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Creation Science House Bill 3826

Please present said proof(s).
Really? I'd never have guessed.

The sign of a critical thinker is someone that uses logic and addresses argument and evidence. It does not attack or belittle the other. Like you do. So, this proves im a critical thinker and your not.

Please tell us what you researched and where your results were published.

Whats your problem? I just told you im not a scientist. Im not publishing anything. My research comes from books, articles, stuff like that. Also my own general abservation of the world around me too.

Tell me your publications? You got any?

Why would you wonder that?

Because you sound like a egomaniac to me. Thats why i wonder if you even read what you gave me or just threw it at me in order to make a ego appearence. Theres something about you i dont like. I can smell it off ya.

Please do. I makes you look foolish and ill-educated and that makes your claims less credible.

Let me ask you this, if i agreed with your views, but misspelled words, would that make the views less credible? ;)

You belittle yourself, no need for me to, and your choice of sources to believe just puts the nail in your coffin of belief.

Ya, keep saying it to yourself. Must make ya feel real good i suppose.

Then walk away with your tail between your legs and put me on ignore.

Your not going on ignor. You may be glossed over and not responded to, but ignor? Nope.

However if you change your tone, i wont gloss over you in future posts. Thats all up to you though.

No, under each remaining reference there are bulleted and succinct refutations, then there is a supported conclusion ... as a journal article they FAIL! If you fail to understand that, it is you who fails.

Ok, well, i got an ideaer. Im gonna look at the steven myer one, since i really like steven, ive listened to him more so then the others. So, ill look at that "refutation" and get back to you. However, this means i should probably read stevens journal too, lol. Because i havent even done that, have you? Dont lie either, because i dont like liers, in fact, they make my blood boil!

The failure(s) belong to the author(s) and to you. The author(s) fail for the bulleted reasons and you fail because you do not understand the bulleted reasons.

Im gonna look at the steven one.

We are waiting for your insights concerning the bulleted reasons.
No, the court found that ID is a religion ... that is how we affirm or reject constitutionality is the US of A.

Oh well i disagree with the court, that was a stupid ruling. You dont think a judge can make a wrong verdict? If thats the case, what about all kinds of innocents that go to jail due to stupid rulings?

There are a few crackpots and failed scientists favourable to ID,

Oh yea, newton is a crackpot too eh? I think your the real crackpot.

do you really believe that the vast majority of the best minds on the planet are all biased against ID?

No, i dont think that. But heres EXACTLY what i think. I think its a combination of stupid, biased and conspiracy. And you bit the bait full line and sinker and they weeled you in and fried you up nice and tender! Lol. Boy did they ever, you bit it hard man.

Why would that be? Have you ever considered that perhaps their rejection of ID is based on knowledge and finely tuned critical judgement?

Ok yes! Ive considered that possibility and frankly thats ONE of the reasons i come on here and debate and discuss it. A little doubt is healthy. However, in all honesty, the more i debate with atheists the less i doubt because i see more how foolish they are. You are high up there. But, dont get me wrong, theres some good atheists im talking to on here, its not all crazy.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
So did vertually everyone else!? Man you atheists are beyond irrational in things you say. There wer just as much atheists around then as now. Humans dont change much through history. Percentages will remain relatively constant.
I would like to see some facts to back up this assertion. Every poll in my country (UK) shows that the number of non-believers is growing (They don't measure atheism) and has been since records began. It is now something like 50%

