religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

[Skwim]

I've reported this post as assaultive and needlessly abusive.

In what way is it assaultive and abusive?

Is what was said untrue?

.

 

[charlie sc]

Sorry I see you mentioned this in your OP. 6 per scale point so maybe 18 points max?

I don't know, I sure there are folks with higher IQs than me and probably some with lower IQs. I don't see that as making anyone better or worse off than myself.



Sorry, didn't actually answer your question.

Yes, for that particular study it was. However, the meta-analyses explains it in more detail. There are quite a few differences from small to large, but they all correlate negatively.

I like the analytical vs intuitive thought explanation. I suspect analytical folks tend to end up questioning everything, including religious beliefs. Intuitive folks tend to rely on their feelings more. Religion, IMO relies mostly on feelings.

Funnily enough, there are studies on this. They show that religious people tend to use more intuition and less analytical cognition than non-religious. I can reference the study if you want

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Boy, he must have really hit you where you live. In any case, his evidence does back up his assertion, or didn't you read it?

The Relation Between Intelligence and Religiosity: A Meta-Analysis and Some Proposed Explanations

Miron Zuckerman1, Jordan Silberman1, and Judith A. Hall2
​

Abstract
A meta-analysis of 63 studies showed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity. ​

Of course you didn't read it, which is why you replied with irrelevancies:

​

But read it dfnj. Even if you don't like its conclusions it's still has some interesting stuff in it---as well as a lot of boring stuff.

.

I have often wondered, myself, what sort of correlation, negative or positive, there may between IQ as it's measured these days, and questioning (or call it information seeking or curiosity, if you like). Then one might well find it interesting to study the correlation between curiosity and religion. (Of course, that makes it all more complex than the simple idea that only unintelligent people are really religious. But I do feel there's something else going on...)

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This doesn't matter that much. The person may be the antithesis of what was expect. However, correlations may tell you about the likelihood or probability of a characteristic or a prediction of that person.
For instance, if someone is a heavy smoker, it's likely, not necessary, that person will get lung cancer comparing to someone who does not smoke. So, it's likely someone who is highly religious(more intrinsic belief for crime as I recall) won't commit crimes and are healthy, according to the studies.
Correlation does not mean causation.

I wasn't suggesting you were establishing causation. But neither do I find 'religiousity' as a useful measure. My suggestion here is that a fundamentalist Muslim, a Jain, and a liberal Jew have very little in common.
Myself...as an atheist...struggle to see myself in a 'group' which includes anyone who doesn't believe in God, regardless of other factors. The herding cats analogy seems real enough to me.
So my argument would be more that the areas being assessed are extremely broad to the point of being uninformative. Somewhat akin to measuring Northern vs Southern hemispheres of the world, and measuring them by IQ.

Mind giving some sources?

Sorry, I don't have them handy...more like something I am remembering than something I'm currently looking at (so yes, prone to error).
However, at least some of what I am remembering was analysis by James Flynn on why the effect baring his name was no longer holding true in many countries (Finland is often used as the example, but that's the combination of mandatory military service and iq testing for all military personnel).

His point was that IQ tests focused on particular types of thinking...primarily abstract...and promotes that as a way of measuring intelligence.

Other than that, I'll admit, there's an element of personal bias here. I'm a child of the 90's, a psychology major, and an education student.

That meant critical analysis of IQ tests, usage of those tests in a practical way to gain support resources for at risk kids, and the cognitive dissonance of all that when combined with educational and learning theories like Gardner's. Nothing new there, and I'm sure you're familiar with it, given your interest in the area.

 

[charlie sc]

Intuitive folks tend to rely on their feelings more. Religion, IMO relies mostly on feelings.

I read it a while ago but here it is. Luckily, it's open access The Negative Relationship between Reasoning and Religiosity Is Underpinned by a Bias for Intuitive Responses Specifically When Intuition and Logic Are in Conflict

 

[robocop (actually)]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

So greater life satisfaction, mental health, were more resistant to disease, less likely to get depressed and tended to live longer vs lower IQ. Got it!

