Funny - I never pegged you for an ignostic.
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Atheists: If God existed…
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
PureX
Veteran Member
No one would know that, including you. And there is no way you could. Not now, and not then. What happens beyond your cognitive reach remains beyond your cognitive reach. And blindly insisting that you do know doesn't transcend that limitation, ... any more than blindly proclaiming to know that God(s) exists means that God(s) must exists.
Logic, reason, and common sense are all speculative tools. They do not magically transcend the realm of speculation into the realm of certainty, as you seem be insisting they must.
Milton Platt
Well-Known Member
Then it is irrational to believe in something if you do not even know what it is you are believing in. You cannot believe in a thing you have no knowledge of.
So you are actually claiming that this video could be wrong? And if you claim it's wrong, can you provide a video of your own showing your alternative scenario?
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
I disagree with you as well. First of all, evidence is subjective. Whether or not there is evidence of God depends on the definition of evidence that we are using. Secondly, evidence never becomes "proof" just by believing in it strongly. I can believe as strongly as I want in something, and that does not transform so-called "evidence" into proof. I'm afraid you're just as confused as the atheist you quoted.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is not going to happen. We need religion, and Baha’u’llah explained why:
“The second word We have recorded on the second leaf of Paradise is the following: “The Pen of the Divine Expounder exhorteth, at this moment, the manifestations of authority and the sources of power, namely the kings and rulers of the earth—may God assist them—and enjoineth them to uphold the cause of religion, and to cleave unto it. Religion is, verily, the chief instrument for the establishment of order in the world, and of tranquillity amongst its peoples. The weakening of the pillars of religion hath strengthened the foolish, and emboldened them, and made them more arrogant. Verily I say: The greater the decline of religion, the more grievous the waywardness of the ungodly. This cannot but lead in the end to chaos and confusion. Hear Me, O men of insight, and be warned, ye who are endued with discernment!” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 28
Mind you, that was written circa 1870, and now that the pillars of religion have weakened we are seeing the chaos and confusion get worse day by day...
The way for us to live in peace and harmony is for the older religions to realize that their religions do not have what humanity needs in this new age, join the Baha’is and help us build the Kingdom of God on Earth. Eventually there will be only one religion, because it was ordained by God.
“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91
I do not know if the “one common Faith” will be called, it won’t necessarily be the Baha’i Faith, because by then another new religion might have been revealed by another Messenger of God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, we can know what was revealed from God’s Mind to the Mind of Muhammad.
Muhammad was the last Prophet in the Adamic Cycle of religion which began with Adam, also called the Prophetic Cycle, and that is why He was called the Seal of the Prophets. But that does not mean that Muhammad was the Last Prophet who will ever come to earth.
Unsealing the “Seal of the Prophets”
Every religion except the Baha’i Faith believes that their Prophet is the Best and Last Prophet, but they were all wrong. God’s hands are not tied. Prophets, also referred to as Messengers or Manifestations of God have been sent by God to Earth since the dawn of human history and they will continue to come.
“Can one of sane mind ever seriously imagine that, in view of certain words the meaning of which he cannot comprehend, the portal of God’s infinite guidance can ever be closed in the face of men? Can he ever conceive for these Divine Luminaries, these resplendent Lights either a beginning or an end? What outpouring flood can compare with the stream of His all-embracing grace, and what blessing can excel the evidences of so great and pervasive a mercy? There can be no doubt whatever that if for one moment the tide of His mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. For this reason, from the beginning that hath no beginning the portals of Divine mercy have been flung open to the face of all created things, and the clouds of Truth will continue to the end that hath no end to rain on the soil of human capacity, reality and personality their favors and bounties. Such hath 69 been God’s method continued from everlasting to everlasting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 68-69
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You are right, belief is based on evidence. Blind faith is belief without evidence but all faith is not blind. Faith that is based upon good evidence is reason-based faith, not blind faith.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is not proof of anything. It is the fallacy of hasty generalization to say that just because other religions make claims that might not be true, my religion makes claims that are false. Moreover, the Baha’i Faith recognizes all the major religions of the past as legitimate; they are just not pertinent to this age in history.
