Explain to me why god is real using facts

[Vinayaka]

If you are saying that they could be wrong, that is possible, but that is not a good reason to increase the chance of being wrong by adhering to beliefs that are logically contradictory or scientifically impossible. Why would God create humans with the ability to use reason and logic if we are not supposed to use that capacity?

It boggles my imagination how so many people could believe that Jesus rose from the dead and floated up into the sky and will someday descend from the sky and restore the world to a Garden of Eden instantly, with the wave of a magic wand, all based upon the belief that “God/Jesus is omnipotent so He can do anything.”

And you wonder why I am a Baha’i. Nothing Baha’is believe contradicts science. The only supernatural Baha’i beliefs are the existence of a soul and a spiritual world, but they are outside the purview of science so they do not contradict science.

Personally, I don't believe Christ existed, let alone all that other stuff about him. So we agree on that part. But I also certainly don't believe Baha'u'llah was infallible either. But at the same time believe everyone has the right to their belief, so I have no problem with Christians believing stuff about Christ or Baha'is believing what you believe. It's when anyone tries to impose by any means their belief onto others is when I have a problem.

 

[Trailblazer]

Personally, I don't believe Christ existed, let alone all that other stuff about him. So we agree on that part. But I also certainly don't believe Baha'u'llah was infallible either. But at the same time believe everyone has the right to their belief, so I have no problem with Christians believing stuff about Christ of Baha'is believing what you believe. It's when anyone tries to impose by any means their belief onto others is when I have a problem.

I believe Jesus existed but I do not believe all the stories written about Him.
I believe Baha'u'llah was infallible but only in a certain sense.

II think everyone is entitled to their beliefs as long as they do not impose them on others.
Christian beliefs are problematic for me. The ideas that they are saved and forgiven by the blood of Jesus and that Jesus will do everything when He returns so they won't have to do anything do bother me immensely. I would be less than honest if I said anything different.

 

[Vinayaka]

I believe Jesus existed but I do not believe all the stories written about Him.
I believe Baha'u'llah was infallible but only in a certain sense.

II think everyone is entitled to their beliefs as long as they do not impose them on others.
Christian beliefs are problematic for me. The ideas that they are saved and forgiven by the blood of Jesus and that Jesus will do everything when He returns so they won't have to do anything do bother me immensely. I would be less than honest if I said anything different.

Other beliefs don't bother me much, unless it's openly rude and derogatory to another person's belief. Hurling insults doesn't help. I think it's wise not to speak of another person's belief system, except to offer another POV when only one is presented.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Hypothetically speaking, Messengers may or not be necessary but that is a moot point. The only salient point is that God chooses to use Messengers.

I disagree. The ONLY SALIENT POINT is that some people seem to think that God is using them as Messengers, and some other people, for reasons known only to themselves, believe them.

 

[Quintessence]

So are you saying is that it is okay to believe in a myth, something that is not even real, something humans project onto the world?

Well... yes? Humans do this constantly. We're storytellers. Understand that "myth" really doesn't mean "not real" and certainly not "lie." They are stories we tell about the world that help us relate to it, reconcile with it, and give our lives meaning. All humans do this such that it isn't really a question of "is it okay" to my mind, but recognizing it's an inevitable facet of who we are as a species.

I believe that humans can potentially reflect the attributes of God, but I do not believe we can project God into the world.

To clarify, I don't mean to say the gods are entirely projections. What we deify in the world is a choice. The things we deify exist regardless of whether or not humans put the word "god" to them. That our maps are constructs doesn't mean the territory is. Am I making sense?

Why not?

I was brief in part because I didn't want to get into it, but the short version? Appealing to Abrahamic monotheisms is not going to be compelling to me as someone who isn't an adherent of any of those traditions. I also have zero trouble understanding the appeal of polytheism as a polytheist, even if you have difficulty.

But how is this related to whether the religions are actually true or false? (I mean reality vs. fantasy).

