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Featured Is God a "deadbeat dad"?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, May 6, 2019.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi a very naughty boy

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    This thread may sound a little facetious at first but I think it raises a valid theological point for those of us who believe in God so please, bear with me:

    It is said that any physically mature male can father a child but that only a real man can be a dad – by loving, nurturing and supporting his children and taking responsibility for their upbringing.

    In short, “dad” and “father” are different – the former loves and nurtures whereas the latter merely creates and plays little or no further role in the life or lives he is responsible for creating.

    I'd say a “dad” is a kind of father but not all fathers are dads. The key difference is I think love and dedication.

    For instance Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker’s father, but not his dad.

    Any man can get a woman pregnant, that’s easy

    But being a dad to one’s offspring is something else

    But what about “our father who art in heaven”?

    Every Sunday I attend a church service but choose keep quite when the Lord's Prayer is said, for numerous reasons, some of which can be found in this post

    To call him “father” is to imply he is somehow parental, that he is parental towards those whose existence he is responsible for

    I'd say "deadbeat dad" is a good term for someone who is expected to be a dad but whose actions fall short - I believe this term can be applied to God

    He may be our father in the sense that he is responsible for our creation…

    But is he really like a dad to us? Does he care? Should we love him? Does he even love us? Is he even interested in us?

    If so, how has he ever shown it???

    Are our relationships with him really personal relationships, or are we all just parts of some great project he’s been working on?

    In my experience there is no evidence that he wants to be a dad to us

    Although he’s omnipresent he feels quite distant to me

    And if he doesn’t care then why should we listen to him, or even respect him? Never mind worship him or pray to him!

    How can one cultivate a relationship with someone who remains so distant? I have a distant relationship with my own father so I know a distant father-son relationship when I see one

    Jesus famously called God “daddy” in Aramaic

    But is it possible for us to have a dad-child relationship with God? Or is he just our father, and nothing more? Like Darth Vader is to Luke?

    It is said that “God is love” but I can’t see that to be the case

    I say that either God doesn’t exist or he does and he’s not paternal!

    "Parent" is not the word I'd use to describe him

    And look at all the suffering there is in the world – either he doesn’t care at all or he has favourites amongst his children! None of these are parental.

    If he is not a parent to us then why keep calling him “our father who art in heaven”, if our relationship to him is not analogous to the relationship between a parent and their children?

    I think it is clear that he is our father but not our dad - he is therefore a rubbish parent to such an extent that he cannot be called a parent at all

    What then is our relationship with God? I think we owe him thanks for creating us and maintaining the universe but I wouldn’t call him a parent as that implies a personal and parental relationship characterised by love – which I don’t think there is.

    It is said, “God is love”. He may very well have benign intentions for his creation, but is there really any love involved?

    True, there are many different kinds of love, so maybe he does love us in some ineffable way we can never hope to understand?


    I can feel a degree of impersonal and detached concern from God but I cannot feel any love.

    Perhaps calling him “Lord” is more apt?

    A benign Great Architect - as opposed to a loving parent???

    I think that's a better model than "parent"

    "Our Lord who are in heaven"???

    So... do you think God is a deadbeat dad?
     
    #1 Eddi, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  2. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    As I see it, God wants obedience and if you give it to him he will reward you, if not he will punish you. Even a deadbeat dad or father wouldn't do that, so at least to me I think he is worse.

    And the way to show your love of God is to keep his commandments.

    Now Im quite sure a lot will disagree with me. :)

    But looking at the bible.
    --------------------------------------
    1. John 5.
    1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

    1 John 2
    3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

    Psalm 1
    1 Blessed is the one
    who does not walk in step with the wicked
    or stand in the way that sinners take
    or sit in the company of mockers,
    2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
    and who meditates on his law day and night.


    Psalm 119
    1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless,
    who walk according to the law of the Lord.
    2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes
    and seek him with all their heart—
    3 they do no wrong
    but follow his ways.

    Matthew 5;
    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 7;
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
    -------------------------

    So by doing the will(law) of God, you will be rewarded, the rest will be punished.

    -------------------------
    Psalm 1;
    6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
    but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

    Matthew 7;
    23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


    For some reason which I have never really figured out, people seem to believe that with Jesus death the law is no longer in effect. But I think he makes it rather clear under which circumstances the law is abolished, when he say:

    "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

    But for some reason, people believe Paul more than Jesus, which is strange to me, as I thought people liked/trusted Jesus more.
     
    #2 Nimos, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  3. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If you have been taught all of that in church, may I suggest that you get rid of the church and find you father. The church has lost him. o_O

    God has many qualities but the Bible says that "God IS love".....he epitomizes what love is.....everything he does it motivated by love. This is "agape".....do you know what agape means?

    To even suggest what you have written here is not only extremely disrespectful, but it screams to the world that you don't have a clue who God is and what relationship he has with his children.....deadbeat dad?....or deadbeat church? :facepalm:
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Read that scripture again......the law was in force until Jesus accomplished his mission.

