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Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Here is a link to a 'proof of evolution!' Article..

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v481/n7381/full/nature10724.html

It provides no evidence, but only speculation & 'plausible' possibilities.

"Many cellular processes are carried out by molecular machines assemblies of multiple differentiated proteins that physically interact to execute biological functions1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Despite much speculation, strong evidence of the mechanisms by which these assemblies evolved is lacking. Here we use ancestral gene resurrection 9, 10, 11 and manipulative genetic experiments to determine how the complexity of an essential molecular machine, the hexameric transmembrane ring of the eukaryotic V-ATPase proton pump, increased hundreds of millions of years ago. We show that the ring of Fungi, which is composed of three paralogous proteins, evolved from a more ancient two-paralogue complex because of a gene duplication that was followed by loss in each daughter copy of specific interfaces by which it interacts with other ring proteins. These losses were complementary, so both copies became obligate components with restricted spatial roles in the complex. Reintroducing a single historical mutation from each paralogue lineage into the resurrected ancestral proteins is sufficient to recapitulate their asymmetric degeneration and trigger the requirement for the more elaborate three-component ring. Our experiments show that increased complexity in an essential molecular machine evolved because of simple, high-probability evolutionary processes, without the apparent evolution of novel functions. They point to a plausible mechanism for the evolution of complexity in other multi-paralogue protein complexes.."

Now i will readily admit that this article is full to the brim with pseudo science jargon, attempting to mask what they are saying with complex, 'sciencey!' sounding words. But if you can follow plain english, & sift through the bull, you can understand what is being said.

Above, the phrases, 'ancestral gene resurrection', & 'manipulative genetic experiments' evidently refer to some computer models they have plugged the data into. It's not clear WHAT the 'experiment' is, but it is not anything real.. just some calculations based on assumptions about something they speculate that happened 'hundreds of millions of years ago'! Are you guys THAT desperate? Do you have NO skepticism? They don't have any genes from 'hundreds of millions of years ago'! They have not 'resurrected' any ancestral genes! They made a computer model based on what they want to find.. no doubt to renew a grant or something.

This is not scientific research, it is pseudo science gobbledy gook. It may fool gullible people who are impressed with words they don't understand, & give the appearance of scientific credibility because of that, but it is merely a cobbled jumble of meaningless words.. put together to say nothing. Obfuscation is the goal, not enlightenment.

This is one of the most blatant, absurd excuses for science.. i am appalled that this is read by thinking people who give it credibility. ..and they want to charge for the full text.. :rolleyes:

It shows me how pathetically ignorant people are about the ToE. They eagerly swallow up this crap, but cry, 'Blasphemy' over any critique or examination of the actual SCIENCE behind the 'theory'. Someday, the ToE will go the way of the flat earth theory, or the sun revolving around the earth.. or maybe using leeches to draw out bad blood.. I won't probably be around to see it, but eventually, real science will overcome this philosophical propaganda they pitch as 'science'.
Is this all you're going to do now? Quote random papers that are confusing to you and call people who accept evolutionary theory names?
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
You poor martyr.

your treatment of it is rather naive and child-like.

your arguments are rather boring and trite

You just found ways to ignore/dismiss them.

Poor baby.

Ah, a 'new!' narrative!

'This poor, stupid, ignorant, arrogant, boastful, lying poster!'

..you conveniently ignore all of my points in favor of ad hom deflections..

..expected, from an unscientific propagandist.. :shrug:

If anyone wants to debate the science of common descent, instead of detailed nuances about me, personally, I'm still game.

But ditch the ad hom, ridicule, and snark. This is about science and evidence, in the natural world, not progressive hysteria.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
The fact is, that organisms do not create new genetic information.
Really? How are you defining "new genetic information"? Nucleotide sequences?

They can only produce traits that are present in the parent stock.
Well we know for a fact that's not true. Shoot, as an undergrad I conducted an experiment where we took a single-clone strain of E. coli ("single-clone strain" means the colony was descended from a single individual) and watched them evolve antibiotic resistance. We even conducted genetic analysis of the original strain and the evolved strain, compared them, and identified the mutations and novel genetic sequences that conferred the new trait.

Adapting bacteria and yeasts merely adapt, with the ALREADY EXISTING genes that enable them to do so. They do not change, in their genetic structure. Bacteria remain bacteria. Yeasts remain yeasts. They are not 'evolving!' into another organism. They remain CONSTANT, for as long as we have observed them, with no evidence of genomic structural changes. That is a belief, not science.

