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religiosity and/or strength of religious belief is associated with less intelligence

charlie sc

Well-Known Member
My my my... such unbiased studies...

"...atheists outperform the most dogmatic religious group by a substantial margin (0.6 standard deviations) during a color-word conflict task but not during a challenging matrix-reasoning task. These results support the hypothesis that behavioral biases rather than impaired general intelligence underlie the religiosity effect....."
Are Religious People Really, On Average, Less Smart than Atheists?
The link you gave is to neurosciencenews. They're pretty good at summarising the most recent stuff and I occasionally check them out. Amusingly, the one you linked summarised the study I have now linked two times. I'll do it again: The Negative Relationship between Reasoning and Religiosity Is Underpinned by a Bias for Intuitive Responses Specifically When Intuition and Logic Are in Conflict Third time is the charm :p
So, they gave a possible explanation, with data, why IQ is less. I have to fully read it again, but their explanation is that religious people tend to think more intuitively, consequently, their IQ is lower. Therefore, IQ tests cannot properly reflect their real IQ.

Let me get this straight, ability to ignore your conscience makes one 'more intelligent'?

No.

You may take it as all three.

Since it's a rhetorical question, I don't have to answer.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf
Huge question -posting now so I remember to get back to it when I have time.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I'm not sure how the truth demonises anyone, especially if it's in a respectful manner. For instance, most of the media shows people with schizophrenia as dangerous without evidence. Most colloquial speech between people will vilify someone inferring, "are you schizo?" or somesuch. However, the actually literature shows they aren't dangerous at all. It's only a minute amount but it carries with it so much stigma. Similarly, if we talk about correlations, I'll follow the data whether it's negative, positive or neutral. Evidence is not always pleasant, but then you can't accept what's pleasant on the same grounds and claim intellectual honesty.

Without context such tests are meaningless. Higher IQ doesn’t mean better IQ. Quality and how it is used is of the utmost importance.

A nuclear scientist who creates nuclear weapons may have a higher IQ than say a mother Theresa but in this case a higher IQ spent in the destruction of the human race vs a lower IQ spent in serving the poor which do you think is the better IQ?

I bet those who created the atom bomb were of a high IQ yet of what use is such an IQ when it’s turned towards destruction?

So just creating a test like that is fallacious as it doesn’t show whether the irreligious person’s IQ is of more worth to society than the one with the lower IQ.

Tests like this are only done to try and discredit religion because there is no context.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Without context such tests are meaningless. Higher IQ doesn’t mean better IQ. Quality and how it is used is of the utmost importance.

A nuclear scientist who creates nuclear weapons may have a higher IQ than say a mother Theresa but in this case a higher IQ spent in the destruction of the human race vs a lower IQ spent in serving the poor which do you think is the better IQ?

I bet those who created the atom bomb were of a high IQ yet of what use is such an IQ when it’s turned towards destruction?

So just creating a test like that is fallacious as it doesn’t show whether the irreligious person’s IQ is of more worth to society than the one with the lower IQ.

Tests like this are only done to try and discredit religion because there is no context.

Was it suggesting higher IQ correlates to a subjectively better person?
I don't think so.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?
I do think that anyone who automatically claims and states such things must have a very low IQ themselves.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The general scientific consensus(1) shows religiosity and the strength of religious belief is associated with less IQ. The procedure and and materials needed for these studies seem fairly simple to perform. Gather a bunch of people, have them do an IQ test, or similar, and then ask how religious they are or the intensity of their belief. Consistently, participants that score higher on the
religious scale will rank lower in IQ. However, it's not just limited to IQ; more recent research demonstrates less analytic cognition and less scientific and mathematical knowledge. So, as an example for this topic, Kanazawa(2) performed a study with 15,197 Americans. He found, on a 1-4 scale(1 = not religious, 4 = very religious) that IQ decreased, on average 6 points, per scale.

This question is for theists, but atheists may respond.
Why do you think religiosity and/or strength of religious belief negatively correlates with IQ?


References

(1) http://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-cont...a-Analysis-and-Some-Proposed-Explanations.pdf

(2) http://personal.lse.ac.uk/kanazawa/pdfs/spq2010.pdf

Now this is amazing, that the
general scientific consensus, Takes a bunch of people who are weak in their faith and beliefs and expect them to get a high IQ

Ok so what the general scientific consensus is doing is no different than gather a bunch of people that are crippled and expects them to run a 100 yards and see if they can make the run in less than a minute.

