Issues with Islam that need to be addressed

[Jim]

What I did in this thread might have created a false impression of what I think. I do think that there might be millions of Muslims who think that the Quran endorses the worst kinds of Islam. I'm not sure that there are. I'm not sure that there aren't. I'm guessing that there are proportionally as many Muslims who think that, as there are Christians who think that the Bible endorses the worst kind of Christianity, and people who misuse research reports to excuse all kinds of prejudices, delusions, cruelty and brutality.

The Quran is part of a story. The danger I see in Islam is the same as the danger I see in any religion or anti-religion, the dark side of human nature in which any excuse will do for people to indulge their worst impulses; in which people draw lines between themselves and others and harden their hearts towards them; and which rips religious scriptures and research reports out of the context of their stories to use them for purposes diametrically opposed to their original purposes.

 

[Jim]

I'm also struggling a bit to understand where you're coming from with your above questions. It seems like you're saying 'this is all rather pointless', but I could be wrong.

Sorry. That wasn't really meant for you. See this post for an explanation.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Sorry. That wasn't really meant for you. See this post for an explanation.

No worries!

 

[Jim]

One of the issues wIth Islam that I think needs to be addressed is that everything that anti-Muslim propaganda is saying about Islam and the Quran might be true. Yes, I’m saying that. Everything that anti-Muslim propaganda is saying about Islam and the Quran might be true, of some kinds of Islam, and some ways of understanding the Quran. Namely, precisely those kinds of Islam, and those ways of understanding the Quran, that anti-Muslim propaganda is helping to promote, by insisting on that Islam as the only true Islam, and that way of understanding the Quran as the only honest way. If anyone really wants to help reduce the danger from the worst kinds of Islam, they can start by not helping to promote those kinds of Islam. One of the best ways of addressing that issue might be, not to debate about it, but just to shine a bright light on it every time it appears.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Show me another religion that even comes close to these numbers in modern times, then we can talk about 'moral equivalency:'

List of Islamist terrorist attacks - Wikipedia

"At least 2 million Africans--10 to 15 percent--died during the infamous "Middle Passage" across the Atlantic. Another 15 to 30 percent died during the march to or confinement along the coast. Altogether, for every 100 slaves who reached the New World, another 40 had died in Africa or during the Middle Passage."

Source:Digital History

This was on a ship of Christian believing people who believed that scripturally this was their destiny. Christians have done more harm than any faith and we are talking about throughout history. If you dispute my claim allow me to quote from the following article:

"The transatlantic trade in Africans was founded on Christianity. Religion was key in motivating Prince Henry of Portugal, later called Henry, "the Navigator" (1394-1460), to put in motion Europe's aggressive and ruthless expeditions to Africa. Henry was not only the governor of Algrave province , who managed a large economic infrastructure based on the unbridled grasp of enormous wealth from trans-Saharan commerce, but he was also the administrator of the Order of the Christ , the Portuguese successor to the Knights Templar, a famous Western military order founded in the aftermath after the first crusade at Clermont on November 27, 1095."

Christian Imperialism and the Transatlantic Slave Trade on JSTOR

 

[Jim]

Now that I think about it, when people insist on the worst kinds of Islam as the only true Islam, and the worst ways of understanding the Quran as the only true ways, they might be helping to train recruits for the very same Islam that they’re denouncing.

 

[Jim]

There could even conceivably be Muslims native to Europe and North America planning attacks in their home countries, or on their way to become fighters in the Mideast, who were radicalized by seeing that even the sworn enemies of Islam agree that the Quran is telling them to do all the most cruel and violent things that people are doing in the name of Islam.

People who are insisting that the worst kinds of Islam are the only true Islam, and the worst ways of understanding the Quran the only true ways, might want to consider how they might be helping to radicalize Muslims in their own countries.

 

[Firemorphic]

People who are insisting that the worst kinds of Islam are the only true Islam, and the worst ways of understanding the Quran the only true ways, might want to consider how they might be helping to radicalize Muslims in their own countries.

Indeed. What ends up happening is people with no knowledge of Islamic Jurisprudence go and end up essentially becoming apologists for radical extremism inevitably. The thing is, the lines of reasoning that radical extremists within their ideological cults of thought go through aren't actually taken seriously in actual Orthodox Islamic Jurisprudence (of either major tradition), literally they are a joke - albeit a very violent and dangerous joke.
Antimuslims and Islamophobes that act as apologists for these people fail to see their own folly and deeply flawed reinterpretations of Islam - which is what the various fringe, radical extremist ideologies are actually promoting within their fanatical dream-lands.
And that's putting it lightly and simply.