Dogs vary, within the parameters of their parent variability. As they isolate in specific morphologies, they vary LESS, not more. They devolve, and have less diversity. ALL ORGANISMS are at the tips of their phylogenetic tree, and many low diversity organisms have become extinct, lacking the necessary genetic options to adapt to changing environments.

THAT is observable reality, not the far fetched BELIEF, that organisms are constantly generating new genes, new chromosomes, and new traits. They do not vary outside of their dna 'blueprint', but only produce what the parent stock offered.

It is simple science, with no need to muddy it with speculative theories and religious beliefs that are science fiction, not observable science.
Sorry, but you're simply wrong. There's no other way to put it....you're just wrong.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Is this all you're going to do now? Quote random papers that are confusing to you and call people who accept evolutionary theory names?
I thought that was all he was doing. Did he do something different somewhere on here and I missed it?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, that was me (actually, the Quora dude was active on Christianforums, but he may have been here also). He plagiarized a LOT, yet when caught, he would insist that he had never heard of the essay that he... copy-pasted... He was another of those 'decades of study'-types. In his case, it was a mere 3 decades...
One example:
Does science actually admit "design"?
I remember it now. You did mention that his post here was word for word the same as seen on Quora. I checked it out.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
I remember it now. You did mention that his post here was word for word the same as seen on Quora. I checked it out.
Are you falsely accusing me again? This time of plagiarism?

You should specify you are talking about someone else, and only trying to smear me by association.

..but details, Truth, and honesty are not important to propagandists, just how things can be spun to appear.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Well we know for a fact that's not true. Shoot, as an undergrad I conducted an experiment where we took a single-clone strain of E. coli ("single-clone strain" means the colony was descended from a single individual) and watched them evolve antibiotic resistance. We even conducted genetic analysis of the original strain and the evolved strain, compared them, and identified the mutations and novel genetic sequences that conferred the new trait.
That is no different than the e.coli study referenced earlier. If you want to believe this is 'proof of common descent!', go right ahead. But all it does is reveal the adaptability of e.coli, and bacteria in general. It is not 'gene creation!' There is no 'speciation!', and NO STRUCTURAL CHANGES to the genome. The e.coli remain rigidly e.coli. they do not 'evolve!', they just vary within their genetic parameters.
Sorry, but you're simply wrong. There's no other way to put it....you're just wrong.
Well that's that. I can't refute such logic or indisputable facts.
;)
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
Are you falsely accusing me again? This time of plagiarism?

You should specify you are talking about someone else, and only trying to smear me by association.

..but details, Truth, and honesty are not important to propagandists, just how things can be spun to appear.
So when are you going to post with truth and honestly. You ignore the evidence intentionally and spin everything around and misrepresent everything. The E. coli studies showed genetic change which you deny. Real evidence does not agree with you.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
So when are you going to post with truth and honestly. You ignore the evidence intentionally and spin everything around and misrepresent everything. The E. coli studies showed genetic change which you deny. Real evidence does not agree with you.
?
Did you reply to the wrong post?

..doesn't matter.. seems you are joining the hecklers and false accusers.. too bad..
 

Bear Wild

Well-Known Member
That is no different than the e.coli study referenced earlier. If you want to believe this is 'proof of common descent!', go right ahead. But all it does is reveal the adaptability of e.coli, and bacteria in general. It is not 'gene creation!' There is no 'speciation!', and NO STRUCTURAL CHANGES to the genome. The e.coli remain rigidly e.coli. they do not 'evolve!', they just vary within their genetic parameters.

Well that's that. I can't refute such logic or indisputable facts.
;)
The point of the studies was to show how in a short period of time how much genetic change occurred and how the different strains were diverging from each other. You stated "Start with ONE bit of evidence.. scientifically verifiable evidence.. that supports (or refutes) the theory of common descent. Simple." You were given a bit of evidence that shows the genetic change required for evolution and common descent to occur then say it is insufficient. Of course the E. coli studies do not show complete evidence for common descent. There is no one study that does that. It is the total accumulative information one study and observation after another that shows that the evidence for the theory of evolution can support common descent.
Given the rate of genetic change in E. coli and create more complex environments with new niches the changes will add up and the different strains will not be the same. They already in a short time revealed significant divergence in genetic content.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
That is no different than the e.coli study referenced earlier. If you want to believe this is 'proof of common descent!', go right ahead. But all it does is reveal the adaptability of e.coli, and bacteria in general. It is not 'gene creation!' There is no 'speciation!', and NO STRUCTURAL CHANGES to the genome. The e.coli remain rigidly e.coli. they do not 'evolve!', they just vary within their genetic parameters.
Once again, the statement he was specifically responding to was your assertion:

"They can only produce traits that are present in the parent stock."