And to say newton would not be a God believer if he lived after Darwin is to say he was a dumb a s s who held to his heliefs without deep thought into it. I strongly dont think thats how he was.
I don't know if Newton would have been an atheists if he was born after Darwin; but the evidence was certainly more clear cut as Darwin explained the diversity of life.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The sign of a critical thinker is someone that uses logic and addresses argument and evidence. It does not attack or belittle the other. Like you do. So, this proves im a critical thinker and your not.
If that is the sign of a critical thinker it is clear that you are out in the cold.
Whats your problem? I just told you im not a scientist. Im not publishing anything. My research comes from books, articles, stuff like that. Also my own general abservation of the world around me too.
OK, so we now know that you do no research and you've never done any research, in fact, you don't even know what actual research is. The best you can legitimately claim is that you read a little even though you have no grasp of spelling ... a sign and requirement of a literate researcher.
Tell me your publications? You got any?
Sixty-odd, not counting books, book chapters and collections that I edited. My current avatar is a photo of me with my slides and talk that had just been attended by the interested gentleman on my left who happens to be the second man on the moon.
Because you sound like a egomaniac to me. Thats why i wonder if you even read what you gave me or just threw it at me in order to make a ego appearence. Theres something about you i dont like. I can smell it off ya.
I read about 2,000 words a minute and have an almost photographic memory. If that makes me an egomaniac ... bring it on. What, pray tell, are your outstanding attributes besides your sense of smell?
Let me ask you this, if i agreed with your views, but misspelled words, would that make he views less credible? ;)
Yes, I'd offer to teach you how to use spell check so you'd not be a laughing stock and open to ridicule. Sure, that's strawman crap but your butchering of the English language greatly depauperizes the strength of the points you wish to make.
Ya, keep saying it to yourself. Must make ya feel real good i suppose.
Why must it? I guess you misjudge because that's what would make you feel good were you capable of it.
Your not going on ignor. You may be glossed over and not responded to, but ignor? Nope.
However if you change your tone, i wont gloss over you in future posts. Thats all up to you though.
Since your posts are so poorly constructed. in ever so many ways, I rather doubt that anyone would notice you were "glossing" me over.
Ok, well, i got an ideaer. Im gonna look at the steven myer one, since i really like steven, ive listened to him more so then the others. So, ill look at that "refutation" and get back to you. However, this means i should probably read stevens journal too, lol. Because i havent even done that, have you? Dont lie either, because i dont like liers, in fact, they make my blood boil!
Im gonna look at the steven one.
Let me save you the trouble since you're ill prepared to address either of the bulleted items.
Stephen C. Meyer, “The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories,” Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, Vol. 117(2):213-239 (2004)
All we actually have here is a very bad attempt to reorganize already existing information. This article was not peer-reviewed according to the standards of the Biological Society of Washington, but rather slipped into the journal by an editor without proper review.
The publisher later withdrew the article, but that well-known fact does not appear to deter the DI from claiming it – Fail.
Point 1:

Richard M. Sternberg held the unpaid position of Managing Editor of the peer-reviewed scientific journal, Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington. In 2001, Sternberg joined the editorial board of the Baraminology Study Group, a young earth creationist "creation science" attempt to identify and classify the created kinds mentioned in scripture. In October 2003 Sternberg resigned from being editor of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, with a commitment to edit issues over the coming year.

Early in 2004 intelligent design advocate Stephen C. Meyer contacted Sternberg about a manuscript that he was thinking of submitting to the journal. Sternberg advised him he would have to become a member of the Society, and in a few weeks Meyer sent him copies of the manuscript with evidence of membership. Sternberg went ahead with the review and editing process, and Meyer's article appeared in the journal on 4 August 2004.

This was already scheduled to be the second last issue that Sternberg would edit. In a statement issued by 10 October 2004 the journal declared that Sternberg had published the paper at his own discretion without following the usual practice of review by an associate editor. The Council and associate editors would have considered the subject of the paper inappropriate for publication as it was significantly outside "the nearly purely systematic content" of the journal, the Council endorses a resolution "which observes that there is no credible scientific evidence supporting ID as a testable hypothesis", and the paper therefore "does not meet the scientific standards of the Proceedings."