 

[charlie sc]

I wasn't suggesting you were establishing causation. But neither do I find 'religiousity' as a useful measure. My suggestion here is that a fundamentalist Muslim, a Jain, and a liberal Jew have very little in common.
Myself...as an atheist...struggle to see myself in a 'group' which includes anyone who doesn't believe in God, regardless of other factors. The herding cats analogy seems real enough to me.
So my argument would be more that the areas being assessed are extremely broad to the point of being uninformative. Somewhat akin to measuring Northern vs Southern hemispheres of the world, and measuring them by IQ.

Sure. Though the, "Muslim, a Jain, and a liberal Jew," have belief and religion in common. In these studies, it's actually quite important to get as many people and flavours as possible. For instance, if I only want to study a topic concerning children, I could not make a meaningful generalise above this demography.
I get your concern that it's fairly uninformative, but as Evangelicalhumanist mentioned, there may be something deeper here, which may have more explanatory power.
So, let's say we get 5 million participants all around the world - half live in the southern hemisphere and half in the North. The null hypothesis starts by saying there's no difference but after the study we find there is a difference in IQ between these two hemispheres. For this particular category, it may not be very informative but, as has been stated, what's probably more meaningful is why this is the case and possible research that can explore this. This is a far more meaningful when interpreting the data.

Sorry, I don't have them handy...more like something I am remembering than something I'm currently looking at (so yes, prone to error).
However, at least some of what I am remembering was analysis by James Flynn on why the effect baring his name was no longer holding true in many countries (Finland is often used as the example, but that's the combination of mandatory military service and iq testing for all military personnel).

His point was that IQ tests focused on particular types of thinking...primarily abstract...and promotes that as a way of measuring intelligence.

Other than that, I'll admit, there's an element of personal bias here. I'm a child of the 90's, a psychology major, and an education student.

That meant critical analysis of IQ tests, usage of those tests in a practical way to gain support resources for at risk kids, and the cognitive dissonance of all that when combined with educational and learning theories like Gardner's. Nothing new there, and I'm sure you're familiar with it, given your interest in the area.

No worries Well, this is more entertainment for me, so I probably read some of them in passing.IQ tests have continuously improved since the really bad ones were implemented, yeah. If you'd like to say IQ tests just aren't good, at all, then I'd need some strong arguments. I'd love some critiques if you find the time to give them, preferably as references.
For arguments sake, let's assume IQ tests are not a good measure of intelligence. There's still a clear difference between these two groups using various and substantiated IQ tests. As I said previously, why is more important.

 

[osgart]

I have a religious point of view, and im a 120. Iq tests mean little.

Consensus among conformists doesnt mean anything.

 

[charlie sc]

I have a religious point of view, and im a 120. Iq tests mean little.

Consensus among conformists doesnt mean anything.

There will always be outliers; correlations measure general trends.

Out of curiosity, what IQ test did you do?

 

[osgart]

There will always be outliers; correlations measure general trends.

Out of curiosity, what IQ test did you do?

Cambridge iq tests

IQ 132 (19 Correct) – CambridgeIQExams.com

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sure. Though the, "Muslim, a Jain, and a liberal Jew," have belief and religion in common. In these studies, it's actually quite important to get as many people and flavours as possible. For instance, if I only want to study a topic concerning children, I could not make a meaningful generalise above this demography.
I get your concern that it's fairly uninformative, but as Evangelicalhumanist mentioned, there may be something deeper here, which may have more explanatory power.
So, let's say we get 5 million participants all around the world - half live in the southern hemisphere and half in the North. The null hypothesis starts by saying there's no difference but after the study we find there is a difference in IQ between these two hemispheres. For this particular category, it may not be very informative but, as has been stated, what's probably more meaningful is why this is the case and possible research that can explore this. This is a far more meaningful when interpreting the data.



