Issues with Islam that need to be addressed

[icehorse]

Have you ever been out of the US?

Why do you think you know more than policy makers?

Not addressed to me, but I'm going to answer anyway.

I've traveled to many countries in the world, but I have not been in a Muslim majority country. @sooda , I believe the point you've been trying to make is that most Muslims are nice people. Is that correct? If so, understand that I don't deny that. My conclusion is that they are nice people DESPITE being saddled with a horrible ideology.

Why do you think you know more than policy makers?

I'm not sure which policy makers you're referring to here? If you're referring to the fact that US policy makers have made allies of Muslim majority countries that are major oil producers, I think the reason is self-evident. But maybe you're referring to something else?

 

[dybmh]

there might be a lot more of them than you think, who think that it endorses the worst kinds of Islam.

My brain simply doesn't work this way. It may be a flaw. But I prefer to judge people innocent until proven guilty.

Do you think that there are not multitudes of Muslims who think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we’ve been seeing in the name of Islam? If so, what are your reasons for thinking that?

Multitudes? Worst Excesses? No. Why don't I feel that way? Because when I ask Muslims about it, their answers feel sincere and their behavior demonstrates their good-will.

 

[Jim]

... I prefer to judge people innocent until proven guilty.

Multitudes? Worst Excesses? No. Why don't I feel that way? Because when I ask Muslims about it, their answers feel sincere and their behavior demonstrates their good-will.

Thank you. Can you think of any other reasons for not believing that multitudes of Muslims think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we’ve seen in the name of Islam? I will say that I’m not sure of that myself, but can you think of any other reasons not to believe it?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

@dybmh @The_Fisher_King
I see a very important and urgent issue here, that I see being persistently brushed aside, in response to alarms being raised about Islam:

The last time I started reading the Quran, it was to find counter-arguments against denunciations of Islam. I was looking for examples of the Quran promoting good character, and instead all I saw, page after page after page, was denouncing unbelievers and promoting war against them. It was very hard for me to see it any other way. I don’t think that anyone would deny that anyone who calls herself a Muslim is implicitly endorsing all of that as coming from God, Himself. I see a problem there that needs to be addressed much better than I’ve seen it being addressed, in any of the responses I’ve seen to alarms being raised about Islam. It all looks like wishful thinking to me.

Okay, so if this is one source of your concerns, my response is twofold. First, I don't believe everything in the Qur'an applies all of the time everywhere. Muhammad (pbuh) was sent as a Messenger both to his own people and all people. Some parts of the Message only apply to his time and society. Other parts are more universal. Second, there is no getting around the fact that disbelievers will not be treated the same way as believers. Some things that disbelievers do are just wrong (in God's Sight, so Muslims believe). And those things are to be denounced.

 

[dybmh]

Thank you. Can you think of any other reasons for not believing that multitudes of Muslims think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we’ve seen in the name of Islam? I will say that I’m not sure of that myself, but can you think of any other reasons not to believe it?

On average 1 out of 100 people in America are Muslim. If Muslims are uniformly being indoctinated to hate non-Muslims that would mean American Muslims would hate 99% of the people they encounter on day to day basis. That's a lot of hate. I would expect to see some sign of that. I don't see any signs of it at all.

The lady who cuts my hair also cuts hair for Muslim college exchange students from Saudi Arabia. The University has an accelerated 3 year engineering program that brings 10-20 students from Saudi Arabia each year. I asked her about it, and she says the students are so nice and are facinated by the experience of getting their hair cut by a woman.

She says the students are often on instagram with their friends while it's happening. They get pictures with the hair dresser before and after. Please note this hair dresser is pierced and tatooed, has multi-colored hair, and is welcomed and accepted by young Muslim men from Saudi Arabia.

If these students were indoctinated to despise non-believers they would behave differently.

I was working downtown a few years ago, and my buddy had to rush home early. I was left hauling ladders, tools, lumber, into my truck. There was no where to park. I had to block a lane of traffic while I was loading up. It was taking forever, people were honking and getting irate.

These young semetic men rushed over and started hauling lumber and tools and helped me tremendously. When I said thank you, one of these men said, Of course, Muslims always help.