    John 19:28-30....(Strongs NASB)
    ...."After G3326 this, G3778 Jesus, G2424 knowing G6063 that all G3956 things G3956 had already G2235 been accomplished G5055.....when G3753 Jesus G2424 had received G2983 the sour G3690 wine, G3690 He said, G3004 “It is finished!” G5055 And He bowed G2827 His head G2776 and gave G3860 up His spirit. G4151."

    The reason is right there in plain sight.....the law ended when Christ had accomplished his mission as Messiah.

    Galatians 3:13....
    " Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

    Romans 10:4...
    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
     
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  5. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    I will grant you that it actually say that. However and it might sound like a dodge, but something seems a bit off with the story. The amount of details here in regards to exactly, what was said seems a bit wrong and very purposeful and to me slightly unreliable compared to Mark, Luke and Matthew.

    For instant:

    8 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

    11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

    He knew exactly what they talked about when they were inside the palace? :confused:

    Looking at when the text is dated there seem to be some confusion when it comes to when it were written and that it were not all done as one, but in 2-3 pieces based on Wiki at least and years apart.

    But fair enough, it does say it. That is true. Even though, it seems difference than what Jesus is saying when he say "until heaven and earth disappears", because it didn't, the day went on as normal the next day and forth.

    Which seems to fit with Revelation 21:1 better I think:

    A New Heaven and a New Earth
    Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
     
    #5 Nimos, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  6. dingdao

    dingdao The eternal Tao cannot be told - Tao Te Ching

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    Yea, I got a beef with the OLD MAN, myself.

    Nimos said
    "A New Heaven and a New Earth
    Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

    So, as long as we have oceans, we're on 'good ole earth'.
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Humans are the deadbeats living clinging to ancient paradigms and blaming God.
     
    #7 shunyadragon, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No.
    If your children abandoned you, that is, left you entirely, how can you do more than make provisions that you hope will benefit them.
    How can you stop them from running under a bus, or stealing a TV from Best Buy, or...
    They are on their own, are they not? They chose that, you didn't. What are you going to do... grab them by the hair and drag them kicking and screaming... and then padlock them in the basement?
    Which do you think is the better father - One who does the afore mentioned, or one who allows the child to choose their own path, even if it hurts, while leaving the door opened for any who would return?
    I don't know about you, but I prefer a dad who fits the former, than one who would lock me in the basement, so that he can have me, against my will.

    The God described in the Bible is like the former. He lovingly makes provision for all his children, including the wayward, and he blesses them greatly - adding no pain to them. (Proverbs 10:22)

    ...but have you ever heard of ungrateful children?
    When we take a good look around, that's exactly what we see, and they point their finger at dad.
    [​IMG]

    Could it be that people think they know what love is, but have a warped misguided view of it?

    I have seen parents and grandparents repeatedly tell a child to do something, or not do something, and the child repeatedly says, "alright" then refuses to obey - every... single... time...Is that love?
    If you love someone you care about what concerns them, and it is not difficult for you to obey... as long as they have not told you to do something terrible - like skin a cat.

    The father in heaven knows, and understands what love is. millions don't because they think that their human wisdom, is somehow above God's - as evidently is outlined in the Bible, so they refuse such guidance.
    Apparently some often do not understand the connection between love, justice, and righteousness, so when God does something they consider drastic, they object... until someone rapes and torture some toddler, and then they start screaming for the steamroller.

    God is good. We aren't.
     
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  9. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    more of slacker. download (7).jpeg
     
  10. Eddi

    Eddi a very naughty boy

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    I have not been taught this in any church, it is a conclusion I have reached by myself

    I know that he is not parental and that the relationship he has with his "children" is not parental either

    Perhaps he's more of an uncle???

    Yes, I'd say he is more avuncular than he is paternal...
     
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  11. Eddi

    Eddi a very naughty boy

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    But doesn't the God of the bible also send his children to an eternity in hell if they break his rules? Or don't believe in him? Sounds pretty harsh to me

    I think if a human parent did that to their kids then social services would get involved
     
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  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Nowhere have I seen that in the Bible. So perhaps someone lied on dad, and some of his children believed the liar, and instead of asking for clarification, they simply started pelting stones at their dad. How disrespectful! Would you not consider such children rude, and ungrateful?
     
  13. Eddi

    Eddi a very naughty boy

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    My understanding is that it's central to Christianity - and certainly to other Abrahamic faiths

    That without God's grace you go to hell for your sins, hence the need for salvation - is that not right???

    Sin, damnation, grace and salvation are all central to Christianity, are they not???
     