No worries Well, this is more entertainment for me, so I probably read some of them in passing.IQ tests have continuously improved since the really bad ones were implemented, yeah. If you'd like to say IQ tests just aren't good, at all, then I'd need some strong arguments. I'd love some critiques if you find the time to give them, preferably as references.
For arguments sake, let's assume IQ tests are not a good measure of intelligence. There's still a clear difference between these two groups using various and substantiated IQ tests. As I said previously, why is more important.

Ok, that makes more sense to me then. I think I'm a little gun shy about people using tests like this to 'prove' they're more rational, smarter, kinder, more attractive to the ladies, or whatever.

As an initiator for actual discussion and research it seems less problematic.

I'll see what I can dig up, but no promises...I'm almost 20 years out of education and psych, so the reading I do is more akin to 'popular science' than hard science these days.

[Insert joke about psych EVER being hard a science...lol]

 

[Jollybear]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

What about memory? Memory verses critical thinking?

If you have bad memory, you wont do well on any test. But someone can have good critical thinking but poor memory.

 

[charlie sc]

Cambridge iq tests

IQ 132 (19 Correct) – CambridgeIQExams.com

I took the test and it was enjoyable, but they wanted me to pay Unfortunately, they haven't explained anything about this IQ test and they don't give any detail. See, the most robust tests explain who you are being compared to, how many you are being compared to, discuss previous literature, and most commonly do it in person.
From what I know of IQ tests, they even account for how you solved it and how stressed you are. If you want an accurate representation, you'd need to do it in person(to remove cheating) and they do cost money. The link you gave - Crambridgeexam, does not seem to have any literature. I might as well say that they aren't comparing and/or haven't standardised their test.
Therefore, they are giving out arbitrary numbers and one can compare it to a Facebook IQ tests, sorry. (edited typo)

These are the more well known ones with literature Intelligence quotient - Wikipedia

 

[whirlingmerc]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

The general 'scientific' consensus?

So religious people were the ones primarily behind the end of the slave trade, making orphanages, hospitals, the red cross because ... why? in your view?

 

[charlie sc]

What about memory? Memory verses critical thinking?

If you have bad memory, you wont do well on any test. But someone can have good critical thinking but poor memory.

I don't know, but I think some tests specifically test your memory. Funny you should mention that, because the last link I gave, which was to Nakosis, said in the abstract, " We report that atheists surpass religious individuals in terms of reasoning but not working-memory performance."
They gave a barrage of tests to many participants. I'd have to re-read to fully understand it. Of course, you may too The Negative Relationship between Reasoning and Religiosity Is Underpinned by a Bias for Intuitive Responses Specifically When Intuition and Logic Are in Conflict So, yes, I think demonstrably someone may have poor memory but good reasoning skills.

I'm not sure if this answers your question.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

Just another appalling attempt to demonize people who are religious.

 

[charlie sc]

So religious people were the ones primarily behind the end of the slave trade, making orphanages, hospitals, the red cross because ... why? in your view?

I'm not sure if this is a question, statement or rhetorical question. Perhaps someone else would be better equipped to answer this.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

My my my... such unbiased studies...

"...atheists outperform the most dogmatic religious group by a substantial margin (0.6 standard deviations) during a color-word conflict task but not during a challenging matrix-reasoning task. These results support the hypothesis that behavioral biases rather than impaired general intelligence underlie the religiosity effect....."
Are Religious People Really, On Average, Less Smart than Atheists?

Let me get this straight, ability to ignore your conscience makes one 'more intelligent'?

 

[charlie sc]

Just another appalling attempt to demonize people who are religious.

I'm not sure how the truth demonises anyone, especially if it's in a respectful manner. For instance, most of the media shows people with schizophrenia as dangerous without evidence. Most colloquial speech between people will vilify someone inferring, "are you schizo?" or somesuch. However, the actually literature shows they aren't dangerous at all. It's only a minute amount but it carries with it so much stigma. Similarly, if we talk about correlations, I'll follow the data whether it's negative, positive or neutral. Evidence is not always pleasant, but then you can't accept what's pleasant on the same grounds and claim intellectual honesty.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I'm not sure if this is a question, statement or rhetorical question. Perhaps someone else would be better equipped to answer this.

You may take it as all three.