I read reddit. The Islam subreddit is overwhelmingly positive. The scripture and hadith that gets quoted is universal and uplifting. There are good things Muslims do all the time that get reported on reddit. Non-believers are not spoken about.

 

[Jim]

Thank you. Can you think of any other reasons for not believing that multitudes of Muslims think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we’ve seen in the name of Islam? I will say that I’m not sure of that myself, but can you think of any other reasons not to believe it?

On average 1 out of 100 people in America are Muslim. If Muslims are uniformly being indoctinated to hate non-Muslims that would mean American Muslims would hate 99% of the people they encounter on day to day basis. That's a lot of hate. I would expect to see some sign of that. I don't see any signs of it at all.

The lady who cuts my hair also cuts hair for Muslim college exchange students from Saudi Arabia. The University has an accelerated 3 year engineering program that brings 10-20 students from Saudi Arabia each year. I asked her about it, and she says the students are so nice and are facinated by the experience of getting their hair cut by a woman.

She says the students are often on instagram with their friends while it's happening. They get pictures with the hair dresser before and after. Please note this hair dresser is pierced and tatooed, has multi-colored hair, and is welcomed and accepted by young Muslim men from Saudi Arabia.

If these students were indoctinated to despise non-believers they would behave differently.

I was working downtown a few years ago, and my buddy had to rush home early. I was left hauling ladders, tools, lumber, into my truck. There was no where to park. I had to block a lane of traffic while I was loading up. It was taking forever, people were honking and getting irate.

These young semetic men rushed over and started hauling lumber and tools and helped me tremendously. When I said thank you, one of these men said, Of course, Muslims always help.

I read reddit. The Islam subreddit is overwhelmingly positive. The scripture and hadith that gets quoted is universal and uplifting. There are good things Muslims do all the time that get reported on reddit. Non-believers are not spoken about.

Thanks. Can you think of any other reasons for not believing that multitudes of Muslims think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we’ve seen in the name of Islam?

I think now that I should have said from the start, I don't think that the danger I'm seeing in Islam is confined to Islam. I think it's in all of society, everywhere in the world, and I think it's putting all people everywhere in more danger than we've ever been in before.

By "multitudes of Muslims," I don't mean "all Muslims." "Multitudes" could be thousands, or millions. I don't know.

Besides the reasons that you've given, do you have any other reasons for not believing that there are millions of Muslims who think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we've seen in the name of Islam?

 

[Jim]

First, I don't believe everything in the Qur'an applies all of the time everywhere.

Neither do I.

I think now that I should have said from the start, I don't think that the danger I'm seeing in Islam is confined to Islam. I think it's in all of society, everywhere in the world, and I think it's putting all people everywhere in more danger than we've ever been in before.

What reasons can you think of for not believing that millions of Muslims think that the Quran endorses all the worst excesses that we've seen in the name of Islam? I'm not sure that's actually true, but what reasons can you think of for not believing it?

I'll put the question a different way. What reasons can you think of for thinking that Muslims can and will do any more to stop the atrocities that we've been seeing in the name of "Islam," than the people of Europe and North America have done to stop the atrocities that we've been seeing in the name of "freedom and democracy"?

(edit)What reasons can you think of for thinking that endless, aimless debating about it in Internet discussions will do anything to stop all that from continuing to escalate?

"Come to the cabaret."(end edit)

 

[sooda]

Not addressed to me, but I'm going to answer anyway.

I've traveled to many countries in the world, but I have not been in a Muslim majority country. @sooda , I believe the point you've been trying to make is that most Muslims are nice people. Is that correct? If so, understand that I don't deny that. My conclusion is that they are nice people DESPITE being saddled with a horrible ideology.



I'm not sure which policy makers you're referring to here? If you're referring to the fact that US policy makers have made allies of Muslim majority countries that are major oil producers, I think the reason is self-evident. But maybe you're referring to something else?

Actually the oil majors have done their best to keep the US government at arms length from Muslim oil producers.

 

[sooda]

Thanks. Can you think of any other reasons for not believing that multitudes of Muslims think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we’ve seen in the name of Islam?