Sternberg insists the paper was properly peer reviewed, and rejects the reason given by the journal for disavowing the article, saying: "As managing editor it was my prerogative to choose the editor who would work directly on the paper, and as I was best qualified among the editors I chose myself." But, in point of fact, there are two boldfaced lies in that sentence.
Sternberg was unqualified to serve as a peer reviewer, since Meyer's paper dealt less with the areas Sternberg was qualified to review (systematics and taxonomy) than it did paleontology, for which many members of the society would have been better qualified to peer review the paper; at that time the Society had three members who were experts on Cambrian invertebrates, the subject discussed in Meyer's paper. A follow-up article by Ed Brayton criticized Sternberg's decision to review the paper, given his ties to a known movement that opposes the theory of evolution: "Sternberg argues that he had the authority to publish Meyer's paper. But having that authority does not excuse the professional and ethical misjudgments. If you know that the publication of a pro-ID paper in a Smithsonian journal is going to cause an outcry, and you have close ties to the ID movement and to the author of this paper specifically, the ethical thing to do would be to excuse yourself from handling that paper and allow someone without those personal and professional ties to the author and subject of the paper to decide whether it should be published. Thus, Sternberg's decision to publish the paper without the normal peer-review process is a flagrant breach of professional ethics that brought disrepute to the Smithsonian."

Doubts were raised whether the reviewers were evolutionary biologists. According to an article by the Society of Academic Authors Meyer said the article grew out of a presentation he made at a conference attended by Richard Sternberg where they discussed the possibility of a paper for society's journal. Observers have pointed to affiliations that in most circumstances would have disqualified Sternberg from reviewing an article on intelligent design. They note that Sternberg is a Fellow of the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design, a Discovery Institute-affiliated group dedicated to promoting intelligent design.

Sternberg claims to have also checked with a Council member and to have followed the standard practice for peer review: "Three reviewers responded and were willing to review the paper; all are experts in relevant aspects of evolutionary and molecular biology and hold full-time faculty positions in major research institutions, one at an Ivy League university, another at a major North American public university, a third on a well-known overseas research faculty. There was substantial feedback from reviewers to the author, resulting in significant changes to the paper. The reviewers did not necessarily agree with Dr. Meyer's arguments or his conclusion but all found the paper meritorious and concluded that it warranted publication...four well-qualified biologists with five PhDs in relevant disciplines were of the professional opinion that the paper was worthy of publication."

Of the four "well-qualified biologists with five PhDs" Sternberg identifies, one was Sternberg himself, contributing his double doctorate to the total he cited. Sternberg's claim of following proper peer review procedures directly contradicts the published public statement of his former employer, the publisher of the journal, that the proper procedures were not followed resulting in the article's retraction. In previous years the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington had published yearly lists of all the people who had served as peer reviewers. That list is absent for 2004, the year of the incident. Sternberg has repeatedly refused to identify the three "well-qualified biologists"

(thanks to wiki for parts of Point 1)

Point 2: The publisher withdrew the article, as a result it can not be honestly cited as evidence of anything, one way or the other since it "no longer exists."
Oh well i disagree with the court, that was a stupid ruling. You dont think a judge can make a wrong verdict? If thats the case, what about all kinds of innocents that go to jail due to stupid rulings?
Have you read his entire opinion? What part(s) do you find "stupid" and on what basis do you find those part(s) "stupid."
Oh yea, newton is a crackpot too eh? I think your the real crackpot.
Yes, Newton was a crackpot. He got motion right but he believed in astrology and the alchemetric transmutation of lead to gold.
No, i dont think that. But heres EXACTLY what i think. I think its a combination of stupid, biased and conspiracy. And you bit the bait full line and sinker and they weeled you in and fried you up nice and tender! Lol. Boy did they ever, you bit it hard man.
You lack the background to be taken seriously.
Ok yes! Ive considered that possibility and frankly thats ONE of the reasons i come on here and debate and discuss it. A little doubt is healthy. However, in all honesty, the more i debate with atheists the less i doubt because i see more how foolish they are. You are high up there. But, dont get me wrong, theres some good atheists im talking to on here, its not all crazy.
It is important to keep an open mind, just not so far open that your brains fall out.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I can get 10 duplicate copies of bill of laden papers from shippers, the last copy may have smudged ink or loss of ink (e.g. mutation) but none of that accounts for the origin of the bill of laden itself. The origin is intelligence. ;)
/QUOTE]

You didn't ask for the origin of life. You asked for the origin of the information. The information is produced via duplication and subsequent mutation and selection. So, what was one gene doing one job becomes two genes doing two jobs.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
As i make this post and submit it, if i see i placed a period in a wrong spot or if i did a typo, i can press edit and naturally select it out by fixing it.