I don't conceptualize religions in that fashion, so that's not a question I ask. Some of that is because I don't conceptualize religion as a "belief system" like many Abrahamics do. In polytheistic traditions, there's more emphasis put on practice, and practices really aren't "true" or "false." You just do them.

Sorry, but this seems strange to me. I do not mean any disrespect but I cannot understand how there can be more than one God, because I cannot see a need for many gods.

You don't have to. Each to their own flavor of theism. Polytheism isn't for you. I can't comprehend how someone could value and worship only one thing (monotheism) either.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it is better to believe in God than to believe in no God.

If all ideas and concepts of a Supreme Being are all man-made and make believe it would be better to be an atheist.

If there is a God, it would be very important to believe in that God and do as that God says. But, what about the God that told Joshua to kill all the women and children in Jericho? And, what about the God that told Abraham to stick a knife in the heart of his son and then to burn him up as a sacrifice? And, this is from the supposed "real" God.

Some "gods" that told people things of that sort were not real, but people obeyed them anyway, because, at the time, they didn't know those "gods" weren't real. So still, if someone says that God said something, it probably a pretty good idea to get some kind of proof.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bible cannot be made up because Baha'u'llah wrote that it is God's greatest testimony to His creatures....

Baha'i have said that it is not 100% authentic, that the gospels were second or third hand accounts... Baha'is have said that Ishmael and not Isaac was the one Abraham took to be sacrificed, so that doesn't sound like Baha'is think that it is "God's" greatest testimony. Still, the worst, is blowing off the resurrection of Jesus as if the writings wrote verse after verse of how the disciples went to the tomb and the tomb was empty, how some of them saw Jesus and told the others, than how he appeared to all the disciples and let them touch him and said the he was not a ghost, but flesh and bone... Baha'is say it never happened? That all those verses were only symbolic and never, ever meant to be taken literal?

No, Baha'is don't care or respect the Bible, the NT, or Christianity. And that's fine. I have all kinds of issues with what they believe too. But, I don't go around and pretend that the Bible is the "greatest" testimony to his creatures. And then go about saying how wrong it is. If it's not real history, then it's fiction. If it's fiction, why believe it as if it is real? If it's fiction, then how about its main character... God? Could it just be a guess at what a Supreme Being might be like? And how that Supreme Being might act? If he didn't really walk in the garden with Adam, if he didn't flood the world, if he didn't destroy cities with fire and brimstone, if he didn't part the seas, if he didn't speak from heaven, and if he didn't resurrect Jesus, then what did God do that was real?

 

[CG Didymus]

That may be true, but when people claim they know that reality, it's just their belief. They don't really know.

So reality isn't contradictory. But... what people believe to be real is just a belief? Then different people can have a belief in contradictory realities?

 

[CG Didymus]

It boggles my imagination how so many people could believe that Jesus rose from the dead and floated up into the sky

And again, what scientific knowledge was there 2000 years ago that would have convinced people that Jesus couldn't have come back to life and then "float" off into the sky? If you'd read the NT, you'd know that is exactly what they are claiming. It fooled people back then. It's still fooling people even today. Fortunately, we're too sophisticated to be fooled by such nonsense. No wait, Baha'is believe in the Bible and the NT... never mind.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not logical because it is all or nothing thinking. Just because God does not care if everyone believes in His Messenger that does not mean God does not care if anyone believes in Him. There is a reason for Messengers because some people will believe in them, enough people to get the religion off the ground. The after a while many more will hop on board. This is the pattern we see in religious history. Most people do not like the new Messenger at first, especially if he is different from the other Messengers, and especially if He brings new teachings and laws and a new message that is very different from what their religion teaches. Only a few people will swim against the tide and blaze new trails, like a Trailblazer.

And that is another good point. Miracles are only proof for those who witness them. Even now, with mass communications, miracles could not be performed for all to see. Many Christians believe that when Jesus returns he will appear in the sky for all to see, but how is this possible if He returns at one location? I guess they did not really think this through.

Oh, but God is omnipotent so God can do anything! This is the answer I usually get... And people wonder why I prefer posting to atheists, and now I add polytheists to my list....

