Is God a "deadbeat dad"?

[nPeace]

What a loving father, who is fair, and just.
Unlike today, where one can commit a serious crime, and get away scotch free.... not so, with our loving father.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you.
Where is the love, if there is no justice? There is none.

 

[Eddi]

Oh, so an unruly child that just wants to get his way huh. We call those snobs, don't we?
You want to sniff pot, and rape your sister and not expect to be punished for it?
Let's see which country you can go live in.... Ummm thinking.... I can't think of one, can you?
If you do, I think that's a good place for those kind to live.
God is not unjust.

I think it's a shame that we don't have justice in most of the world.

OK, now you're attacking a straw-man

Of course people deserve punishment for doing evil things

I never said they didn't

And God has a right to enforce a moral code

I'd certainly hope God would punish someone who raped their sister

He's just not parental, that's my claim

With the example of rapists: lock them up whilst they're alive, and once they die let God deal with them

 

[nPeace]

Returning to the central issue of my original post: I do not think God is parental. That is my central point and I haven't seen anything come up in this thread that will make me change that view. I still believe that if we are to judge God as a dad then he falls short, and it is better to think of him in different terms.

Yes, parents have rules their children must follow, of course. And of course, a guest in anyone else's house must respect the rules of the host and of course people have a right to defend their homes. And I absolutely agree that a mother and father have the right to punish their non-adult children, within certain limits.

But we're talking about life and death here, parents don't cosign their children to oblivion if they disagree with certain things, or no longer want a relationship. If little Timmy does something naughty his mother and father don't starve him to death, do they? And they don't extinguish his consciousness for all eternity, do they? Again, social services would get involved and there'd be a prosecution.

Besides, I don't know about you but I've been talking about adult children, who said anything about toddlers???

As for "laws" - that doesn't sound very personal or parental to me.

I say this: You can have God the lawgiver or you can have God the dad - you cannot have both

Thing is. nothing in your thread shows that God is not parental.
You made an argument. It was countered.
If you are not able to refute the counter argument, then your argument seem like a complaint - not a sound argument.
I can complain to my dad, but if he shows that my complaint is childish, then I can go in a corner and sulk all day long, or get on with my life.

 

[Eddi]

@Eddi by the way, this is God's earth. He gets to clean the scum off of it.
LA is a mess, so is many parts of the world. they can't even get rid of ISIS.
Just wait till God starts cleaning. There won't be a piece of rot left - including snobby children.

I've heard worse from other Christians, believe me

But to return to the issue - is God a lawmaker or a parent???? He cannot be both

 

[nPeace]

OK, now you're attacking a straw-man

Of course people deserve punishment for doing evil things

I never said they didn't

And God has a right to enforce a moral code

I'd certainly hope God would punish someone who raped their sister

He's just not parental, that's my claim

With the example of rapists: lock them up whilst they're alive, and once they die let God deal with them

You seem to be making comparisons that don't mesh.

 

[nPeace]

I've heard worse from other Christians, believe me

But to return to the issue - is God a lawmaker or a parent???? He cannot be both

Tell me why he can't be both.
A parent is not a universal king.
So what point are you really making?

 

[Eddi]

Thing is. nothing in your thread shows that God is not parental.
You made an argument. It was countered.
If you are not able to refute the counter argument, then your argument seem like a complaint - not a sound argument.
I can complain to my dad, but if he shows that my complaint is childish, then I can go in a corner and sulk all day long, or get on with my life.

OK, so you want arguments?

Premise 1: A parental person (mother, father, guardian) would never punish their adult children for turning their back on them. It may upset them but they wouldn't seek to extinguish them for all eternity.

Premise 2: Your God punishes his adult children for turning their backs on him - by snuffing them out for all eternity

Conclusion: Your God is not parental

This is a sound argument

And I'm now using the term "Your God" because the God I believe in would never punish his adult children for turning their backs on him as they are adults and deserve to be able to go their own way. To me God is not much of a parent, but neither is he a tyrant

 

[nPeace]

OK, so you want arguments?

Premise 1: A parental person (mother, father, guardian) would never punish their adult children for turning their back on them. It may upset them but they wouldn't seek to extinguish them for all eternity.