I think now that I should have said from the start, I don't think that the danger I'm seeing in Islam is confined to Islam. I think it's in all of society, everywhere in the world, and I think it's putting all people everywhere in more danger than we've ever been in before.

By "multitudes of Muslims," I don't mean "all Muslims." "Multitudes" could be thousands, or millions. I don't know.

Besides the reasons that you've given, do you have any other reasons for not believing that there are millions of Muslims who think that the Quran endorses the worst excesses that we've seen in the name of Islam?

What is your experience in the Muslim world?

 

[Jim]

What is your experience in the Muslim world?

"The Muslim world"? That surprises me. I thought it was only people who are defaming Muslims that say "The Muslim world." That isn't what I thought you were doing here.

I've never lived in any Muslim society if that's what you mean. I've read the Quran, and some stories about Muhammad and Islam. I spent some time for a while in a Muslim group on Facebook. I've looked at some Muslim websites and blogs. I've grieved with Muslims over what happened at Chapel Hill, and at Karbila. I'm grieving again right now.

 

[sooda]

"The Muslim world"? That surprises me. I thought it was only people who are defaming Muslims that say "The Muslim world." That isn't what I thought you were doing here.

I've never lived in any Muslim society if that's what you mean. I've read the Quran, and some stories about Muhammad and Islam. I spent some time for a while in a Muslim group on Facebook. I've looked at some Muslim websites and blogs. I've grieved with Muslims over what happened at Chapel Hill, and at Karbila. I'm grieving again right now.

I have lived in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Libya.. and traveled extensively in Lebanon, Iran and Syria. They are all different, but they are all largely Muslim.

 

[Jim]

Part of the danger I'm seeing which I think is in all of society, everywhere in the world, including in Islam, is in the imaginary lines that people draw between themselves and others, defined by ideology, and the ways that they think and feel about people across those lines. I see no reason to think that Muslims are any different from other people, in that way. That's why I'm guessing that multitudes of them can be fooled into thinking that the Quran endorses the atrocities that we've been seeing in the name of "Islam," just as multitudes of people in Europe and North America can continue to be fooled into thinking that it's right for them to treat Muslims, and everyone outside of Europe and North America, and even multitudes of born citizens in their own countries, in the cruel, brutal and treacherous ways they do.

 

[Firemorphic]

It heartens me a little bit when you say "the regular Muslims who do not embody the totalitarian ideals", and I agree that there many Muslims of that ilk. The data I've seen says that about half are as you say they are. But I'm not sure how you can declare that your half are the "regular" Muslims?

Well not just Shi'ites no, Sunnis too.

When you operate from a preconceived bias towards what Islam is supposed to represent (and what your specificity of topical focus is in determining that), it is predictable that someone like you would see most Muslims as exceptions to what Islam itself is.

You know, I am sitting on several pieces of info here that I'm waiting for you to bring up but you never do (ones that would get you credibility as a historically well-read individual in the conversation). You always coming back to diagnosing the causes of such atrocities as terrorism to the origins and foundations of Islam (and without even displaying much of an understanding on it from either Sunni or Shia points of view), which are commonalities within diversity - rather than looking deeper into the trends in relatively modern history that lead to terrorist organisations. I'm waiting for you to have the light-bulb moment yourself without having to spell it out myself.
Your problems with "Islamic" governments is a political thing and I can understand where you come from there.

Many critics of Islam see correlations between the messages in the Quran and the biographies of Muhammad and how Muslims believe and behave in the world. Seeing this correlation is hardly my invention. And there is a lot of evidence that supports this correlation. But if it makes you happy, I could agree that this correlation is not yet a scientific law.

Anyone can be a critic of anything, this particular "criticism" is fallacious at best. If you had the time, interest or motivation to dive deeper into genuine Islam to get a grounding in what is what as I keep telling you, then perhaps you wouldn't have such a hard time distinguishing one from the other.

I'll ask you again what I asked you a week ago. Do you value accountability?

 

[icehorse]

You always coming back to diagnosing the causes of such atrocities as terrorism to the origins and foundations of Islam

You talking to me? When did I ever bring up terrorism? Maybe you're misremembering who said what here?

When you operate from a preconceived bias towards what Islam is supposed to represent (and what your specificity of topical focus is in determining that), it is predictable that someone like you would see most Muslims as exceptions to what Islam itself is.