But that isn't what is happening in natural selection. It isn't a 'fix'. It is a change to give a different gene with different capabilities.

Anyhow, you asked for a source that says DNA has this happen.

Heres an exerpt from Life’s deliberate typos

"Typos creep into the transcripts. Some of these are genuine errors where the wrong letter is put in place – proofreading proteins usually fix these mistakes. Other typos are deliberate edits – for example, proteins called deaminases will often convert some As into Gs, and (more rarely) some Cs into Us."

OK, and where do you see evidence that it was an intelligence that does this editing? It seems to me to be a chemical reaction affecting the production of the RNA transcript.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
The sign of a critical thinker is someone that uses logic and addresses argument and evidence.

That's the one thing you have said that I agree with.

However, that does not describe you. That describes the people you have been disagreeing with.


My research comes from books, articles, stuff like that.

From all your posts it is obvious that your "research" begins and ends with the Bible and Creationist writers.

From all your posts it is probable that your journey began with very early age indoctrination.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
you atheists are beyond irrational in things you say.

Thanks. It's always good to get beyond irrational.

And to say newton would not be a God believer if he lived after Darwin is to say he was a dumb a s s who held to his heliefs without deep thought into it.

I'm pretty sure that had I been born in the West in the Middle Ages or earlier, I'd have been a theist. Had I been an educated person living in eighteenth century North America, I'd probably have been a deist. Being born to atheist parents in the mid-20th century and educated in the liberal arts, it is not surprising that I am an atheist.

Newton would much more likely have been an atheist than a theist if he were alive today. I've shared this with you previously:
  • "Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist" - Richard Dawkins
You and the science community wanna criticize the IDers about publishing peer review journals, but when they do, theres resistance. And the resistance is not brought with refutation, but handwaving.

Who is criticizing the IDers for publishing their work? The work itself is being criticized as all new ideas entered into the marketplace of ideas should be.

Who has the power to prevent the IDers from publishing their papers in their journals, or to prevent them from being read, to prevent them from making whatever compelling arguments they can, or to replace the scientific position with its own if there is nothing more to this matter than the will and preferences of the scientists?

If the methods that you accuse the mainstream scientific community of are so effective at establishing a dogma while excluding competing ideologies independent of their content and their power to persuade, why weren't those tactics effective for the church when it first began resisting the incursion of scientific ideas that contradicted their dogma? If there is nothing more than an arbitrary human bias at work here, why can't the theists make it work for them instead given how many more of them that there are, and how much more powerful the church was than the scientists?

There is no conspiracy here against ID. ID simply can't compete with its alternative on a level playing field.

scientists are BIASED against ID.

Scientists are biased against all forms of pseudoscience, which is as it should be. Somehow, the word bias has come to mean a faulty way of thinking. Bias is not only a good thing except where it is irrational, it is a necessary thing for survival. It means the ability to discriminate between different things, and preferring one over the other. It is rational when that is based on experience, and the bias fosters an outcome preferred by the majority.

I presume that you have a bias against pedophiles and pedophilia. So do I. It is rational, the resistance to pedophiles and pedophilia promotes a generally agreed upon outcome - less pedophilia in the world.

If the IDers really have something there, they will persevere and eventually have their position become mainstream. If not, they will continue to suffer their present fate. That's how it should be, correct?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its not unconstitutional because ID is not religion. Its simply not.

Creationism is a religious idea even when called ID.

