Bibliolatry

[Dan From Smithville]

People are idol factories no doubt about that.
But 'God has spoken' and should be listened to appropriately
Appropriate includes believing the Bible as claimed in the sense of the literature, which I believe is in a high view

What do you mean here? If some of it is allegory, but some believe it is true, that is OK, until they start using that belief to tell the rest of what to do and to think. Then we are no better off than the Taliban and are heading for a theocracy.

I remain unconvinced that you are not deifying the Bible. And worse, not the Bible itself, but your interpretation of the Bible. Because, let's face it, a lot of people claim a literal interpretation, but what they really mean is "their" interpretation.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I think Biblalotry is often a claim by someone with a far weaker view of the Bible that Jesus, Moses or Apostles.... basically weaker than the writers of the Bible who had a high view

I think that people that demand the Bible be seen as inerrant have a weak faith. Faith and acceptance of Christ is all that is asked of us. Everything else is added by Bible worshipers.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

How can the bible be used as a false idol? A person has to have faith in bible and believe that it is correct before they can have faith, believe and worship the god it speaks of.
No bible equals no creator God.

Demanding that claims of the Bible supercede common sense, logic, reason and evidence is the primary way it is used.

Faith does not demand evidence to support it. Believing in the Bible means having evidence. Not a requirement of faith.

You are wrongly equating my position to denial of the Bible. It is definitely not that. I have not said to reject the Bible or that I reject the Bible, but understand it in context and that not everything need to be some verified fact in order to believe. That would be demanding evidence of God.

So, before the Bible was ever written, God did not exist? What did those people write about God for then?

As evidence, the Bible can only be used to show the existence of beliefs of the people that wrote it. The subject of the Bible has no evidence and must be accepted by faith. I am not considering personal experience, since that cannot be objectively described. By itself, the Bible is not God. Taking it to the extreme that it is on the same level as God and infallible is trying to turn it into a god.

 

[Wandering Monk]

How can the bible be used as a false idol? A person has to have faith in bible and believe that it is correct before they can have faith, believe and worship the god it speaks of.
No bible equals no creator God.

Did God exist before the Bible? Is the Bible the only source for the existence of God?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What message do you get from
-the universe created by a god?
-man being created by a god?
-a great flood caused by the same god killing most of mankind?
-a talking snake and donkey?
Most of the bible doesn't make since at all unless you believe in myths and god's.

This is irrelevant to the point of the discussion about turning the Bible into a false idol. I have already stated as an example that I do not believe that much of Genesis is an historical account of events that actually happen as described. The story is unsupported by the evidence. There is no need to believe it as such. The claim that we were created by God is the important part and that cannot be refuted by any test. Anything further would be turning this discussion into what I believe and why. We all know where that will lead. Those people called not true Christians by other Christians that have no idea or real means to determine the belief of others. This has a poor history of success and a lot of needless suffering and abuse attached. I do not care how others believe. I accept that they are Christian because they say so, and no one has any means to determine otherwise. But that does not mean that I cannot see when people stray. Belief may not have evidence, but straying does. Turning their belief into an attack on valid subjects is straying. Bible worship is straying.

 

[We Never Know]

Demanding that claims of the Bible supercede common sense, logic, reason and evidence is the primary way it is used.

Faith does not demand evidence to support it. Believing in the Bible means having evidence. Not a requirement of faith.

You are wrongly equating my position to denial of the Bible. It is definitely not that. I have not said to reject the Bible or that I reject the Bible, but understand it in context and that not everything need to be some verified fact in order to believe. That would be demanding evidence of God.

So, before the Bible was ever written, God did not exist? What did those people write about God for then?

As evidence, the Bible can only be used to show the existence of beliefs of the people that wrote it. The subject of the Bible has no evidence and must be accepted by faith. I am not considering personal experience, since that cannot be objectively described. By itself, the Bible is not God. Taking it to the extreme that it is on the same level as God and infallible is trying to turn it into a god.

Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying you do or don't believe the bible. The god the bible speaks of is only known from the bible to my knowledge. To believe and have faith in the god it speaks of means one has to believe and have faith in the bible.
They go hand in hand. Would any one believe in the creator god without the bible? Would any one believe in the bible without believing in the creator god? It's doubtful. I wasn't saying you're right or wrong for believing in the god the bible speaks of but yet believing the bible is stories. You have to swallow one and accept the other, and in reverse.

 

[We Never Know]

This is irrelevant to the point of the discussion about turning the Bible into a false idol. I have already stated as an example that I do not believe that much of Genesis is an historical account of events that actually happen as described. The story is unsupported by the evidence. There is no need to believe it as such. The claim that we were created by God is the important part and that cannot be refuted by any test. Anything further would be turning this discussion into what I believe and why. We all know where that will lead. Those people called not true Christians by other Christians that have no idea or real means to determine the belief of others. This has a poor history of success and a lot of needless suffering and abuse attached. I do not care how others believe. I accept that they are Christian because they say so, and no one has any means to determine otherwise. But that does not mean that I cannot see when people stray. Belief may not have evidence, but straying does. Turning their belief into an attack on valid subjects is straying. Bible worship is straying.