I've never claimed to know what Islam is supposed to represent. One very good reason for that is that I don't think you or anyone else has a handle on that. I'm sure you have an opinion, and that some people agree with you. But I'm also sure that others have different opinions. Why on earth would I suspect that your opinion should be supreme?

Anyone can be a critic of anything, this particular "criticism" is fallacious at best. If you had the time, interest or motivation to dive deeper into genuine Islam to get a grounding in what is what as I keep telling you, then perhaps you wouldn't have such a hard time distinguishing one from the other.

I understand that you think my criticism is fallacious. But frankly, since you're attributing things to me that I haven't said, I'm not so sure you know which criticisms of Islam are mine in this thread.

And once again, I'm sure that there are millions of Muslims who would disagree with your definition of "genuine Islam".

I'll ask you again what I asked you a week ago. Do you value accountability?

I don't recall you asking me that, but perhaps you did. If you remind me the context of the question I will be happy to answer. In the meantime, in general yes, I do value accountability.

 

[icehorse]

The University has an accelerated 3 year engineering program that brings 10-20 students from Saudi Arabia each year. I asked her about it, and she says the students are so nice and are facinated by the experience of getting their hair cut by a woman.

You clearly have your finger on the pulse of the planet. I feed so relieved (not), by your anecdotes, phew!

 

[Jim]

I have lived in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Libya.. and traveled extensively in Lebanon, Iran and Syria. They are all different, but they are all largely Muslim.

I wish I could stay longer, for us to get to know each other better. I’m afraid that what I did in this thread might have given you some false ideas about me.

 

[sooda]

Part of the danger I'm seeing which I think is in all of society, everywhere in the world, including in Islam, is in the imaginary lines that people draw between themselves and others, defined by ideology, and the ways that they think and feel about people across those lines. I see no reason to think that Muslims are any different from other people, in that way. That's why I'm guessing that multitudes of them can be fooled into thinking that the Quran endorses the atrocities that we've been seeing in the name of "Islam," just as multitudes of people in Europe and North America can continue to be fooled into thinking that it's right for them to treat Muslims, and everyone outside of Europe and North America, and even multitudes of born citizens in their own countries, in the cruel, brutal and treacherous ways they do.

Most Muslims KNOW that the Koran does NOT endorse atrocities in the name of Islam.

 

[Jim]

@dybmh @The_Fisher_King @icehorse Thank you for helping me with my questions.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Neither do I.

I think now that I should have said from the start, I don't think that the danger I'm seeing in Islam is confined to Islam. I think it's in all of society, everywhere in the world, and I think it's putting all people everywhere in more danger than we've ever been in before.

What reasons can you think of for not believing that millions of Muslims think that the Quran endorses all the worst excesses that we've seen in the name of Islam? I'm not sure that's actually true, but what reasons can you think of for not believing it?

I'll put the question a different way. What reasons can you think of for thinking that Muslims can and will do any more to stop the atrocities that we've been seeing in the name of "Islam," than the people of Europe and North America have done to stop the atrocities that we've been seeing in the name of "freedom and democracy"?

(edit)What reasons can you think of for thinking that endless, aimless debating about it in Internet discussions will do anything to stop all that from continuing to escalate?

"Come to the cabaret."(end edit)

It would be very helpful if you clearly said what danger you're seeing in Islam/all society all over the world. I'm struggling a bit to understand that.

I'm also struggling a bit to understand where you're coming from with your above questions. It seems like you're saying 'this is all rather pointless', but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I now see that you have posted a clear articulation of the dangers you're seeing all around you.

 

[icehorse]

Most Muslims KNOW that the Koran does NOT endorse atrocities in the name of Islam.

@Jim

I think it would be useful to define the term "atrocity" for the purposes of this thread. My guess is that there are at least two, and probably more, definitions floating around the conversation at this point.

I for one tend to exclude terrorist acts from these conversations. Even though they happen too often, they are statistically rare, and I don't think anyone disagrees about them.

To me, atrocities include day to day misogyny, homiphobia, anti-semitism, and so on, and I expect that not everyone here would agree that those behaviors are atrocities.