Do you or do you not accept that the example given by JoseFly represents an example of a trait developing that didn't exist in the parent stock?
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
It is absurd, that regardless of how many times i show, with facts, that the e.coli study does NOT even address common descent, the True Believers plug their ears and repeat their mantra anyway.

from the study:
Hall's genetic analysis indicated the underlying mutation was complex, but he was ultimately unable to identify the precise changes or genes involved, leading him to hypothesize activation of a cryptic transporter gene.

The only thing concluded was a hypothesis of 'new genes!' They were not identified. The 'changes!' were not genetically defined. Adaptation was observed, but it is a FALSE EQUIVALENCE, to leap to 'common descent!' from variability, or micro evolution.

Here are a few of my many rebuttals for the FALSE CLAIM, that 'e.coli proves common descent!' There is no evidence for that conclusion, and it only reveals desperation from the ETBs, who have nothing substantial to evidence their beliefs.
Its tough on me, to try to sift through post after post of irrational religious hysteria, to find a 'point' to address. This is one i have seen, now, a couple of times:

- e.coli have evolved to a different species, and created new traits

Perhaps this could be presented in a logical way, with the evidence used to support the belief in common descent. But since it is only asserted as a vague proof text, i can only dismiss it with my own assertion:

- e.coli are the same species, that have adapted to digest citrates
This is only evidence of micro, which is not in question. It does not indicate a change in the genomic architecture. It is not macro evolution.

Since this topic is easily sidetracked with emotional and philosophical beliefs, the actual evidence is overlooked. I will re-examine some of the 'evidence' mentioned FOR common descent.

E.coli study.
This study has been presented several times. It is supposed to prove that traits are 'created' on the fly, by organisms adapting to changes in their environment. It is not a speciation event. That claim is refuted by the scientists who did the study. The study also denies any knowledge of a specific gene, either changing or created to digest citrates. That is merely hypothesized. There is nothing here. It is ASSERTED and ALLEGED by others, that this 'proves evolution!', but the ones doing the study make no such claim, and close examination reveals that the claim of 'proof of evolution!', is a deceptive lie. It is not evidence of common descent at all. No genes were identified as 'new!', no speciation took place. The organism in the study is still e.coli, with the same genetic architecture, drawing from the same gene pool.

from the study:
Hall's genetic analysis indicated the underlying mutation was complex, but he was ultimately unable to identify the precise changes or genes involved, leading him to hypothesize activation of a cryptic transporter gene.

So, there is NO EVIDENCE of 'new!' genes, just common adaptation. It is like the moths on trees.. dark ones get 'selected' to survive, and the traits that already exist are selected, either naturally or by human engineering. This is evidence of normal adaptation, or micro evolution, which is not disputed by anyone. But it does not evidence or support the LEAP to macro evolution, or a vertical change in the genetic structure.. adding genes, chromosomes, etc. No study has EVER OBSERVED any such genomic changes in the parent architecture. The BELIEF that organisms can add, subtract, create, or conjure up 'new!' genetic information is unsupported by scientific observation.

No new genes were defined. No changes were made in the genomic architecture. They started out e.coli, and remained e.coli. they adapted to digest citrates, from either ALREADY EXISTING traits, deep in the gene pool, or some unique ability of e.coli to adapt to diverse conditions. There is NO WAY, this is a speciation event, nor evidence of a 'gene creating mechanism'. That is speculation.

It is a huge stretch.. a LEAP OF FAITH, to 'see!' common descent in this oft quoted study. If that's what you see, or want to see, fine. Enjoy your beliefs. But don't try to bully me into buying that half baked theory, with such pathetic evidence.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
I examined the study on e.Coli in greater detail here. The study does NOT conclude or evidence 'common descent!', in any way, shape, or form. It is blind faith and desperation that drives the True Believers to cling irrationally to this minor study on bacteria as some kind of Holy Grail that proves common descent. The conjecture and speculations that have come from this obscure study reveal the impotence of the Evolution True Believers to evidence their beliefs.

This is the best you've got? Repeated and asserted over and over, as if that makes it 'scientific proof!'? Chanting, 'E.coli, E.coli..', over and over does not make a logical or scientific argument. Asserting 'proof of common descent!', with such dubious evidence only reveals blind faith and Indoctrination.