What you believe or accept about the bible or god is none of my business but you can't deny one and accept the other.
If one believes in the god the bible speaks of, how can one deny what the bible says?
If one believes in the bible, how can they deny the creator?
The stories in the bible and the stories about god both rely on each other. It's impossible to accept one and deny the other and claim it's logical.

 

[We Never Know]

Did God exist before the Bible? Is the Bible the only source for the existence of God?

For the god of "the bible". I would say yes.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Did God exist before the Bible? Is the Bible the only source for the existence of God?

I have not heard anyone claim that God did not exist before the writing of the Bible. Given the history of Christianity and Judaism, I find a statement like his sort of silly. In the context, he was probably going somewhere else with that, and it came out wrong.

Obviously, belief in and worship of God predates the oral and written traditions.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

What you believe or accept about the bible or god is none of my business but you can't deny one and accept the other.
If one believes in the god the bible speaks of, how can one deny what the bible says?
If one believes in the bible, how can they deny the creator?
The stories in the bible and the stories about god both rely on each other. It's impossible to accept one and deny the other and claim it's logical.

I have been very careful in what I have written here, yet you have missed that. I have not denied what the Bible says, I have made it clear that my interpretation of some of it is not a literal interpretation. As I said, I can see where this is going and soon it will be a p***ing contest about my beliefs, which is exactly the groundwork you are laying.

Let us get back to the subject at hand. There are many interpretations of the Bible. There are known and established inconsistencies and errors in the Bible. There are many claims of the Bible that defy support of evidence. People, whether they acknowledge it or not, often pick and choose what they follow in the Bible. I do not know any Christians that follow dietary restrictions listed in the Bible, but I am aware that some do, for instance.

The evidence I see is that the Bible can be the subject of idol worship like any other object. The start of this is a literal interpretation and consideration of the Bible as infallible. I have seen two people, each declaring the Bible is infallible, disagree over points in the Bible. Even among those that consider it infallible, arguments still break out over whose interpretation of that infallibility is the correct interpretation. As silly as that sounds, it is something that happens frequently.

Given the mix of skill in biblical scholarship among Christians and constant bickering over interpretation, how is a demand that it be literal of much use accepting and following Christ?

 

[We Never Know]

I have been very careful in what I have written here, yet you have missed that. I have not denied what the Bible says, I have made it clear that my interpretation of some of it is not a literal interpretation. As I said, I can see where this is going and soon it will be a p***ing contest about my beliefs, which is exactly the groundwork you are laying.

Let us get back to the subject at hand. There are many interpretations of the Bible. There are known and established inconsistencies and errors in the Bible. There are many claims of the Bible that defy support of evidence. People, whether they acknowledge it or not, often pick and choose what they follow in the Bible. I do not know any Christians that follow dietary restrictions listed in the Bible, but I am aware that some do, for instance.

The evidence I see is that the Bible can be the subject of idol worship like any other object. The start of this is a literal interpretation and consideration of the Bible as infallible. I have seen two people, each declaring the Bible is infallible, disagree over points in the Bible. Even among those that consider it infallible, arguments still break out over whose interpretation of that infallibility is the correct interpretation. As silly as that sounds, it is something that happens frequently.

Given the mix of skill in biblical scholarship among Christians and constant bickering over interpretation, how is a demand that it be literal of much use accepting and following Christ?

One cannot believe in Santa and not presents.
Or the Easter bunny without eggs.
Or the tooth fairy with out a $ return.
One goes hand in hand with the other. How can one accept reality and evidence yet still believe in myths and gods that are neither and still claim it's logic? That's all I'm saying.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sorry if you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying you do or don't believe the bible. The god the bible speaks of is only known from the bible to my knowledge. To believe and have faith in the god it speaks of means one has to believe and have faith in the bible.
They go hand in hand. Would any one believe in the creator god without the bible? Would any one believe in the bible without believing in the creator god? It's doubtful. I wasn't saying you're right or wrong for believing in the god the bible speaks of but yet believing the bible is stories. You have to swallow one and accept the other, and in reverse.

There are other documents besides the Bible, but for Christianity, the Bible is the main source. The only source for anything on Christ. Of course, I am not a biblical scholar, so I could be wrong on that, but all the extra-biblical writing on Christ that I know of is later and derived from the biblical accounts.

People have claimed to have been inspired by God or visited by God outside of the Bible. I cannot speak on the validity of their inspiration or contact, but there is that.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

One cannot believe in Santa and not presents.
Or the Easter bunny without eggs.
Or the tooth fairy with out a $ return.
One goes hand in hand with the other. That's all I'm saying.