By reading this book: Thief in the Night by William Sears
I was not looking for anything at all. I had no interest in religion or God. It is true however that the spiritual and social teachings of the Baha’i Faith resonated with me, and that is the primary reason I became a Baha’i, I saw truth in it. At that time, and up till about six years ago, I had no interest in God. I believed that God existed but it had no real significance to my life.
I think my evidence sets my religion apart from theirs for many reason, not only the evidence for Bahaullah being a Manifestation of God (Messenger) but the underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith Progressive Revelation, sets it apart from all the other religions. It just makes sense to me that not only one religion is the truth from God but that only one religion is pertinent to every age in history.
It is not impossible for me to be wrong, but until someone produces some evidence that refutes my religion I see no reason to admit I am wrong about it. It does not mean I have a closed mind just because I have certitude about my religion, as there are many other beliefs and truths that can be accommodated by Baha’i beliefs, and are congruent with them, given Reality is One.
“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.
For example, I love the teachings of Christianity, even though I do not believe in the Church doctrines such as original sin, heaven and hell as literal places we go after we die, or the return of Jesus. I listen to Christian music 24/7 because it is inspiring, and I am able to filter out what I do not believe. I also really like Buddhism and its teachings, many of which are similar to Baha’i teachings. I always try to look for similarities, not differences, even with atheism. As a Baha’i, I believe we are all one people, all loved by the same God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is nothing stopping you from saying you know I am wrong, but if you are asserting that you would need to prove it. Otherwise you can just have an opinion that you think I am wrong.
No, I did not start this thread asking for proof. I asked:
If God existed, would God provide proof of His existence? If you answer yes, please explain why you think that God would provide proof of His existence.
Is it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence? If you think it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence, why do you think God would choose not to provide proof of His existence?
I am not talking about evidence, I am talking about absolute proof, in which case God would be established as a fact, like a scientific fact everyone would agree upon.
Is it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence? If you think it possible that God exists and has chosen not to provide proof of His existence, why do you think God would choose not to provide proof of His existence?
I am not talking about evidence, I am talking about absolute proof, in which case God would be established as a fact, like a scientific fact everyone would agree upon.
Hardly anyone actually answer my specific questions.
There is nothing blind about my faith because I went into it eyes wide open, since I read ever book I could lay my hands on that had been published back then, long before there was an internet. Since then I have done a lot more research, and the ore research do on the Baha’i Faith the more my belief is confirmed... Hardly blind faith.
I do know what I know for certain, but HOW I know it is not something atheists understand.
I appreciate your point of view, but it is not indistinguishable once one distinguishes it.... It did not take long for some of us to know it came from a real Messenger of God.But it is all in how we perceive what we read, and that will be different for everyone, even people who are Baha’is.
That’s fine by me. I was just pointing it out.
Because Baha’u’llah wrote that in many of His Tablets. Below is my favorite passage on the subject because it says that even the Prophets and Messengers cannot apprehend the Essence of God, so how much less could an ordinary human apprehend it?
“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63
I think it is pretty cool actually, to know there is a God we can know something about but whose Essence is hidden. I do not NEED to know the Essence of God. If humans needed to know it God would have revealed it, since God reveals what we need to know. Also, God reveals only what we are able to comprehend, and since we could never comprehend the Essence of God there would be no reason for God to reveal it.
No, because faith can become knowledge once we have proven a belief to ourselves. It is not factual knowledge, it is acquired knowledge.
knowledge;
1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=knowledge+means
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Messengers of God are the only real evidence there is for a God.
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.[1] The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning - Wikipedia
No, it is not circular because I did not begin with what I wanted to end with. In other words, I did not say that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger because Baha’u’llah said He was a Messenger.
The evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger is not that Baha’u’llah said He was a Messenger because that would be circular reasoning.
The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is everything that surrounds the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, including who He was as a Person (His character); His mission on earth; the history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward; the scriptures that He wrote; what His appointed Interpreters wrote; what others have written about the Baha’i Faith; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, as well as prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that He established (followers) all over the world and what they have done and are doing now.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Noun. ignosticism (uncountable) The philosophical position that existence of God is meaningless, because the term "god" has no unambiguous definition. Ignosticism requires a good, non-controversial definition of god before arguing on its existence.
ignosticism - Wiktionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ignosticism
I am not ignostic, as per the definition above.
