The Hijab Problem

[Remté]

If Muslims think they can impose Koran and Muhammed on other people and other countries they are VERY wrong, as a religion. That is a major flaw in those Muslims. Or do you not agree?

Do you think they think that?

 

[icehorse]

There is an ayat that says:

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." 3:7​

But the number one problem in the things said about the Quran in this discussion is the lack of context. You interpret verses without any context or understanding of history. Worse than that there has been at least one verse presented alone without the following one which was part of it. You take what you think is bad and then conveniently ignore the thing that follows that changes the entire meaning.

Your claims are baseless. I haven't told you all of my context and I haven't told you all of my studying process. I suspect that you're strawmanning me here. I know that many people cherry pick verses out of context. But you cannot yet know whether I do. So stop the strawmanning please.

 

[Remté]

That is belittling. Anyone can (is able to) understand the Koran if he puts in some effort.

You won't find a single respectable Imam or a scholar who says they understand all of the Quran.

 

[Remté]

I disagree. Large polls indicate that hundreds of millions of Muslims come to many of the same parsimonious conclusions that I do.

You have yet to tell us more about those polls you always talk about.

 

[stvdv]

There is an ayat that says:

"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." 3:7​

But the number one problem in the things said about the Quran in this discussion is the lack of context. You interpret verses without any context or understanding of history. Worse than that there has been at least one verse presented alone without the following one which was part of it. You take what you think is bad and then conveniently ignore the thing that follows that changes the entire meaning.

I see, you quoted the verse I showed you. Clearly it states that only Allah knows the meaning of those allegorical verses.
So you don't know their meaning either. So better not tell @icehorse that he can't understand. That's what I mean that this is a good verse. It makes you humble and less arrogant. No need to belittle non-Muslims and all the time tell us "you don't know context. Most Muslims don't study Koran even.

But all human have conscience. And they know when something feels wrong. And I am talking about really big time wrong. For example belittling the faith of others (or belittling atheists). Those practices are "not done". And you know that there is a specific verse also about this in the Koran telling "....And Allah will be the judge about the things you disagreed on....". That is not for you to judge.

 

[Remté]

Your claims are baseless. I haven't told you all of my context and I haven't told you all of my studying process. I suspect that you're strawmanning me here. I know that many people cherry pick verses out of context. But you cannot yet know whether I do.

Your conclusions let me know. But sure present the verses you have understood in their context and tell me what is the problem with them. I wonder you didn't do it ages ago.

 

[stvdv]

You won't find a single respectable Imam or a scholar who says they understand all of the Quran.

Of course not "only Allah understands the allegorical verses as I explained when giving verse 3:07"
But all people have conscience and know if something feels right or wrong, when they are willing to listen and study it a little

 

[stvdv]

Do you think they think that?

They threatened to nuke Geert Wilders for that, and I (and the rest of Holland) would be nuked with it.
Nuking someone for having a drawing context I call "imposing" on them (if you read that article.
That was very obvious. That is not what I think or believe, that is what they said in that article.

 

[Remté]

I see, you quoted the verse I showed you. Clearly it states that only Allah knows the meaning of those allegorical verses

There is disagreement whether it means that or whether it means that only God and those well learned can know.

However, I don't think mentioned poster is confused of the allegorical. If they could get the rest of it right it would already clear these misconceptions.

 

[Remté]

They threatened to nuke Geert Wilders for that, and I (and the rest of Holland) would be nuked with it.
Nuking someone for having a drawing context I call "imposing" on them (if you read that article.
That was very obvious. That is not what I think or believe, that is what they said in that article.

The issue was was about disrespect. The contest - made to provoke on purpose - was extremely disrespectful. According to the law they could have done it. But it is a horrible idea that insults the Muslims all over the world.

 

[stvdv]

There is disagreement whether it means that or whether it means that only God and those well learned can know.

Allegorical verses are like Koans. They are useful because they deepen your spiritual insight. But Koans can't be solved by "well learned people". Those verses can only be "felt in the heart", when you transcend the mind. My guess is that "allegorical verses" in the Koran might be similar. So they are for one's inner transformation, not so useful for sermons. Koans are useful when you do introspection.

 

[stvdv]

The issue was was about disrespect. The contest - made to provoke on purpose - was extremely disrespectful. According to the law they could have done it. But it is a horrible idea that insults the Muslims all over the world.

I agree it is disrespectful, but you should then also admit that it is wrong to threaten to nuke
I do not only talk, I even wrote Geert Wilders an email that he should not do this
But there is a reason that Geert Wilders started the contest
And that is because of disrespect of Muslims towards us

If a religion claims "Our religion is better than yours (or better than atheists)" then this is disrespect (belittling)
Naturally resulting in a reaction (and I am fair, Christians make the same error)

Do you admit it is wrong to say "Islam is better than other religions/atheism?"
I do remind you of the Koran verse saying "Allah will judge about your disagreements"

 

[stvdv]

Let's not even use this example. Since flaws in the Quran have been asked for perhaps a specific verse would do. I have yet to see one defend this one:
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

I do think nuking other countries "in name of Muhammed" falls under the category "Koran", because I do think most Muslims will agree that Muhammed has something to do with Koran. But I'm fine with Koran verses also.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Well if you also claim the book is perfect, then logically that would prove that I'm correct and you're wrong. The reason I can say this is that the perfect book declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. So if you claim that it's not easy to understand, then you're also claiming indirectly that the book is in error by claiming itself to be clear.

In other words - given that the book claims to be clear and easy - you cannot make these two claims:

- it's perfect
- it's hard to understand.

That simply doesn't hold up logically.