You can believe all sorts of things. I believe you said something to that effect early on in this thread. Naughty children that did not get presents, presumably still believed in Santa. They were just not too happy with him. Sometimes the tooth fairy is tired from working all day and forgets to wake up to get the tooth and exchange it for dollars. Some fast talking and a little slight of hand can fix that though.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

How prevalent do you think Bibliolatry is in the United States, using this definition:

"In Christianity, bibliolatry is used to describe extreme devotion to the Bible or to biblical inerrancy.[3] Supporters of biblical inerrancy point to passages (such as 2 Timothy 3:16–17) interpreted to say that the Bible, as received, is a complete source of what must be known about God."

Bibliolatry - Wikipedia
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To answer your question from my perspective, I think it is very prevalent.

 

[We Never Know]

You can believe all sorts of things. I believe you said something to that effect early on in this thread. Naughty children that did not get presents, presumably still believed in Santa. They were just not too happy with him. Sometimes the tooth fairy is tired from working all day and forgets to wake up to get the tooth and exchange it for dollars. Some fast talking and a little slight of hand can fix that though.

Trick of hands and trick of words doesn't change reality. I'm guessing like me you don't believe in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, etc like most don't but yet why do so many hold onto the myth and fantasy of a god. I think it stems from fear and hoping something is better than the life they lived.
After all with santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy, it's all about a reward, same as believing in god comes down to a reward of going to heaven.

 

[Deeje]

I know it is a Christian belief. There is no way to prove the premise so it is an article of faith. Don't try to paint it otherwise.

Why do you think it needs to be painted at all? Jesus had one message for everyone. Some accepted it on faith and others did not, preferring to stick with their own view of things. He presented his message to all regardless....'take it or leave it'. What we do in response to that message will determine whether God provides us with the wherewithal's to understand and embrace it...or to reject it. It's up to us. Processes are at work in our own minds and hearts that we are not aware of....yet God is very aware. We make decisions and yet we don't know why. I believe God does.

John 6:65
Jesus said....."This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
This is the reason why some can embrace the Bible's message and form a close relationship with God, whilst others cannot. God does not need to prove himself to anyone....but those who see the proof of his existence in creation are completely convinced that life on this planet is no accident. We have a purpose in being here.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Trick of hands and trick of words doesn't change reality. I'm guessing like me you don't believe in santa, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny, etc like most don't but yet why do so many hold onto the myth and fantasy of a god. I think it stems from fear and hoping something is better than the life they lived.
After all with santa, easter bunny, tooth fairy, it's all about a reward, same as believing in god comes down to a reward of going to heaven.

I do recognize presents, eggs, money and teeth. All those are physical things that have evidence The fact that those physical objects are parts of stories that contain characters that are not real, does not mean there is not something to be learned by those stories. It is all a matter of interpretation, but considering any of those true depictions of real beings and taking that further and taking action based on that consideration is beyond the scope of belief and faith. Some of it may be harmless, but some do not stop there. Unfortunately, tonight, I will have to stop here.

 

[We Never Know]

Why do you think it needs to be painted at all? Jesus had one message for everyone. Some accepted it on faith and others did not, preferring to stick with their own view of things. He presented his message to all regardless....'take it or leave it'. What we do in response to that message will determine whether God provides us with the wherewithal's to understand and embrace it...or to reject it. It's up to us. Processes are at work in our own minds and hearts that we are not aware of....yet God is very aware. We make decisions and yet we don't know why. I believe God does.

John 6:65
Jesus said....."This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
This is the reason why some can embrace the Bible's message and form a close relationship with God, whilst others cannot. God does not need to prove himself to anyone....but those who see the proof of his existence in creation are completely convinced that life on this planet is no accident. We have a purpose in being here.

You have nothing but a book of myths written by men. Don't fear living or live thinning when death comes you will be rewarded. When death comes, you like me and everyone else will cease to exist. We will go back to the earth we came from. There is no ever after or reward of heaven.
If you believe different, give me evidence besides a book written by men that had a crappy life.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Which is completely circular reasoning. 'The Bible is God's Word because the Bible says the Bible is God's word.'

And it does not even make that claim for the Bible. One has to use slightly imaginative interpretation to come to that belief.

 

[We Never Know]

I do recognize presents, eggs, money and teeth. All those are physical things that have evidence The fact that those physical objects are parts of stories that contain characters that are not real, does not mean there is not something to be learned by those stories. It is all a matter of interpretation, but considering any of those true depictions of real beings and taking that further and taking action based on that consideration is beyond the scope of belief and faith. Some of it may be harmless, but some do not stop there. Unfortunately, tonight, I will have to stop here.

Did santa a bring your presents?
Did the easter bunny bring you eggs?
Did the tooth fairy bring you money for your teeth. Quit tap dancing looking for some line to hang on to.
You can be a slim shady and try to dance around reality. It doesn't change reality or the fact you believe in myths.

Edit. Your beliefs are your beliefs. It's none of my business and I won't try to change any of them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I find it quite proven with its prophetic capacity. But I'm sure there are those who disagree.

All I can find are failed prophecies. Most of the so called "fulfilled" prophecies fail at the start by being overly vague or open ended. The specific prophecies fail so badly that they have to be reinterpreted.