Sex before marriage?????

[stvdv]

And the opinions and laws of the Biblical God are important to the well being of creation.

You forget to mention here that "this is your opinion"
Strange enough you do declare "that Biblical God has opinions"
At least "Biblical God" seems to be humble, having an opinion

 

[stvdv]

Been here before

The Historical Iesus is guesswork
New Evidence that Demands a Verdict is hypothesis
Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics? Why a need to apologise?
The Case for Christ, confirmation bias
The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, confirmation bias

Real evidence
View attachment 31234
The gravestone of the father of jesus... Why would a god need a gravestone?

Recommended reading
Jesus the terrorist by peter cresswell.
Also
The Censored Messiah by the same author

The Jesus Hoax by David Skrbina PhD

Yes, I agree there is a lot of guesswork about the "Historical Jesus"
So I am a bit confused that you have a picture of the gravestone of the Father of Jesus?

 

[arthra]

So whats you belief set on sex before marriage and also how you date? By dating I mean, is dating around ok? Do you select your child's spouse? Do you just date to marry only? If you don't have sex before marriage are you allowed to hold hands hug kiss that type of thing?

Baha'is do not endorse sexual relations outside marriage... As to dating and socializing that's up to the people involved. They are free to choose a prospective mate. Baha'i marriage requires the consent of the living parents of the prospective bride and groom.

Read more about Baha'i marriage at
Marriage, Bahá'í

 

[stvdv]

Confirmation bias is running strong today

Because i (or anyone) said so is not evidence

Because the bible says so is not evidence

Very good one. I just can't believe that people try to prove the Bible by using Bible verses. That makes no sense at all.
This looks like bootstrapping. Pull yourself up using your own boots. I never saw that happen

 

[1213]

Then I sure you can show some other reasons men avoid having sexual relations with women.

For example, there can be more important things to do, like spread the Gospel.

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, I agree there is a lot of guesswork about the "Historical Jesus"
So I am a bit confused that you have a picture of the gravestone of the Father of Jesus?

There is little doubt he existed as a person. Just not the person depicted in the bible.

Some stories depict him as a terrorist, and anarchist. Some have him as a zealot and member of the fourth philosophy and the sicarii assassin's

Hebrew scriptures tell us the father of Jesus was a roman soldier of greek decent named Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. His gravestone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany.

 

[ChristineM]

Very good one. I just can't believe that people try to prove the Bible by using Bible verses. That makes no sense at all.
This looks like bootstrapping. Pull yourself up using your own boots. I never saw that happen

Typical circular reasoning "the bible is.... Because the bible says so"

 

[stvdv]

There is little doubt he existed as a person. Just not the person depicted in the bible.

Some stories depict him as a terrorist, and anarchist. Some have him as a zealot and member of the fourth philosophy and the sicarii assassin's

Hebrew scriptures tell us the father of Jesus was a roman soldier of greek decent named Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. His gravestone was found in Bingerbrück, Germany.

Oooooooooooooooh. I thought you meant "Father of Jesus" picture ... God. Above makes a little more sense, coming from the ChristineM I "know"

 

[ecco]

Why don't you folks ever do your homework?

"The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas; "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict," by former skeptic Josh McDowell; "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler; "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel," and "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Dr, Gary Habermas.

You imply that we folks don't do our homework. I take that to mean you have.

Do any of those books show any writing from the time Jesus was alive? I have never heard of any except thoroughly falsified claims that the Gospels were first-hand accounts.



Well, rather than await your response, I went and looked at "The Historical Jesus," by scholar Dr. Gary Habermas; on Amazon.

Here is an excerpt from the Conclusion:

The disciples sincerely believed that Jesus rose from the dead and had appeared to them.
...
...
This argument has proven effective. For one thing it makes the conversation more interesting for the skeptics who probably thought we were going to say, “The Bible says it, I believe it.​

Problem #1. There is no contemporaneous evidence recording what the disciples said, believed or saw. A controversial preacher is crucified, buried, and returns to life. At that time no one writes a single word about it. So, no. The arument has not proven to be effective.

Problem #2. The condescending, self-serving comment about skeptics. No skeptic expects apologists to make that spurious argument.

Habermas is just preaching to the choir. He makes his living preaching and writing about Jesus' Ressurection. It isn't skeptics spending money on his books (except those that read them to counter his "arguments").

The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas and Michael Licona (Review)​

The core problem with the Resurrection
Now compare this story to the Resurrection of Jesus. Our earliest written accounts of Jesus’ Resurrection (1) were written only by Christian evangelists, (2) were compiled 20-70 years after the events they describe, (3) are so old they cannot be confirmed by physical evidence from the time, (4) come from a superstituous age of many similar mystery cults, (3) are internally contradictory, (4) and are contradictory between sources, too.