I dont really have time to dip too far into this thread again but I seldom equate 'perfect' with 'easy to understand.' Kind of the opposite,in fact. We're still struggling to find perfectly unified math. The variables are so insane that it couldn't be anything but super complicated and unreachable to the majority of people. I can't imagine a perfect codified form of the nature of a omnipotent being, creation, et all to be simple.

Granted I dont believe in any of these concepts (creation, omnipotence, gods or even perfection.) But I can see the logic of perfect and unattainable.

 

[icehorse]

You have yet to tell us more about those polls you always talk about.

I'll give you one example from the poll I already sent you a link to:

The Quran and the Hadith both tell Muslims that Islam is not just a religion, it is a total way of life. In other words, Islamic scripture promotes theocracies. The poll I linked to (and you can find other such polls), indicate that at least half of the world's Muslims think Sharia should be the law of the land. We can say that a land in which Sharia is the law, is a theocracy.

So here is one example (there are many more) of a strong correlation between what a simple reading of the Quran teaches, and what Muslims believe.

 

[icehorse]

Your conclusions let me know. But sure present the verses you have understood in their context and tell me what is the problem with them. I wonder you didn't do it ages ago.

You keep wanting to drag the conversation back to scholarly interpretations of verses and such. There are several reasons why I don't want to do that:

1 - Not even Muslim scholars agree on how to interpret the book, so why should I care what your interpretations are? Whatever interpretations you give, we could find Muslims who disagree with you.
2 - I have never claimed to be a scholar of Islamic scripture.

Can you acknowledge that I'm not claiming to be an Islamic scholar, but that instead I'm talking about what large percentages of Muslims believe, AND, that most Muslims are not scriptural scholars?

 

[icehorse]

I dont really have time to dip too far into this thread again but I seldom equate 'perfect' with 'easy to understand.' Kind of the opposite,in fact. We're still struggling to find perfectly unified math. The variables are so insane that it couldn't be anything but super complicated and unreachable to the majority of people. I can't imagine a perfect codified form of the nature of a omnipotent being, creation, et all to be simple.

Granted I dont believe in any of these concepts (creation, omnipotence, gods or even perfection.) But I can see the logic of perfect and unattainable.

In general I would agree with you EXCEPT, the book declares itself to be BOTH perfect AND easy to understand.

Again, if Muslims would let go of the idea that they have to defend that the book is perfect, a LOT of problems would disappear overnight.

 

[stvdv]

Tell me how you interpret Quran 4 89.

It is about war against Muslims. If they go to war against you, kill them.

WRONG !!! According to all 7 english translations given by @Subduction Zone

The 7 english translations do not say this. And I see at least 3 Muslim names who translated this. So how you come to this convenient translation, while these 7 english translations clearly tell a completely different story?

I will make it simple by going line by line:
1) They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike.
No real problem yet (except it seems like reverse evangelism). Non Muslims are said to want Muslims to become Non Muslims
How it is written does not seem to be violent, they just want them to "be alike", I see no hostility here.
2) So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah
Clearly this is all about evangelizing. Non Muslims should become Muslims otherwise stay away (don't become allies). Fair enough.
3) But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
So IF they turn away from Islam THEN kill them. Seems to me a lot of violence IF they want to leave Islam
It is not about them going to war with Muslim, they just leave Islam. The word used is "renegades" those leaving Islam, not about war at all. And it is know in Islam that they are not to friendly towards apostates. Another word used is "enmity" meaning opposition, meaning leaving Islam. Another word used "if they turn back" that is too obvious to explain. And another says "if they turn back (from Islam)" that is even more obvious.

Islam does not impose Islam on non Muslims, BUT it imposes Islam on Muslims, meaning you are not allowed to leave Islam.
Clearly this is mentioned by this verse. It is not at all about war.
YES THEY CALL THIS "minor jihād" in some articles I read

Now you will tell me, you should have read the context. So let me assure you that I did read it. And this was very simple:
a) The verses before tell us that if Allah has decided that they don't want to become Muslim, you as a Muslim should not have the arrogance to believe that you can impose Islam on them. So this is definitely not talking about war, nor talking about evangelizing (Muslim should not do this)

b) The verses after clearly talk about war. And here you make the big mistake. The verses 4:90 and following talk about war. But verse 4:89 is very specific talking about people who converted to Islam, and when they want to leave Islam then you can kill them, because apostacy is not allowed. Islam does not impose Islam on non Muslims, but once you are Muslim you are not allowed to leave Islam

So you are totally wrong that verse 4:89 is about war. It is NOT. It can be called "minor jihād", but not the war that you implied. This is about "personal" war (leaving Islam)
Proof that I am right here, is that the first 2 lines clearly do not talk about any violence of non Muslims towards Muslims. They just wish you were non Believers as they are.

Spoiler: Koran verse 4:89

Sahih International: They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.

Pickthall: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Yusuf Ali: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Shakir: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Muhammad Sarwar: They wish you to become unbelievers as they themselves are. Do not establish friendship with them until they have abandoned their homes for the cause of God. If they betray you, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. Do not establish friendship with them or seek their help

Mohsin Khan: They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

Arberry: They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper

 

[Remté]

Allegorical verses are like Koans. They are useful because they deepen your spiritual insight. But Koans can't be solved by "well learned people". Those verses can only be "felt in the heart", when you transcend the mind. My guess is that "allegorical verses" in the Koran might be similar.

No, they are not like Koans.

 

[Remté]

I do remind you of the Koran verse saying "Allah will judge about your disagreements"

You misunderstand the verse.

Why is the nuke an issue? It was an extremist who mentioned it, not just Muslims in general. Should they defend themselves because one among them speaks this way?