And what is unconstitutional in the States is whatever the Supreme Court says is unconstitutional, which can change over time.

As i make this post and submit it, if i see i placed a period in a wrong spot or if i did a typo, i can press edit and naturally select it out by fixing it.

Editing a manuscript would be artificial selection, not natural selection. Natural selection is a blind process without purpose.

The sign of a critical thinker is someone that uses logic and addresses argument and evidence.

A critical thinker is one who questions what he is told, that is, is a skeptic, and who validates or rejects the claims of others by engaging in a characteristic form of thinking that requires evaluating evidence dispassionately, making him also a rationalist and an empiricist. His conclusions will be supported by his sound reasoning, which he will accept provisionally as correct. His beliefs and the strength with which he holds them are commensurate with the quality and quantity of supporting evidence. They are amenable to revision if new evidence arises making his earlier position seem more or less likely to be correct.

Merely addressing arguments and evidence is not critical thinking if the analysis is flawed, that is, addressed uncritically.

if i agreed with your views, but misspelled words, would that make the views less credible?

Frequent misspellings damage the ethos of the presenter, ethos being the collection of opinions that the presenter's audience holds about him apart from his actual argument, which affect the way that that argument is received. It addresses such matters as the degree to which the speaker seems qualified to discuss the topic at hand, any suspected ulterior motives, questions about the speaker's character, and the like. If we are reading a treatise on a scholarly topic that implies that the writer is careless or not well educated either in general or in the specific topic at hand, it undermines the presenter's credibility whatever the message is.

This is the case not only when written words are frequently spelled incorrectly, but also when the writer makes factual errors that reveal that he hasn't sufficiently studied the topic being discussed. Common examples of this are misunderstanding what a scientific theory is ("It's only a theory"), calling both justified and unjustified belief faith, or demanding proofs that are neither possible nor necessary.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
That's true with all creationist apologist. The reason is that there is no positive argument for creationism, just attacks on its alternative. Where is your constructive argument for creationism that doesn't refer to the scientific alternative? Notice that the scientific case for abiogenesis makes no reference to gods or divine creationism, and is not a criticism of the religious position.



How do think it supports your case to request evidence, have is lavishly bestowed upon you, and then repeat that no evidence has been provided?

I'll tell you. It reveals that you don't use evidence to decide what is true about the world. You decide what you prefer to be true by faith, and then fail to see whatever evidence contradicts that position. That's how the faith based confirmation bias works. Once somebody has accepted a notion on faith, a filter forms that allows only that which seems to support the faith-based idea through. Nothing else can be seen.

As counterintuitive as this may seem, there is an excellent description of the phenomenon from geologist and former young earth creationist Glenn Morton, now an old earth creationist, of his own experience engulfed in such a confirmation bias. He anthropomorphizes the experience by equating it to a demon like Maxwell's demon, one which sits at the portal to his inner mind and decides what will enter and what will not. This is from Morton:

"When I was a YEC, I had a demon that did similar things for me that Maxwell's demon did for thermodynamics. Morton's demon was a demon who sat at the gate of my sensory input apparatus and if and when he saw supportive evidence coming in, he opened the gate. But if he saw contradictory data coming in, he closed the gate. In this way, the demon allowed me to believe that I was right and to avoid any nasty contradictory data ... The demon makes its victim feel very comfortable as there is no contradictory data in view ... one thing that those unaffected by this demon don't understand is that the victim is not lying about the data. The demon only lets his victim see what the demon wants him to see and thus the victim, whose sensory input is horribly askew, feels that he is totally honest about the data."

Is the victim of this phenomenon really this incapacitated by it? I find Morton sincere and credible. If he says that he was blind to this process, as counterintuitive as that claim may seem, I believe him. And this is how I now view most creationists telling me that they see no evidence even when it is handed to them. I think that they are wrong, but not lying. They really cannot see the evidence. And from this vantage point, they find the rational skeptic's position unbelievable and insincere. They wonder what it is that they think we consider evidence, in this case, for abiogenesis, and continue to say that no such thing exists.