Now seeing their crippled, guess what theyll be lucky if they can make it in less than two minutes, they'll be lucky to make it in two minutes or more.

So that test the general scientific consensus gave is useless, unless they give the same test to those who's faith and beliefs are strong.

You can not give a test to bunch of people, who's understanding or knowledge is limited.

For a test to really show the results, you have give a test to those people who's beliefs and faith is strong, otherwise it's not going to work.

As you can not give a test to people, who can not swim at all, and expect them to swim in
8 foot of water and the length of the swimming pool. Without sinking.

As you can not give a test to someone who's intelligence is limited on Religious matters and to expect your going to come out with any high IQ. It just won't work.

You can not give a test to people who's understanding and knowledge of scientific methods and expect them to get a high IQ.
It will not work.

So that test that the general scientific consensus given failed it's self, before it even got out the door.
 
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I don't know, but I think some tests specifically test your memory. Funny you should mention that, because the last link I gave, which was to Nakosis, said in the abstract, " We report that atheists surpass religious individuals in terms of reasoning but not working-memory performance."
They gave a barrage of tests to many participants. I'd have to re-read to fully understand it. Of course, you may too :p The Negative Relationship between Reasoning and Religiosity Is Underpinned by a Bias for Intuitive Responses Specifically When Intuition and Logic Are in Conflict So, yes, I think demonstrably someone may have poor memory but good reasoning skills.

I'm not sure if this answers your question.

Well, i have to say, i dont trust the articles point. I think its too simplistic.

In my view, theres very smart religious folk (like me :D ) and very stupid religious folk (unlike me). And theres very smart atheists and theres also very stupid atheists.

Thats my view.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Read my profile below.
It seems that with the decline of religion people are getting smarter.
Yet we don't seem to be able to hold our lives together like people
of previous, lower IQ generations could.

Nope not at all,
What it means is, that with the decline of religion is not that people are getting smarter, But people are lacking of understanding and knowledge of what the bible/scriptures actually does say and confirms.
All because those people in religion listen to the teachings of man's and not what the bible/scriptures does teach and confirm's.

So it's not their getting smarter, but less intelligent.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Well, i have to say, i dont trust the articles point. I think its too simplistic.

In my view, theres very smart religious folk (like me :D ) and very stupid religious folk (unlike me). And theres very smart atheists and theres also very stupid atheists.

Thats my view.

If I may say, For the general scientific consensus to work, they would have to give it those people who are strong in their beliefs and faith for it to work.

Let's say, they take a bunch of people who can not swim at all, and wants them to swim in 8 foot of water and the length of a swimming pool.
Now how exactly is this going to work to give them a high grade in swimming, when they can't even swim at all.

So what the general scientific consensus did, is take a bunch of people who's beliefs and faith are weak and give them a IQ test.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Without context such tests are meaningless. Higher IQ doesn’t mean better IQ. Quality and how it is used is of the utmost importance.

A nuclear scientist who creates nuclear weapons may have a higher IQ than say a mother Theresa but in this case a higher IQ spent in the destruction of the human race vs a lower IQ spent in serving the poor which do you think is the better IQ?

I bet those who created the atom bomb were of a high IQ yet of what use is such an IQ when it’s turned towards destruction?

So just creating a test like that is fallacious as it doesn’t show whether the irreligious person’s IQ is of more worth to society than the one with the lower IQ.

Tests like this are only done to try and discredit religion because there is no context.

If I may say, For the general scientific consensus to work, they would have to give it those people who are strong in their beliefs and faith for it to work.

Let's say, they take a bunch of people who can not swim at all, and wants them to swim in 8 foot of water and the length of a swimming pool.
Now how exactly is this going to work to give them a high grade in swimming, when they can't even swim at all.

So what the general scientific consensus did, is take a bunch of people who's beliefs and faith are weak and give them a IQ test.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If I may say, For the general scientific consensus to work, they would have to give it those people who are strong in their beliefs and faith for it to work.

Let's say, they take a bunch of people who can not swim at all, and wants them to swim in 8 foot of water and the length of a swimming pool.
Now how exactly is this going to work to give them a high grade in swimming, when they can't even swim at all.

So what the general scientific consensus did, is take a bunch of people who's beliefs and faith are weak and give them a IQ test.