So in the next world, the spiritual world, everyone will know God. Only in this world God wanted to create creatures that he couldn't communicate directly with? But, put in them a soul/spirit, or what ever you believe it is, then that poor spirit gets put either close to God or far from God depending how well that physical body did at being Holy?

 

[CG Didymus]

The real God is not going to intervene and help people grow spiritually. God gave us that job to do ourselves.
You cannot judge God by how people live. That is so illogical. Humans have free will so they are responsible for their own actions.

If we build some kind of robot/android being... would we give it free will? And the knowledge to build weapons of mass destruction? I think that other people would be a little upset with our irresponsibility.

But wait, just think if we put them all on a planet and only gave them advice on how to live every 1000 years or so. Who they gonna hurt, just each other. No big deal. Naturally, we never communicated with them directly. We would send them a being that looked like them, but was special... something that we did communicate with directly. And then told that being to go tell the other beings what to do. Of course, every being we sent them had a message slightly different than the previous one. That way we could test them, to see which ones were going to believe in the new messenger being, and who would be stuck holding on to old outdated information.Now, since we gave them free will, would it really surprise us that they were destroying each other and the planet we put them on?

But, we're not done messing with them, I mean teasing, did I say that? I mean "testing" them. So now, what if we gave them something like our water and our air... something they needed to survive. And in that stuff, we put things that got them to malfunction or could even cause them to fall apart and disintegrate. Kind of like how people die. Kind of like how people have died from things in the air and the water. Things that God put in the air and water but didn't tell people about. Things that people had to find out on their own. What if we did that to our creation? And then, we expected them to love us?

But then, what if we made the planet they lived on? And we made all kinds of things on that planet that would destroy our creatures? Kind of like how God made the Earth with hurricanes, volcanoes, earthquakes and all those things? And then, we told our creatures how much we loved them... not directly, but only through our "messenger" beings. Do you really think they'd believe us? Do you really think they'd believe them?

But, that's not all we did. We promised them they'd live forever... in the cloud. To prove it, one of our messengers we let get destroyed. Then, we regenerated it. Then, transported it into the sky and loaded it onto a spaceship and brought it back to Earth with us to prove, once and for all, we were telling the truth... they could live forever.

Later, though, it was sad, but the planet was wearing down so we had no choice but to blew it up. No big deal... they were only metal and plastic with wires and hydraulics and a computer chip. Kind of like how we are just a bunch of bones and flesh and a heart and a brain. And all that stuff is just atoms. Except our soul/spirit... what's that made out of? I mean scientifically? Since if we can't prove it exists by science, it can't be real, right? No, wait... we can't prove God either, can we?

 

[CG Didymus]

Independent investigation of truth does not include looking at old scriptures because the truth for this age is in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. But IF I was going to spend my time reading other religious scriptures, I would first read the Qur'an and then the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.

Think about it from this perspective. The world is only 33% Christian and 0.2% Jewish, which means that two thirds of the world population does not believe in the Bible. 22% of the world population is Muslims, 14% of the world population is Hindus, and 8% is Buddhists. I consider it completely disrespectful to those other major religions to put the Bible up on a pedestal, as if it is the only religious scripture, the only Word of God. That is just so arrogant.

I have no interest in the Bible and I have no reason to read it unless I am looking something up because of a discussion I am having with a Christian. I am not the other Baha'is and I do not cherry pick the Bible to prove anything. All I do is refer to prophecies that prove that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be if I am in a discussion about that.

There is no contest between the Bible and the Writings of Baha'u'llah. The former was revealed for thousands of years ago and the latter was revealed for the present age. That is now I view it and how I will continue to view it because it is logical.

Yes, the Bible is filled crazy, unbelievable stories. Almost like it is a fairytale... or myth. But, that's not what Baha'is say. It is the "greatest"? Greatest what? Testimony? Testimony of what... if the stories aren't real, if they are only "symbolic", then really a testimony of things that didn't really happen?

 

[Trailblazer]

Other beliefs don't bother me much, unless it's openly rude and derogatory to another person's belief. Hurling insults doesn't help. I think it's wise not to speak of another person's belief system, except to offer another POV when only one is presented.