 

[Jim]

((People who are denouncing Islam and the Quran, everything you’re saying about Islam and the Quran might be true of some kinds of Islam and of how some Muslims, possibly even multitudes of Muslims, understand the Quran. I would also agree that the there needs to be less apologetics, and more recognition of the danger from that Islam and that kind of belief in the Quran, but I don’t think that you are taking the danger seriously enough, yourselves. Your insistence that your Islam is the only true Islam, and your understanding of what the Quran is telling Muslims to do the only true understanding, could be helping to radicalize Muslims in your own country, even in your own city, that no one would ever suspect of being Muslims. You might want to reconsider what sense it makes for you to call any Islam true Islam, and to call any understanding of the Quran the true meaning of the Quran; and you might want to reconsider how necessary it is for your purposes to do that.))

 

[Jim]

((For people raising alarms about Islam, it seems to me that your real issue is how many Muslims might be endorsing the worst kinds of Islam. However many you think it is, even it it's 99%, I don't see how it can serve your purpose to insist on that as the one and only true Islam. All that does is discredit and marginalize your message, and help radicalize more Muslims, and what sense does it make for you to be calling anything "true" Islam, or whatever you think the Quran is telling Muslims to do the one and only "true" meaning of the Quran?))

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Now that I think about it, when people insist on the worst kinds of Islam as the only true Islam, and the worst ways of understanding the Quran as the only true ways, they might be helping to train recruits for the very same Islam that they’re denouncing.

I think anyone who says that is just wrong.

First, how on earth would it be possible to say what "true islam" is, for anyone - muslims and non-muslims alike.

Secondly, I'ld just say that the "worst kinds of islam" is the islam that everybody hears about. And the same goes for most other religions. When are catholic churches primarily in the news lately? When yet another pedophile priest gets exposed. So when are muslims in the news? When they are blowing themselves up and/or posting yet another threat video or article.

Violent islam dominates the news, because violent islam dominates islam.
It's that simple. We don't hear about the nice muslim that just goes to work everyday and minds his own business. And why would we... nobody cares (and that's a good thing... it helps you live a peacefull life with nobody bothering you, when people don't care in that sense).

But when there is a very large group of people engaging in systematic hatred and violence and has the ambition of become very real existential threats, then everybody cares and should care.

I don't think anyone in his right mind, including "moderate" muslims, can deny that there is a problem with this type of islam. A very big problem. A problem that is actually a LOT bigger, and I mean HUGE, in islamic countries then it is in western countries.


Radical islamists over there have tentacles in politics, militias everywhere, etc.

There obviously is a problem within islam with these people. To deny that, is to simply refuse to ackowledge reality. And frankly, I don't really see any mentionworthy effort from the islamic community to try and solve it from within. And the solution will definatly have to come from within, because no muslim - especially not islamists - is going to accept any solutions from outside.

I just don't see any muslim accept advice from non-muslims on how to deal with their religious issues.

 

[Wandering Monk]

"At least 2 million Africans--10 to 15 percent--died during the infamous "Middle Passage" across the Atlantic. Another 15 to 30 percent died during the march to or confinement along the coast. Altogether, for every 100 slaves who reached the New World, another 40 had died in Africa or during the Middle Passage."

Source:Digital History

This was on a ship of Christian believing people who believed that scripturally this was their destiny. Christians have done more harm than any faith and we are talking about throughout history. If you dispute my claim allow me to quote from the following article:

"The transatlantic trade in Africans was founded on Christianity. Religion was key in motivating Prince Henry of Portugal, later called Henry, "the Navigator" (1394-1460), to put in motion Europe's aggressive and ruthless expeditions to Africa. Henry was not only the governor of Algrave province , who managed a large economic infrastructure based on the unbridled grasp of enormous wealth from trans-Saharan commerce, but he was also the administrator of the Order of the Christ , the Portuguese successor to the Knights Templar, a famous Western military order founded in the aftermath after the first crusade at Clermont on November 27, 1095."

Christian Imperialism and the Transatlantic Slave Trade on JSTOR

I did say 'modern times.' Great obfuscation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I did say 'modern times.' Great obfuscation.

Modern times as in what era? I could list the lynchings by white supremacist under the banner of KKK which is a self professed Christian organization which killed in the thousands. Not to mention the white Christian nationalists that killed people in houses of worship shall I dig that up to?

I know you don’t want to think there were Christian organizations that haven’t outdone Islamic extremism but Islam extremism can never catch up to modern imperial Christianity.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Modern times as in what era? I could list the lynchings by white supremacist under the banner of KKK which is a self professed Christian organization which killed in the thousands. Not to mention the white Christian nationalists that killed people in houses of worship shall I dig that up to?