Premise 2: Your God punishes his adult children for turning their backs on him - by snuffing them out for all eternity

Conclusion: Your God is not parental

This is a sound argument

And I'm now using the term "Your God" because the God I believe in would never punish his adult children for turning their backs on him as they are adults and deserve to be able to go their own way. To me God is not much of a parent, but neither is he a tyrant

Good. Thank you for making you point clear.
Is the mother, father, guardian responsible for the life of everyone on earth, and the future of the planet?
God is. Therefore your comparison seems to me, way out of place. Agreed?

 

[Eddi]

Tell me why he can't be both.
A parent is not a universal king.
So what point are you really making?

Because laws are impersonal whereas the rules laid down by a parent are personal - rules and laws are different

Parents make rules for their children out of love, so that they grow up to be good people (and aren't pains in the arse)

On the other hand, laws are made by the state to govern the conduct of those who live in a society - there is no love involved, only notions regarding the public good

The God you believe in enforces laws - as breaking these brings around a punishment whereas breaking a parental rule should bring about a correction, so their kids learn a lesson

Punishing = inpersonal
Correction = personal

That's how I see it

Maybe you and I have different views regarding parenting?

 

[Eddi]

Good. Thank you for making you point clear.
Is the mother, father, guardian responsible for the life of everyone on earth, and the future of the planet?
God is. Therefore your comparison seems to me, way out of place. Agreed?

Is a mother, father, or guardian responsible for the life of everyone on Earth and the future of the planet?

Obviously not.

But should the future of the planet be shaped by a code of laws? Certainly.

Is God responsible for bringing up individual children to be good people in a compassionate but firm way? No. I'd say he's not. I'd say that's the job of our human parents. But granted, this could be guided by teaching one's children religion and ethics. Raising children should be done with rules and compassion, not laws and punishment, whereas ordering the Earth should be done with laws and punishment.

 

[nPeace]

Is a mother, father, or guardian responsible for the life of everyone on Earth and the future of the planet?

Obviously not.

Good

But should the future of the planet be shaped by a code of laws? Certainly.

Good. Could you please explain why?

Is God responsible for bringing up individual children to be good people in a compassionate but firm way? No. I'd say he's not. I'd say that's the job of our human parents. But granted, this could be guided by teaching one's children religion and ethics. Raising children should be done with rules and compassion, not laws and punishment, whereas ordering the Earth should be done with laws and punishment.

Could you help me understand how parents can raise their children with their own rules independent of their heavenly parent?
In that case, God is not a parent, but a great great great greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat grand parent, so that would make him not responsible for those lives. Agreed?

 

[1213]

....But is he really like a dad to us? Does he care? Should we love him? Does he even love us? Is he even interested in us?

If so, how has he ever shown it???
...

According to the Bible, not all are God’s children. Those who are born of His Spirit are.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

And that is simply the reason why some could call God their Father.

Reason why I think He is interested in us and cares of us is that He has given us the commandments how to live well and also the promises and has given everything we have. To me God is the one who has taught what true love really means. He has been patient and caring all the time, even though I don’t deserve anything that I have.

 

[Eddi]

Good. Could you please explain why?

Well, that's a big question! For two reasons. I'd say because 1) some things are intrinsically right and wrong and so should be forbidden or encouraged by a body of laws (e.g. murder, rape, robbery) and 2) that a society without laws could not function and no one could be happy, free, safe, or prosperous. So ethics and utility.

Could you help me understand how parents can raise their children with their own rules independent of their heavenly parent?

Some tentative thoughts on that matter: Because their own values may merely coincide with those of the heavenly parent, rather than actually originate from him? They are thus on one hand way raised independently from the commandments of the heavenly parent but on the other in a way that's consistent with his teachings? Surely some things are wrong because they are wrong, rather than because they are against God's opinions? Just some thoughts.

God is not a parent, but a great great great greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat grand parent, so that would make him not responsible for those lives. Agreed?

You know what? I could accept that God is like a great great great grandparent - because on one hand he is (ultimately) responsible for the existence of his children but on the other hand does not have a parental relationship with them - but does have an interest in them as they are his descendants

I could actually live with "our great great great grandparent who art in heaven"

(Edit: the difference is one of distance and detachment)

 

[nPeace]

Well, that's a big question! For two reasons. I'd say because 1) some things are intrinsically right and wrong and so should be forbidden or encouraged by a body of laws (e.g. murder, rape, robbery) and 2) that a society without laws could not function and no one could be happy, free, safe, or prosperous. So ethics and utility.