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You would have to point it out in scripture.
    My understanding is that the wages of sin is death - D e a t h - not eternal suffering.
    Therefore, all sinners, that is, all who are Adam's offspring - which does not exclude myself - will die and rot in the earth. However, the same scripture says, but the gift of God, is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord. Romans 6:23

    A gift from God!? Eternal life!? My father is offering me a gift of life that will last forever? How can I refuse? I say, give me that life dad.
    My dad says to me, "Well son, you need to do something."
    "What dad? What? I'll do it!"
    "Well son, a high price was paid to redeem life that was lost. so I need you to appreciate the value of the life that was sacrificed in order to make possible the life that you can gain."
    That's it? You mean, a life was given in order for me to gain eternal life?
    "Yes son" John 3:16
    Dad. That... I don't know what to say... You really love us You gave your only begotten son, for us... You mean even though I did so much foolishness...???
    Dad. You are the greatest. you really do love me. What a sacrifice. Dad, you are awesome! I'll do it. I'll exercise faith in your son. I'll live my life in obedience to your regulations... because they are good for me.

    What a contrast that son is, to those ungrateful one. Would you not agree?

    From what I see there, there is nothing that says the Almighty will torture his children forever. Jeremiah 7:31 They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’
    Whoever told that lie, obviously told it for a reason, and it worked. He turned many people away from their loving father, so that they will not get life... because he will not get life, and he hates his father. So the more God-haters, the merrier. John 8:44

    I see - sin with the result being death; redemption through Christ's sacrifice; salvation - to life in a restored earth.

    @Eddi by the way, what is central to Christianity is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
     
  15. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    Yes that is definitely possible.

    They are kids, what do you expect? Half the stuff they do makes little sense. I were at my nephews birthday and him and his brother couldn't agree who should play with a freaking card box.

    Half the time you ask them a question, they might not "notice" it as they are more interested in five other things at the same time, which are much more important than to listen to their parents. It have nothing to do with love. And of course kids will "rebel" against their parents as they try new limits and become more independent, I would expect nothing less.

    If kids are screwed up, its either because there are something psychical wrong with them, which is not their own fault or its some psychologically issue, most likely due to stuff that happens in the environment they grew up in, like parents drinking, arguing with each other, poor influence from friends, overprotecting parents or straight up poor parenting of people not knowing how to raise a child.


    I might not share your view or other believers view on what love is, but threats of violence and death is not part of what love is in my book. I could understand it, if it were as a warning, because someone else or something would hurt your child that you would warn them against doing something. But that is not the case in the bible as the threats come from God.
     
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  16. Eddi

    Eddi a very naughty boy

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    Oh great, so he'll snuff us out if we don't believe in him or don't care to jump through his hoops, how lovely of him

    In one of your earlier posts you contrasted a father who locks his kids in a basement with one who lets them chose their own paths... it doesn't seem to me like God is letting us chose our own paths if disobeying him means death, that sounds quite coercive to me
     
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  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    We are not living in a world of toddlers are we?

    [​IMG]

    So as children, we are in a position to accept responsibility for what we do.
    Do you think the law is tyrannical?

    Do you think that there should be no laws saying that "under section 000xxx one involed in XYZ should be ABC if found guilty?
    Do you think God is wrong for having such laws?

    Also, are you wrong for having rules in your house, So if someone takes it upon themselves to ruin your house, you have the right to remove them?
    Please... show me the difference, where God is concerned.
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Oh, so an unruly child that just wants to get his way huh. We call those snobs, don't we?
    You want to sniff pot, and rape your sister and not expect to be punished for it?
    Let's see which country you can go live in.... Ummm thinking.... I can't think of one, can you?
    If you do, I think that's a good place for those kind to live.
    God is not unjust.

    I think it's a shame that we don't have justice in most of the world.
     
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Eddi by the way, this is God's earth. He gets to clean the scum off of it.
    LA is a mess, so is many parts of the world. they can't even get rid of ISIS.
    Just wait till God starts cleaning. There won't be a piece of rot left - including snobby children. :)
     
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  20. Eddi

    Eddi a very naughty boy

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    Returning to the central issue of my original post: I do not think God is parental. That is my central point and I haven't seen anything come up in this thread that will make me change that view. I still believe that if we are to judge God as a dad then he falls short, and it is better to think of him in different terms.

    Yes, parents have rules their children must follow, of course. And of course, a guest in anyone else's house must respect the rules of the host and of course people have a right to defend their homes. And I absolutely agree that a mother and father have the right to punish their non-adult children, within certain limits.

    But we're talking about life and death here, parents don't cosign their children to oblivion if they disagree with certain things, or no longer want a relationship. If little Timmy does something naughty his mother and father don't starve him to death, do they? And they don't extinguish his consciousness for all eternity, do they? Again, social services would get involved and there'd be a prosecution.

    Besides, I don't know about you but I've been talking about adult children, who said anything about toddlers???

    As for "laws" - that doesn't sound very personal or parental to me.

    I say this: You can have God the lawgiver or you can have God the dad - you cannot have both
     
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