Isn't that part of debate? You make positive assertions here that others find flawed. Rebuttal should not be viewed as attack, but rather as dissent.



Isn't that the basis of your faith? Don't you believe the claims of others that the words written down in the Christian Bible are the words of a god? Aren't you believing whoever Mark, Luke, John and Matthew were that Jesus said such-and-such?

When I say that I believe Newton or Einstein even without being able to understand the mathematics needed to understand their arguments, this is not blind faith. I have evidence that they are correct. The Apollo space flights that took man to the moon and back relied exclusively on Newtonian mechanics. Those men reached their target, walked on it, and returned home. What more evidence do I need that I can consider Newton reliable?

With Einstein, we have his prediction about the bending of the path of distant starlight grazing past the solar limb as it comes to earth, something not neither predicted by Newton's work nor suspected by anybody else. This phenomenon makes the star appear to be somewhere other than where it is known to be. The prediction was confirmed in 1919 by Eddington during a solar eclipse. Relativity theory has since been used to explain the pertubatiion of mercury's orbit as its long access precesses around the sun, and has been put to pragmatic use in new technology such as GPS devices.

It takes no faith to believe that work of such men is fundamentally sound

What is risky is believing the alleged knowledge of others on faith.



I've read enough from creationists that I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be missing anything tantalizing if I never read another word from such a source, so I don't.

But if you think that you have an idea from one of these sources that you think deserves serious attention, please summarize it here. If you don't, please disregard the request.



You're describing faith-based thought. The reason and evidence based thinker believes compelling arguments and demonstrations as I indicated above when discussing Newton and Einstein. We believe the evidence of their successes.

The sine qua non of a correct idea about reality is that it maps some aspect of nature in a way that allows one to predict and thus at times control outcomes. We know that Newton's ideas are slightly incomplete since Einstein showed us how and why, but they are still useful in the main in the way I just described.. These laws made it possible to launch the New Horizons probe from earth and expect it to rendezvous with Pluto several years later. In that way, the outcome of the launch could be predicted and controlled sufficiently to result in a successful mission.

Contrast that with wrong ideas, such as the astrological principle that the lives of human beings could be predicted or controlled by heavenly bodies according to their positions. This is an idea that was never once able to be put to any practical use. It doesn't map reality accurately, and this its predictions are wrong.

Now look at evolutionary theory and creationism. The former is a system of ideas that unifies mountains of data from a multitude of sources, accurately makes predictions about what can and cannot be found in nature, provides a rational mechanism for evolution consistent with the known actions of nature, accounts for both the commonality of all life as well as biodiversity, and has had practical applications that have improved the human condition in areas like medicine and agriculture. Those are the credentials of a correct idea.

Creationism, by contrast, can do none of that. It is a sterile idea with no predictive power and no pragmatic value, exactly what we expect from incorrect ideas like astrology.

Abiogenesis is not as far along yet as evolutionary science, so it isn't useful for much yet. It is still not yet a scientific theory, just a hypothesis being fleshed in at a substantial rate by ongoing scientific research - research which keeps finding new evidence of chemical combining to form the biological macromolecules characterisitic of biological sytems. In the meantime, creation research is still languishing at its starting mark searching for its first finding better explained by positing a god than unguided natural processes.

This too is evidence of which of these two ideas maps reality more closely. The scientific path of investigation continues revealing links in a chain from simple chemistry to life, while the religious idea remains sterile.

Incidentally, were you planning on addressing my rebuttal to your incredulity argument about how unlikely abiogenesis seems to you, and why positing a god to solve the dilemma is a logical error? Did you want to try to identify a logical fallacy or other error in my counterargument, or are you satisfied that it is sound? I'll assume so until I hear otherwise from you.

I hope that you won't choose bad faith argumentation and merely repeat the already refuted claim without addressing that refutation.