Cool. So because God is maker of all things, he is responsible for establishing universal order, and righteousness - hence laws.

Some tentative thoughts on that matter

: Because their own values may merely coincide with those of the heavenly parent, rather than actually originate from him? They are thus on one hand way raised independently from the commandments of the heavenly parent but on the other in a way that's consistent with his teachings? Surely some things are wrong because they are wrong, rather than because they are against God's opinions? Just some thoughts.

Appreciate your thoughts.
As you stated above - the two points you made, you seem to agree that a universal law is ideal, and would work for universal good.
Therefore parents who themselves are children, would do well to listen to their heavenly father for giving their children guidance that can work for universal good.
Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: [a]Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; 7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.
Footnotes:

1. Deuteronomy 6:4 Or, Jehovah our God, Jehovah is one. Or, Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one. Or, Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone

You know what? I could accept that God is like a great great great grandparent - because on one hand he is (ultimately) responsible for the existence of his children but on the other hand does not have a parental relationship with them - but does have an interest in them as they are his descendants

I could actually live with "our great great great grandparent who art in heaven"

(Edit: the difference is one of distance and detachment)

Hmmm. My words look different to how you quoted them.
In that case, God is not a parent, but a great great great greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat grand parent, so that would make him not responsible for those lives. Agreed?
Ah, what a difference that makes.

Based on what I have read, if we follow the Bible, it is important that we acknowledge that the creator is not a great granddaddy - although he can play the role, perfectly if he willed. He is the universal father.
Jesus said this, when he taught his disciples to pray. Matthew 6

Why is that?
(Psalm 127:3) Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruit of the womb is a reward.
According to scripture, children are lent to their parents, but they are really Jehovah's children. The DNA is from him, you see. Without it, you would not be here, nor I.

So we are all God's children... or are we?
Not quite. @1213 made a good point. Consider what Jesus said here John 8:44, and consider what John said here.1 John 3:1-12 - particularly verse 10.
So if anyone has a difficulty referring to God as their father, the scriptures highlight an obvious reason.

 

[Eddi]

Cool. So because God is maker of all things, he is responsible for establishing universal order, and righteousness - hence laws.



Appreciate your thoughts.
As you stated above - the two points you made, you seem to agree that a universal law is ideal, and would work for universal good.
Therefore parents who themselves are children, would do well to listen to their heavenly father for giving their children guidance that can work for universal good.
Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: [a]Jehovah our God is one Jehovah: 5 and thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be upon thy heart; 7 and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes. 9 And thou shalt write them upon the door-posts of thy house, and upon thy gates.
Footnotes:

1. Deuteronomy 6:4 Or, Jehovah our God, Jehovah is one. Or, Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one. Or, Jehovah is our God, Jehovah alone

Hmmm. My words look different to how you quoted them.
In that case, God is not a parent, but a great great great greeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeat grand parent, so that would make him not responsible for those lives. Agreed?
Ah, what a difference that makes.

Based on what I have read, if we follow the Bible, it is important that we acknowledge that the creator is not a great granddaddy - although he can play the role, perfectly if he willed. He is the universal father.
Jesus said this, when he taught his disciples to pray. Matthew 6

Why is that?
(Psalm 127:3) Look! Sons are an inheritance from Jehovah; The fruit of the womb is a reward.
According to scripture, children are lent to their parents, but they are really Jehovah's children. The DNA is from him, you see. Without it, you would not be here, nor I.

So we are all God's children... or are we?
Not quite. @1213 made a good point. Consider what Jesus said here John 8:44, and consider what John said here.1 John 3:1-12 - particularly verse 10.
So if anyone has a difficulty referring to God as their father, the scriptures highlight an obvious reason.

I'm getting tired now, it's been a long day but I feel I've had a productive evening, I'm not going to argue with you over what scripture says...

You have just mentioned "the universal father", I like that phrase, I would say that God is a "universal father", just not a "personal father"...

I believe he didn't create us (i.e. us humans, say me and you) directly but I acknowledge that he created us indirectly, that he is responsible for the original humans coming into existence - I believe that parenthood (as we understand it) has to involve direct creation, not indirect creation, hence God is I'd say an indirect parent, rather than a direct parent as he created us indirectly, via our ancestors

I'm sticking to "our great great great grandfather who are in heaven" - in some families children are raised by their grandparents, and the role they play is parental, but not literally parental. And of course, our grandparents brought about our parents into existence and are therefore responsible for us being here, but indirectly

Is God an indirect parent? Yes. Is he a direct parent? No. Does this matter? I don't think it does...