If all that is being said is that organisms vary within their genetic parameters, then there is no debate. E coli is unique, in that it has a wide range of adaptability, but there is NO EVIDENCE that it came from (or is going to), some simpler (or complex) genetic structure.

Here i address the e coli study that has been alluded to. Quotes from the study are italicized.

Contribution of Horizontal Gene Transfer to the Evolution of Saccharomyces cerevisiae

genomic evolution was nearly constant for 20,000 generations. Such clock-like regularity is usually viewed as the signature of neutral evolution, but several lines of evidence indicate that almost all of these mutations were beneficial. This same population later evolved an elevated mutation rate and accumulated hundreds of additional mutations dominated by a neutral signature.

Pathetically, i understand this.. being a bit of a science geek, & having followed with great interest this subject for decades. I take issue with the use of the terminology, 'evolution', as it seems to use circular reasoning.. using the premise (and terminology) to prove itself. If by 'genomic evolution' you merely mean minor changes in generations, or micro evolution, that is plainly obvious. But to correlate it with macro is still a false equivalence.

Now, the study is claiming 'beneficial' mutations, among 'several lines of evidence'. I am a bit confused about the statement above, which seems to conflict with the findings of the study:

Of the 12 populations, six have so far been reported to have developed defects in their ability to repair DNA, greatly increasing the rate of mutation in those strains.[5][19][20] Although the bacteria in each population are thought to have generated hundreds of millions of mutations over the first 20,000 generations, Lenski has estimated that within this time frame,only 10 to 20 beneficial mutations achieved fixation in each population, with fewer than 100 total point mutations (including neutral mutations) reaching fixation in each population.

So there is a question about the results.. were 'almost all mutations beneficial'? Or were there 'only 10-20 beneficial mutations?

That is a fine point, & may be due more to the writer, than the experiment itself.

Ok lets go to the findings, & see what conclusions they compel.
* Change in fitness.
All populations showed a pattern of rapid increase in relative fitness during early generations, with this increase decelerating over time
* defects in genome repair
Of the 12 populations, six have so far been reported to have developed defects in their ability to repair DNA, greatly increasing the rate of mutation in those strains
* increase in cell size, & morphological change
All twelve of the experimental populations show an increase in cell size concurrent with a decline in maximum population density, and in many of the populations, a more rounded cell shape
* Polymorphism & phylogenetic comparison
Two distinct variants, S and L, were identified in the population designated Ara-2 at 18,000 generations based on their formation of small and large colonies, respectively.[25] Clones of the S and L types could co-exist stably in co-culture with each other, indicating they occupied distinct niches in the population
* Citrate usage
The inability to grow aerobically on citrate, referred to as a Cit− phenotype, is considered a defining characteristic of E. coli as a species, and one that has been a valuable means of differentiating E. coli from pathogenic Salmonella. While Cit+ strains of E. coli have been isolated from environmental and agricultural samples, in every such case, the trait was found to be due to the presence of a plasmid containing a foreign citrate transporter.[32] A single, spontaneous Cit+ mutant of E. coli was reported by Hall in 1982.[33] This mutant had been isolated during prolonged selection for growth on another novel substance in a growth broth that also contained citrate. Hall's genetic analysis indicated the underlying mutation was complex, but he was ultimately unable to identify the precise changes or genes involved, leading him to hypothesize activation of a cryptic transporter gene

There is a bit more in this study, & lots of commentary about the findings. But the primary evidence being presented is the ability of e.coli 'to grow aerobically on citrate', when oxygen is present.

Now, let us examine the claims that this is evidence for macro evolution, which predicts a structural change in the genome.

Has there been a 'structural change' in the dna? No. This is still a strain of e.coli. It is not another, more advanced bacteria, but one of the simplest, most basic ones there is, & even over thousands of generations, it is still e.coli, with a few mutations & variations, perhaps, but genetically, morphologically, & phylogenetically, unchanged. It is just a slightly different genotype, and almost an exact phenotype.

Here are some other facts about this study.
  • E.coli is an asexual organism, able to reproduce by itself.
  • The study began in 1988, & by 2016 has increased to 66,000 generations.
  • E.coli has been found to be extremely adaptive, with ability to survive & adapt to many different conditions.
  • There are many criticisms of this study's conclusions, among peer reviewed scientists. Extrapolations not warranted by the data are made, and it has been sensationalized for marketing or hype.
  • This study provides no evidence for any structural changes in the genome.
I like this study. I am intrigued by the findings about e.coli, & its amazing adaptability to its environment. It is similar to the shark, in its longevity & ability to live in whatever environmental variables come its way.