That's not my position. I don't expect abiogenesis to ever be proven correct. The best we can hope for even if it is correct is to show one or more thermodynamically sound paths that nature could have taken between simple chemistry and life. Our response to an incomplete theory is that unlike ID research, it is growing every year, which is consistent with what would be expected if unguided abiogenesis is possible.
You speak of evidence I have ignored, and great amounts of it.

I have not ignored anything.

Evidence is classified by it's quality and its relevance to the overall question.

Because a field has vast amounts of alleged evidence, in no way establishes it as relevant to the ultimate question.

I am reminded of the five blind men encountering an elephant. They each had li evidence to support their conclusions, yet their conclusions were wrong.

Except for perhaps Ross and Meyer, I don't read material from creation scientists, I do read the published material of those scientists working on abiogenesis. I find their critiques of one another's work, and criticisms of the various hypotheses of how abiogenesis came about as particularly enlightening.

The uninformed believer in abiogenesis is convinced that science has decided how abiogenesis came about, biochemistry, and the alleged "advances" in research are significant bricks in the structure of abiogenesis.

Robert Shapiro, a highly regarded chemist in abiogenesis, addressed a biochemistry hypothesis held by many, perhaps a majority, the DNA world in this way.

" The use of reaction sequences has long been an honored traditional field of organic chemistry". Speaking of the work of his PhD adviser, Nobel prize winner Dr. Robert B. Woodward, Shapiro states " Awarded the Nobel prize for his brilliant syntheses of ................................. it mattered little if kilograms of starting material were required to produce milligrams of the product. The point was that humans could produce, however inefficiently, substances found in nature. Unfortunately. neither chemists nor laboratories were present on the early earth to produce RNA."

One hypothesis, that the chemical ingredients for life were able to combine and begin the life process in a shallow lagoon, he says " I calculated that a large lagoon would have to be evaporated to the size of a puddle, without loss of it's contents, to achieve the right concentration."

" The drying lagoon claim is not unique. In a similar spirit , other prebiotic chemists have invoked freezing glacial lakes, mountain side freshwater glacial ponds, flowing streams, beaches, dry deserts, volcanic aquifers, or the entire global ocean, frozen or warm as needed to support their requirement for a nucleotide soup for RNA synthesis to come into existence on the early earth".

All quotations were taken from Shapiro's article presenting his own hypothesis, the simple replicator. " The Sound of Miller-Urey and Prebiotic Chemistry Exploding :"

Of course, quoting other parts of this article in another post brought the response, "that article is over ten years old", implying that in ten years the problems quoted are no longer problems and "more research" had solved them. "New research" being the silver bullet that always destroys criticism.

Strangely, virtually none is ever specifically cited.

I will continue my "rebuttal" in another post.
 
Im sorry all, i cannot respond to every post. I still am behind on posts from days ago. Im just gonna pick one or two per day and respond. Time wise, plus the volume of posts makes this impossible to respond to everyone.
 
Could it be because they want to dupe people? Of Course It Is! They are hell bent on trying to save the veracity of Genesis, and with their back up against the wall, thanks to court rulings, it's about all they have left: duping people. And as with all pro-creationism organizations, misleading and lying to its readers is now a matter of course.

Why would there motivation be to lie and save genesis?

First, genesis, because there primary focus and arguments have nothing to do with the genesis of the bible. Its in the arena of complexity, order, information and the inference of actual design. Also they have on there board some people who are not christians.

Second, lying to us. If they believe the bible, well the bible teaches not to lie. So if thats there primary thing there defending, then why would they break the law of the book there defending?

No, but many will say they do if it profits them, which in this case is done to dupe the reader into buying their creationist tale.

What if they really do believe it? Like i do. I really helieve it and i do based on the evidence they talk about. Ive listened to youtube debates from bith sides. Experts, both sides. So, i see the evidence.

Yup, but not in this particular case, Here their aim is to mislead the inattentive reader. Don't pay attention to every word and you'll come away with just the misunderstanding they are hoping for.