I know you don’t want to think there were Christian organizations that haven’t outdone Islamic extremism but Islam extremism can never catch up to modern imperial Christianity.

Imperial Christianity. Now you shift the discussion to governments. More obfuscation.

 

[Jim]

Reviewing my thoughts on this, one issue that I think might need to be addressed is that there might be a lot more widespread approval of the worst actions and intentions in the name of Islam than people are allowing for, and to consider thoughtfully what any of us following these discussions might be able to do about that if it’s true. Another issue I see is apologetics for Islam which I see, in public discussions, as only perpetuating and intensifying animosities without doing anything to help reduce them. It might be comforting to a few people, but I think we can find better ways to comfort those people. Another issue is anti-Muslim propaganda which might be helping to train recruits for the worst kinds of Islam. I’ve posted my thoughts on what to do about that, in another thread.

 

[sooda]

Reviewing my thoughts on this, one issue that I think might need to be addressed is that there might be a lot more widespread approval of the worst actions and intentions in the name of Islam than people are allowing for, and to consider thoughtfully what any of us following these discussions might be able to do about that if it’s true. Another issue I see is apologetics for Islam which I see, in public discussions, as only perpetuating and intensifying animosities without doing anything to help reduce them. It might be comforting to a few people, but I think we can find better ways to comfort those people. Another issue is anti-Muslim propaganda which might be helping to train recruits for the worst kinds of Islam. I’ve posted my thoughts on what to do about that, in another thread.

Always begin ibodn

wtst

 

[Jim]

Always begin ibodn

wtst

Studio of Irja Biden? Tennessee State University radio station? Webb’s Tornadoes Swim Team?

 

[sooda]

I think anyone who says that is just wrong.

First, how on earth would it be possible to say what "true islam" is, for anyone - muslims and non-muslims alike.

Secondly, I'ld just say that the "worst kinds of islam" is the islam that everybody hears about. And the same goes for most other religions. When are catholic churches primarily in the news lately? When yet another pedophile priest gets exposed. So when are muslims in the news? When they are blowing themselves up and/or posting yet another threat video or article.

Violent islam dominates the news, because violent islam dominates islam.
It's that simple. We don't hear about the nice muslim that just goes to work everyday and minds his own business. And why would we... nobody cares (and that's a good thing... it helps you live a peacefull life with nobody bothering you, when people don't care in that sense).

But when there is a very large group of people engaging in systematic hatred and violence and has the ambition of become very real existential threats, then everybody cares and should care.

I don't think anyone in his right mind, including "moderate" muslims, can deny that there is a problem with this type of islam. A very big problem. A problem that is actually a LOT bigger, and I mean HUGE, in islamic countries then it is in western countries.


Radical islamists over there have tentacles in politics, militias everywhere, etc.

There obviously is a problem within islam with these people. To deny that, is to simply refuse to ackowledge reality. And frankly, I don't really see any mentionworthy effort from the islamic community to try and solve it from within. And the solution will definatly have to come from within, because no muslim - especially not islamists - is going to accept any solutions from outside.

I just don't see any muslim accept advice from non-muslims on how to deal with their religious issues.

Stop please. The people making the most noise know nothing about Islam.. They
simply spew the same hatred and ignorance they have been fed.

Imperial Christianity. Now you shift the discussion to governments. More obfuscation.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Stop please. The people making the most noise know nothing about Islam.. They simply spew the same hatred and ignorance they have been fed.

I don't care what you think they know or don't know.
It's not the point, as I said from the beginning: it doesn't matter what "true" islam is.

The fact of the matter is that there is currently a very real, very large problem with radical islamist militia's.

I don't care, nore does it matter at all, if you believe they represent "true islam" or not, no matter if you are right or wrong about that.

Neither option makes this problem go away.

One has to first acknowledge and then deal with the problem. Bickering about what "true islam" is or isn't, is completely missing the point and failing to deal with the actual problem.

 

[sooda]

I don't care what you think they know or don't know.
It's not the point, as I said from the beginning: it doesn't matter what "true" islam is.

The fact of the matter is that there is currently a very real, very large problem with radical islamist militia's.

I don't care, nore does it matter at all, if you believe they represent "true islam" or not, no matter if you are right or wrong about that.

Neither option makes this problem go away.

One has to first acknowledge and then deal with the problem. Bickering about what "true islam" is or isn't, is completely missing the point and failing to deal with the actual problem.

Muslims all over the world have repeatedly denounced the terrorists.. That's a fact.