But, for those who think this study provide evidence for the ToE, you are greatly mistaken. It does not. It merely illustrates the adaptability of e.coli.

The claim of 'new speciation' is only an arbitrary definition, not anything compelled by any changes in the morphology or genetic structure of the organism. To claim this is 'real evolution!' is absurd. It is obviously just adaptation, & only demonstrates the viability & adaptability of this particular organism. Some organisms do NOT have this capability, but die under unfriendly conditions. So this phenomenon does not apply universally, as would be expected if this were a mechanism for macro evolution, but is unique to e.coli.

Lenski criticizes Van Hofwegen et al.'s description of the initial evolution of Cit+ as a "speciation event" by pointing out that the LTEE was not designed to isolate citrate-using mutants or to deal with speciation since in their 2008 paper they said "that becoming Cit+ was only a first step on the road to possible speciation", and thus did not propose that the Cit+ mutants were a different species, but that speciation might be an eventual consequence of the trait's evolution

So the claim of 'new speciation!' is not even claimed by Lenski, the one doing the study, even though hordes of eager Believers cling to it as 'scientific proof!' of common descent.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Are you falsely accusing me again? This time of plagiarism?

You should specify you are talking about someone else, and only trying to smear me by association.

..but details, Truth, and honesty are not important to propagandists, just how things can be spun to appear.
Wow, ego much?

If you had followed the link I presented, or actually read the posts in question, you should have been able to see it was someone else.

Or maybe you just have a guilty conscience...
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I examined the study on e.Coli in greater detail here. The study does NOT conclude or evidence 'common descent!', in any way, shape, or form. It is blind faith and desperation that drives the True Believers to cling irrationally to this minor study on bacteria as some kind of Holy Grail that proves common descent. The conjecture and speculations that have come from this obscure study reveal the impotence of the Evolution True Believers to evidence their beliefs.

This is the best you've got? Repeated and asserted over and over, as if that makes it 'scientific proof!'? Chanting, 'E.coli, E.coli..', over and over does not make a logical or scientific argument. Asserting 'proof of common descent!', with such dubious evidence only reveals blind faith and Indoctrination.
Okay, I'll try one more time in a way that is more difficult to miss:

Once again, the statement he was specifically responding to was your assertion:

"They can only produce traits that are present in the parent stock."

Do you or do you not accept that the example given by JoseFly represents an example of a trait developing that didn't exist in the parent stock?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It is absurd, that regardless of how many times i show, with facts, that the e.coli study does NOT even address common descent, the True Believers plug their ears and repeat their mantra anyway.

from the study:
Hall's genetic analysis indicated the underlying mutation was complex, but he was ultimately unable to identify the precise changes or genes involved, leading him to hypothesize activation of a cryptic transporter gene.

The only thing concluded was a hypothesis of 'new genes!' They were not identified. The 'changes!' were not genetically defined. Adaptation was observed, but it is a FALSE EQUIVALENCE, to leap to 'common descent!' from variability, or micro evolution.

Here are a few of my many rebuttals for the FALSE CLAIM, that 'e.coli proves common descent!' There is no evidence for that conclusion, and it only reveals desperation from the ETBs, who have nothing substantial to evidence their beliefs.
It is so cool and intellectual how you keep writing about E.coli even when nobody brings it up.

It is almost as if you can only reply to evidence that you have archived "replies" to.....
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
I cannot, or will not, debate deceptive propagandists. Your trademark 'belittling' outs you.
TRANSLATION:
"I have no pre-fabricated dodges for that - I will whine about meanies!"

Define "evidence".

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

And simple questions he ran away from:

1. Please define "new genetic information" as you understand it.
2. Explain how such new genetic information could be created.
3. Explain why new genes are needed to alter phenotype.
4. explain how mutations are not changes in the genome.

A true pretender.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
It is so cool and intellectual how you keep writing about E.coli even when nobody brings it up.
It is almost as if you can only reply to evidence that you have archived "replies" to.....
Its pathetic that you cannot follow the responses, but just attack with personal sniping.. :rolleyes:

You did not read the other poster's 'evidence?'
:facepalm:

Ad hom.. it's all you have.. :shrug:

But i suppose it is to be expected. Those who wallow in e.coli rich environments end up with e.coli for brains.. ;)
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
OMIT whining dodges and general incel-alt-right whining..


Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

And simple questions he ran away from:

1. Please define "new genetic information" as you understand it.
2. Explain how such new genetic information could be created.
3. Explain why new genes are needed to alter phenotype.
4. explain how mutations are not changes in the genome.
5. Define "evidence"
 
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