Christians in my view and most religious people in my opinion if they try and abide by God’s Law of live then their IQ is the best there is for man’s worth in this life is not measured by any scientific IQ test but by how humble and loving he is. This is my view.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You haven't explained why it's trolling or hateful. I'm citing and discussing scientific literature and I'm curious how truthful statements are hateful? For instance, if I say redheads have different kinds of pain receptors, am I being a bigot or hateful?Or, if I say men, generally, have more upper body strength but women have demonstrated more emotional intelligence, am I being a sexist or hateful?
The answer is no. I'm understanding science in a non-derogatory manner. Differences in people do exist, like it or not. It appears that you don't like what I'm saying, so you'll call it hateful so you don't have to listen to it or even consider it. This, I find, is extremely intellectually dishonest.



I don't see what your reply has anything to do with what I said. These studies aren't based off prejudice or bigotry.



I never said that other qualities aren't just as important if not more important than IQ. This was specifically about IQ.
So, I appreciate you mentioning other qualities like being placid under stress, being loving and empathetic, but the manner you avoided the question and then retorted says more about your response.

A lot of hateful trolling -bigotry will be directed toward
those who point out unpopular information.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
IQ is not a very good way of measuring intelligence. It's more a measure of how well a person will do in a public school setting. Some people just have a different set of skills. Doesn't make them less intelligent, just different.


Hmmm.

I don't know about that...
Geniouses famously have their genious reflected in IQ test results, while many of them were notoriously dreadful in school - in part because of their genious, and sometimes simply because of them being to rebelious or whatever. Einstein comes to mind.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Nope not at all,
What it means is, that with the decline of religion is not that people are getting smarter, But people are lacking of understanding and knowledge of what the bible/scriptures actually does say and confirms.
All because those people in religion listen to the teachings of man's and not what the bible/scriptures does teach and confirm's.

So it's not their getting smarter, but less intelligent.

It's bad wording. I was being sarcastic when I said non-religious
people are smarter.
IQ isn't going to change in a post-religious world.

ps post-religion is an American term? Americans think that there
will be generations of non-religious Americans. These are the
people who have fewer children, and create vacuums in the lives
of those who are born - a vacuum Islam seems successful in
filling.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So religious people were the ones primarily behind the end of the slave trade, making orphanages, hospitals, the red cross because ... why? in your view?

Consinderig most of the world is, and has always been, religious, it really doesn't come as a surprise that most things in the world are being done by religious folk.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I'll have to take a closer look at the papers later, but taking a glance, it seems to suffer from many of the problems I tend to notice in studies like this. Limited demographics (roughly half of more from college students in the United States) that make extrapolation to the global population a no-go, for example. Very coarse interpretations of what "religious" means that are biased towards rather outdated conceptions thereof given the rise in "spiritual but not religious" in the United States are present too (albeit unsurprisingly).

In any case, I ask myself what is there to be gained from such claims or studies. I can't see much value to it beyond having an axe to grind. I feel the same way about the studies that attempt to correlate race or ethnic groups to intelligence. In that sense, I fully agree with @dfnj 's reaction. The studies are basically the academic equivalent of trolling. It serves no productive purpose whatsoever.

A lot of basic resesrch is criticized for having no
evident and immediate value.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What about memory? Memory verses critical thinking?

If you have bad memory, you wont do well on any test. But someone can have good critical thinking but poor memory.

Maybe you remember what I wrote to you about the
difference between memorizing and understanding.

You had said that you remember little of the science
you read. I pointed out that if you understood what you
read, you would not forget.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
My my my... such unbiased studies...

"...atheists outperform the most dogmatic religious group by a substantial margin (0.6 standard deviations) during a color-word conflict task but not during a challenging matrix-reasoning task. These results support the hypothesis that behavioral biases rather than impaired general intelligence underlie the religiosity effect....."
Are Religious People Really, On Average, Less Smart than Atheists?

Let me get this straight, ability to ignore your conscience makes one 'more intelligent'?

I am pretty sure that if a person believes in noahs ark,
it is a sign that they may not be real bright.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I've reported this post as assaultive and needlessly abusive.
How is it assaultive or indeed abusive?
The implication may be that religious folks might fare worse on IQ tests than non religious folk.
Which may be considered rude to being up in normal conversation, I suppose.

In the discussion which followed I haven’t really seen anyway try to assert that it’s proof of religious being inherently dumber.
 
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