Should be obvious, I hope. Not only have they never given me reason to trust them, they've given me plenty of reason to distrust them.

What of the evidence though?

Of course it isn't a religion, but it is a religious belief, which is why the courts outlawed it in public schools.

No, its not even a religious belief. If you wanba call it a religious belief then you may as well say our posts which comes from our minds or intelligence, that this is a religious belief.

We see a code in DNA, so we infer intelligence. Thats not religious no more then saying our posts come from our minds is religious.

Sorry you missed the point. Try reading it again, C A R E F U L L Y. Or here, in edited form:

"it doesn't say they've published papers on creationism in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

It says there are scientists who have published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Scientists who also happen to be "favorable to intelligent design."


Ok, and why is that important?


Whats important is the evidence that was published. Thats what should and needs to matter. Attacking the motive is ad hominum. Ive noticed a good bit of ad hominum comes from naturalists against ID and everything spiritual.

All of which can only elicit a "So What?" Particularly after they said:

"9. Is research about intelligent design published in peer-reviewed journals and monographs?

YES!"
Which isn't backed up by a thing they said. They were very careful not to tie the work their scientists did to creationism, but slyly and by innuendo left the impression there was just such a connection.

Attacking motives is not attacking evidence.

By the way, the "open-access peer-reviewed biology journal BIO-Complexity," they tout, is an ID organization. Not an accredited scientific review journal.

In short, those behind the Discovery Institute are charlatans.

Perhaps because of the strong bias in the scientific community to peer review it. Thats why they gotta do some of there own direct research and peer review.

But, not all of it was like that. Some did make it in the peer review in the other community. Like stephen myers journal. But due to bias, the guy who let it in lost his job.

Its just a rejection of the evidence, not a legitimate refutation.

At best, atheistic naturalism, nor ID is proven, but both are equally inferential in nature.

So, its incredable the hypocrisy of the mainstream.
 

Timothy Spurlin

Active Member
What objective evidence do you have for the alternative view, that its true, unintelligent forces did it?

I have no objective evidence for the universe beginning. I can say I don't know. You are the one claiming that a designer or god did it, so the burden of proof lies with you. Time to put your money where your mouth is.
 
That's the one thing you have said that I agree with.

However, that does not describe you. That describes the people you have been disagreeing with.




From all your posts it is obvious that your "research" begins and ends with the Bible and Creationist writers.

From all your posts it is probable that your journey began with very early age indoctrination.

Did your views begin with an early age of indoctrination?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Why would there motivation be to lie and save genesis?
Why do you think there's a creationist movement in the first place? Why do you think creationist attack evolution so vociferously? It's all in defending the truth of Genesis before those who are tempted by the evidence of evolution to find the Bible faulty.

Second, lying to us. If they believe the bible, well the bible teaches not to lie. So if thats there primary thing there defending, then why would they break the law of the book there defending?

I give up.

Have a nice day.​

.
 
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But that isn't what is happening in natural selection. It isn't a 'fix'. It is a change to give a different gene with different capabilities.

Ok, and i can fix my post or i can add another point to my post. Still comes from my mind.

OK, and where do you see evidence that it was an intelligence that does this editing? It seems to me to be a chemical reaction affecting the production of the RNA transcript.

From the source i gave you.

"Typos creep into the transcripts. Some of these are genuine errors where the wrong letter is put in place – proofreading proteins usually fix these mistakes. Other typos are deliberate edits – for example, proteins called deaminases will often convert some As into Gs, and (more rarely) some Cs into Us."

Letter, typos, edits, proofreading, all that sounds like intelligence, not chemical reactions.

You didn't ask for the origin of life. You asked for the origin of the information. The information is produced via duplication and subsequent mutation and selection. So, what was one gene doing one job becomes two genes doing two jobs.

The origin of life depends on DNA. So, what is the origin of DNA information? Saying the origin comes from duplication is like saying the origin of my bill of laden papers comes from a photocopier.
 
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