Here is the Baha’i view of God.
God in the Bahá'í Faith
The Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation. The purpose of creation is for the created to have the capacity to know and love its creator.[4] God communicates his will and purpose to humanity through intermediaries, known as Manifestations of God, who are the prophets and messengers that have founded religions from prehistoric times up to the present day.[5]
Personal God
While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:
What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I did not say I have no knowledge of God. I said God cannot be defined, which means God is above and beyond definition. We can know some Attributes of God that describe God but we can never know God’s Essence (intrinsic nature).
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that whether or not there is evidence of God depends on the definition of evidence that we are using, what we mean by evidence.
I disagree that evidence can never come proof just by believing it strongly. No, it never becomes proof in the sense of being factual, but it can become proof to us in the sense that we have knowledge of it.
There is more than one kind of knowledge:
knowledge;
1. facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
2. awareness or familiarity gained by experience of a fact or situation.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=knowledge+means
Bird123
Well-Known Member
You are right. When they go to God, they see where they are and where they need to be. People will judge themselves. Yes, the only answer is to learn the lessons. It will take many lifetimes in physical bodies within time based causal universes before Understanding is reached. There has never been a time limit on learning.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Does a murderer require justice or an education? Yes, society will protect themselves. On the other hand, the problem will never go away until the problem is solved. Is anyone working on the problem, it's causes, and cure OR is payback all that everyone wants?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Love must be tempered by justice. There is no reason to think heinous murderers get off scot free. That would not be justice.
God loves everyone but all men are not equal in the sight of God, nor is any man equal to God.
“Let no one imagine that by Our assertion that all created things are the signs of the revelation of God is meant that—God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God. Nor doth it imply that the Divine Being—magnified be His name and exalted be His glory—is, under any circumstances, comparable unto men, or can, in any way, be associated with His creatures. Such an error hath been committed by certain foolish ones who, after having ascended into the heavens of their idle fancies, have interpreted Divine Unity to mean that all created things are the signs of God, and that, consequently, there is no distinction whatsoever between them.” Gleanings, p. 187
People punish themselves by their own actions and they will judge themselves in the afterlife, but God might also judge them and punish them.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
What could create wrath in God? Wrath is created in mankind when mankind can not control. God has no control issues.
Brains win in the end. Forget payback. Determine the real causes then solve the problem.
Controlling the actions of others through pain which is what your justice is all about, can never be right simply because you are teaching others it is right to do. At the Higher Level there are much better ways.
When you hate even for your idea of justice, you will discover when it returns that the price for hate is always too high.
Remember, Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. In all your dealings with people, question yourself first. Are your actions really what is Best for the other? If your actions are Unconditional Love, you will change people and the world, while teaching them to Love Unconditionally rather than teaching them all the wrong lessons.
As for renters, there are people who are very good at this. Perhaps your adversity will push you in a direction to Learn more. Talk with landlords. If you ask enough people, you will find someone who has the same problem. They might carry your answers.
Brains win. Do not get angry ,hateful or vengeful. Get Smart. Solve the problem.
Allow Reason to Lead rather than all those feelings of judging and hating.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God does have wrath when it is warranted. This we know because it is revealed in various scriptures. Some humans deserve the wrath of God. It is not our job to judge other people, only God can judge.
What is best for the others is not always unconditional love, because evil people take that as weakness and use it to their advantage, and then they just continue in their evil ways. That is not doing them any favors.
No, we should not be angry hateful or vengeful. We should try to live in peace and solve our problems.
Romans 12:17-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Havea]">[a] regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
Bird123
Well-Known Member
Beliefs merely point a direction by which one can choose to investigate in order to Discover what is true.
You still seem to want everything served up on a silver platter by which you can make your decision whether to believe or not.
Seems you do not want to Discover anything. Seems you just want to disclaim the beliefs of others. This is a far cry from wanting to Discover the Real Truth.
You have made your choice. On the other hand, your path seems to be useless energy spent.
I realize why you do this. It will really do you no good. Further, look within and discover yourself. Why is there a need to do this?
Finally, I think religion has corrupted your view. I am not wanting you to believe anything. On the other hand, I can point the direction by which you can Discover the Truth for yourself.
Free choice is crucial. I am happy with yours.