But is he a dad? No, but possibly a father-figure for us to look up to. And of course, many people have a better relationship with him than they do their mother and/or father, which I think is a very sad thing

 

[shunyadragon]

My understanding is that it's central to Christianity - and certainly to other Abrahamic faiths

That without God's grace you go to hell for your sins, hence the need for salvation - is that not right???

Sin, damnation, grace and salvation are all central to Christianity, are they not???

Not in the Baha'i Faith the latest Abrahamic religion.

God is not a chess player . . .
with the white pieces.
God is the sea and . . .
we are the fishes.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

The Dude Abides...

 

[Etritonakin]

This thread may sound a little facetious at first but I think it raises a valid theological point for those of us who believe in God so please, bear with me:

It is said that any physically mature male can father a child but that only a real man can be a dad – by loving, nurturing and supporting his children and taking responsibility for their upbringing.

In short, “dad” and “father” are different – the former loves and nurtures whereas the latter merely creates and plays little or no further role in the life or lives he is responsible for creating.

I'd say a “dad” is a kind of father but not all fathers are dads. The key difference is I think love and dedication.

For instance Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker’s father, but not his dad.

Any man can get a woman pregnant, that’s easy

But being a dad to one’s offspring is something else

But what about “our father who art in heaven”?

Every Sunday I attend a church service but choose keep quite when the Lord's Prayer is said, for numerous reasons, some of which can be found in this post

To call him “father” is to imply he is somehow parental, that he is parental towards those whose existence he is responsible for

I'd say "deadbeat dad" is a good term for someone who is expected to be a dad but whose actions fall short - I believe this term can be applied to God

He may be our father in the sense that he is responsible for our creation…

But is he really like a dad to us? Does he care? Should we love him? Does he even love us? Is he even interested in us?

If so, how has he ever shown it???

Are our relationships with him really personal relationships, or are we all just parts of some great project he’s been working on?

In my experience there is no evidence that he wants to be a dad to us

Although he’s omnipresent he feels quite distant to me

And if he doesn’t care then why should we listen to him, or even respect him? Never mind worship him or pray to him!

How can one cultivate a relationship with someone who remains so distant? I have a distant relationship with my own father so I know a distant father-son relationship when I see one

Jesus famously called God “daddy” in Aramaic

But is it possible for us to have a dad-child relationship with God? Or is he just our father, and nothing more? Like Darth Vader is to Luke?

It is said that “God is love” but I can’t see that to be the case

I say that either God doesn’t exist or he does and he’s not paternal!

"Parent" is not the word I'd use to describe him

And look at all the suffering there is in the world – either he doesn’t care at all or he has favourites amongst his children! None of these are parental.

If he is not a parent to us then why keep calling him “our father who art in heaven”, if our relationship to him is not analogous to the relationship between a parent and their children?

I think it is clear that he is our father but not our dad - he is therefore a rubbish parent to such an extent that he cannot be called a parent at all

What then is our relationship with God? I think we owe him thanks for creating us and maintaining the universe but I wouldn’t call him a parent as that implies a personal and parental relationship characterised by love – which I don’t think there is.

It is said, “God is love”. He may very well have benign intentions for his creation, but is there really any love involved?

True, there are many different kinds of love, so maybe he does love us in some ineffable way we can never hope to understand?

I can feel a degree of impersonal and detached concern from God but I cannot feel any love.

Perhaps calling him “Lord” is more apt?

A benign Great Architect - as opposed to a loving parent???

I think that's a better model than "parent"

"Our Lord who are in heaven"???

So... do you think God is a deadbeat dad?

No

"Prodigal Son"

God has always been as he should -given as he should -but allowed us to learn to decide correctly.

 

[Unguru]

N/A.

God is not a father, nor mother, God is both and none.

Calling God a "deadbeat dad" is more useless than Atheism itself.

 

[Hawkins]

So... do you think God is a deadbeat dad?

All I can tell is that you adapted a wrong concept about what it is.

A father has only one object to apply his love, it's he's sons and daughters but not someone else. Christianity is about God as a Shepherd and His sheep, not the wolves or their wannabes.
God is harsh to His chosen people Israel such that they can be trained up to be His faithful messengers to carry forward His Bible across history to reach today's humans for His today's sheep to be saved.