believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in that jar, no more and no less." He then turns to Man B and asked: "Do you also believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in this jar, no more and no less?"

If Man B looks at the jar and thinks, there isn't sufficient evidence for me to believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in that jar then states: "No, I do not believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in that jar, no more and no less."

Now, did Man B just claim that it is impossible for there to be 448 marbles in the jar? Obviously not. He isn't stating that it's impossible for there to be that number of marbles in the jar, only that he doesn't have sufficient reason to believe that there are exactly 448 marbles in the jar.

If it were me I'd believe the weren't 448 marbles, as that's where the probabilities lie. Same with disbelief in gods.

Could be I'm wrong on both of these issues, but that ok. It's just belief, not a claim of objective certainty.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm familiar with Christian atheism. One of the things I checked out to see if it would work for me was non-theist Quakerism.

I'm pleased to hear you are familiar with Christian atheism and have even considered whether or not attending some christian communities such as the Quakers would be compatibale with your atheism. It demonstrates a willingness to investigate new ideas both in theory and in practice.

I'm not quite sure what your issue is with:

Still, I feel like you touched on three different things that need to be broken out, because they aren't the same:

- practicing a non-theistic version of a religion that's typically theistic.
- being a closeted (or coerced) atheist in a theistic church.
- purposely celebrating the cultural aspects of a Christian tradition while rejecting its religious aspects (e.g. what many "cultural Catholics" do).

All of them can result in an atheist being in church, but only one of them is really Christian atheism.

An atheistic Christian can view practically every aspect of Christian tradition, history and theology through an atheist lens. That extends from being baptised, taking communion, listening to a sermon and singing hymns.

An atheist Christian can either be open or 'in the closet' or somewhere in between. Some churches will not tolerate an atheistic approach to Christianity whereas other will. So there is a journey of comign out, very much like someone who dentifies as gay.

On approach is certaining picking and choosing what aspects of Christian tradition to follow though that can have practical difficulties.

They are all part of the journey to becoming a fully realised atheist Christian are they not?

 

[ecco]

Its quite common for someone to attend church and observe certain practices such as communion, celebrate Easter and Christmas but have no belief in God.

Source?