We have much better evidence than that for the angel Moroni’s revelation to Joseph Smith, the Hindu milk miracle of 1995, visitation by space aliens, the dancing sun at Fatima, and many other modern phenomena. And yet most Christians do not believe those were genuine events.

Why not? After all, the evidence is much better for these than for the ancient Resurrection of Jesus!​

 

[ecco]

This is why assumptions and generalizations are so often wrong. Let's review...

• My avatar is indeed Krishna.
• I am Hindu, but I am Italian-American. I embraced Hinduism as a religion and way of life. My name is a genuine Hindi male name but isn't my real name.
• I use Sanskrit phrases, Sanskrit being the liturgical language of Hinduism.
• The grandfather referred to is @Aupmanyav's grandfather. They are Indian.
• I thought the Vulcan response was pretty good as a tie-in to my example of the arranged marriage between Spock and T'Pring.

You are Italian/American and your grandmother was betrothed at age 7? I am aware of that practice in Italy. But at age 7??

My apologies about your Vulcan comment. I was not aware of that occurring.

As for why I'm not entirely opposed to arranged marriages: they bring couples together that may never have met otherwise, for a variety of reasons.

• Distance. They just may never have met without a little outside help
• One or both parties might be "socially awkward" and wouldn't take the initiative to look for a partner.
• Preliminary groundwork of the families knowing the likes and dislikes of the prospective partners.

I think there's a certain logic and benefit to it. It seems there's been a conflation of child-marriage and arranged marriages between families, and "selling" children into marriages. I can't think of any society where two children are actually married and set up a household, sex and all. That's something I don't hold with.

Oops! I just read Aupmanyav's post. It seems I've gotten posts from two different people completely conflated.

My humblest apologies to both.

 

[ecco]

Yeah, it was me and not Jai whose grandparents were married at an early age (that was normal at that time). It was what we call an arranged marriage, but it did not involve any purchase. And as I mentioned, the bride makes a notional visit to her husbands house. My grandmother was accompanied by her father and my great grandfather carried her on his shoulders (the approach to our ancestral house involved a steeply inclined road). But then she returned to her place. The consummation of marriage takes place years later (perhaps 10 years later, my grand parents never told me exactly when). This tradition is known as 'Gauna' in India, the coming of a woman to her husbands place after she has grown up. Gauna - Wikipedia

Even now most marriages are arranged in India (acceptance by the couple and their parents that the match is good), but child marriage is practically absent. Child marriage and bride purchase happens at the lowest economic strata of the society.

Please see my post #190.

 

[ecco]

Thank god I'm going to hell.

You are a funny man, or maybe you are serious.

So do you think there will be sex in hell? There might be thinking about it but there won’t be any doing it.

So, in addition to everything else, you also have intimate knowledge of Hell. How do you do it?

 

[ecco]

Then it isn’t orgasm, unless you know something I don’t know.

More accurately, I should have stated orgasm can be brought about with no physical stimulation whatsoever.

 

[ecco]

Are you saying that it is not part of LDS to instruct the young on what to say about scripture?

We have a curriculum in our Sunday Schools, Auxiliary meetings, Seminary and Institute classes.

We also encourage daily personal study.

Why do you imply that receiving instruction is the same as people doing what they are told?

Do you apply this standard to all fields of study?

Every student of any field is merely an automaton?

Most children learn to take secular teaching with a grain of salt at an early age. Especially those children who attend secular schools but come from very religious parents. Parents who instill into those children that secular teachings are wrong if they conflict with religious teachings.

Who ever tells children that the Sunday School instructers are untrustworthy?


"We have a curriculum in our Sunday Schools, Auxiliary meetings, Seminary and Institute classes." Indoctrination.

"We also encourage daily personal study." - More indoctrination.

 

[Jainarayan]

You are Italian/American and your grandmother was betrothed at age 7? I am aware of that practice in Italy. But at age 7??

My grandparents came to the US as adolescents in the early 1900s when their parents died. I don't know how they met.

 

[ecco]

The scriptures teach that we are to come to know the truths of the Gospel and related principles for ourselves.

Are you saying that all your knowledge and understanding of scripture came from your own reading? You never attended classes where other people "interpreted" scripture for you?

No, not at all.

Sharing how one interprets the scriptures is how we can become edified and also edify others.

We should seek out any and all interpretations, ponder on them, study them out and ultimately take them to the Lord in prayer with the hope of receiving revelation through the Holy Spirit.

It is only through revelation that we can come to know the truth of these things.

So, it's not that "The scriptures teach that we are to come to know the truths of the Gospel and related principles for ourselves." You read scriptures. You discuss scriptures, You come to a group consensus on what the scriptures mean. That is not coming to know the truth yourself.

When you were younger, you were influenced into how to interpret scriptural verses. When you got older, you became one of the influencers.

 

[ecco]

All you need to do is look at the world and it's problems.

So much suffering and heartache would be avoided if people saved themselves for their eternal mate.

As much as you try to avoid it, people like Warren Jeffs hold closer to the original practices than people like Mitt Romney. Your comment chooses to ignore your distant and not so distant history.

Your religion has done little to solve the world's problems.

 

[ecco]

I also know that until recently LDS believed in polygamous marriages. That kinda obviates "the husband and the wife" scenario doesn't it?

How so?

Any child born from that father would have only the one mother. Both of whom are married to each other.

Is that a response you got from studying scripture or a response provided by elders?

 

[ecco]

Are these the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ as stated in the Christian NT or teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ as depicted in the missing Golden Tablets? I'm asking because I really don't know.

Both. The teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ are eternal and unchanging.

Both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon (Golden Plates) contain the same teachings and Gospel.

The Book of Mormon is simply another witness of the same teachings recorded by a different people who lived upon the North American continent.

Also, the Golden Plates are not "missing", they were returned to the angel Moroni, who in mortality, was the man who had deposited the plates into the earth on the Hill Cummorah.

You said, "The teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ are eternal and unchanging" and "Both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon (Golden Plates) contain the same teachings and Gospel". If they are the same, why were the Golden Plates even necessary?

Is this what your understanding is:

Golden plates - Wikipedia
Translating the plates
See also: Life of Joseph Smith from 1827 to 1830
Smith said that the plates were engraved in an unknown language, and he told associates that he was capable of reading and translating them.[100] The translation took place mainly in Harmony, Pennsylvania (now Oakland Township), Emma's hometown, where Smith and his wife had moved in October 1827 with financial assistance from a prominent, though superstitious, Palmyra landowner Martin Harris.[101]The translation occurred in two phases: the first, from December 1827 to June 1828, during which Smith transcribed some of the characters and then dictated 116 manuscript pages to Harris, which were lost. The second phase began sporadically in early 1829 and then in earnest in April 1829 with the arrival of Oliver Cowdery, a schoolteacher who volunteered to serve as Smith's full-time scribe. In June 1829, Smith and Cowdery moved to Fayette, New York, completing the translation early the following month.


A 21st-century artistic representation of Joseph Smith translating the golden plates by examining a seer stone in his hat.
Smith used scribes to write the words he said were a translation of the golden plates, dictating the words while peering into seer stones, which he said allowed him to see the translation. Smith's translation process evolved from of his previous use of seer stones in treasure-seeking.[102] During the earliest phase of translation, Smith said he used what he called Urim and Thummim, two stones set in a frame like a set of large spectacles.[103] Witnesses said Smith placed the Urim and Thummim in his hat while he was translating.[104]

After the loss of the first 116 manuscript pages, Smith translated with a single seer stone, which some sources say he had previously used in treasure-seeking.[105] Smith placed the stone in a hat, buried his face in it to eliminate all outside light, and peered into the stone to see the words of the translation.[106] A few times during the translation, a curtain or blanket was raised between Smith and his scribe or between the living area and the area where Smith and his scribe worked.[107]Sometimes, Smith dictated to Harris from upstairs or from a different room.[108]

Smith's translation did not require the use of the plates themselves.[109] Though Smith himself said very little about the translation process, his friends and family said that as he looked into the stone, the written translation of the ancient script appeared to him in English.[110] There are several proposed explanations for how Smith composed his translation. In the 19th century, the most common explanation was that he copied the work from a manuscript written by Solomon Spaulding.[111] That theory is repudiated by Smith's preeminent modern biographers.[112] The most prominent modern theory is that Smith composed the translation in response to the provincial opinions of his time,[113]perhaps while in a magical trance-like state.[114] As a matter of faith, Latter Day Saints generally view the translation process as either an automatic process of transcribing text written within the stone[115] or an intuitive translation by Smith, assisted by a mystical connection with God, through the stone.[116]​

 

[ecco]

There are so many things that can be attached to that. There are so many ways religions can hammer people with that to keep them in line. I just picture a large herd of sheep being told where to go by twin dogs named Guilt and Sin. Just the two of them to keep the entire herd in line.

A very common and inaccurate picture.

No, it really isn't.

There are many grand religious edifices in the world. Who gave the money for their construction to the religious leaders?

Who instructs their children into the same religious beliefs that they have?

It is the world that hammers people down. Keeps them bottled up. Unable to breathe.

Actually, it is religions that hammers people down. Perhaps LDS does not preach guilt, sin, and redemption. Many religions do.

Just look at the media and see what secularism has done to this world.

The media tries to spread the truth. In counties where the media has been diminished, it is the central government that disseminates information. Do you know that most Chinese under age 20 have no idea what happened in Tiananmen square?

Secularism has eliminated smallpox, landed men on the moon, discovered the origins of humankind, etc, etc, etc.

You can't voice your opinion without being branded a bigot, a racist, homophobic, xenophobic or what have you.

When people make bigoted, racist, homophobic, xenophobic comments, they should be called bigoted, racist, homophobic, xenophobic.