You are right about what is wise but I am an imperfect person so sometimes I feel the need to say what is on my mind, because some beliefs bother me so much.

You would make a better Baha’i than me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. The ONLY SALIENT POINT is that some people seem to think that God is using them as Messengers, and some other people, for reasons known only to themselves, believe them.

That is a legitimate point. Not all people are going to believe they are Messengers of God. I understand that very well since I have been posting to atheists about this for five years.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well... yes? Humans do this constantly. We're storytellers. Understand that "myth" really doesn't mean "not real" and certainly not "lie." They are stories we tell about the world that help us relate to it, reconcile with it, and give our lives meaning. All humans do this such that it isn't really a question of "is it okay" to my mind, but recognizing it's an inevitable facet of who we are as a species.

I understand what you mean within this context. Myths can be used to convey spiritual truths, and many of those can be found in the Bible, for example. Stories we tell can give our lives meaning. However, I do not want to believe in a God unless He is real. The fact that I cannot prove God is real is of no consequence to me. I can know without proof.

To clarify, I don't mean to say the gods are entirely projections. What we deify in the world is a choice. The things we deify exist regardless of whether or not humans put the word "god" to them. That our maps are constructs doesn't mean the territory is. Am I making sense?

I am a little lost. The part I do not understand is what you mean by “what we deify.” I do not know what you mean by that.

I was brief in part because I didn't want to get into it, but the short version? Appealing to Abrahamic monotheisms is not going to be compelling to me as someone who isn't an adherent of any of those traditions. I also have zero trouble understanding the appeal of polytheism as a polytheist, even if you have difficulty.

So, we are on opposite sides of the fence. I think you understand what is on both sides of the fence but I only understand monotheism. I do not think the fence needs to separate us as people. We can accept one another for who we are even if we do agree on beliefs.

For me, religion is not about what appeals to me, it is about what I believe is the truth from God. The BIG GOD of monotheism is not always that appealing to me, but I try to accept Him since I believe He is the one Power Who exercises undisputed sovereignty over the world of being,

That said, I cannot understand the appeal of polytheism since I hardly know anything about it. All I know is that polytheists believe in more than one God.

I don't conceptualize religions in that fashion, so that's not a question I ask. Some of that is because I don't conceptualize religion as a "belief system" like many Abrahamics do. In polytheistic traditions, there's more emphasis put on practice, and practices really aren't "true" or "false." You just do them.

I am not sure what you mean by *practices.* Do you mean daily routines or deeds in general? I think that deeds are more important than beliefs. The importance of deeds is embedded in the Baha’i teachings.

“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily his death is better than his life.”
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156​

You don't have to. Each to their own flavor of theism. Polytheism isn't for you. I can't comprehend how someone could value and worship only one thing (monotheism) either.

I cannot comprehend how someone could value and worship many gods, but that is because I have no idea how that plays out in practice.

Guess what? I value the One God because of what I believe about Him but I have *issues* with the idea of worshiping Him. I understand why I am called to do so but I have difficulty with the practices such as prayer. I guess I am not your typical monotheist. Of course I was not raised in any religion or to believe in God at all, so that is probably why it is difficult for me to relate to God on an emotional level. Rather, God is simply an Entity that exists *somewhere out there*.

 

[Workman]

Basically, I am an atheist right, so I would like for you to explain to me why your god is real and use facts not opinions, please.

There are 2(to) things that everything in existent holds within itself..Good & Bad.
ex. Pen(You use to write good, or use to write bad),
Baseball bat (Use to play ball or use as a weapon),
Cigarette(use for bad health or do not use at all for the good)
Everything has the 2(to) causes, or be lead by it..
becoming your intentions!
For There are two Gods,
-The One True God is Good.
-the other God it is evil(bad).
My God is real because my life is good. That’s a fact!
If neither Gods, then LOST you will be,
Becoming ONLY a man of Questions.

YOU decide which is real?

 

[Vinayaka]

You would make a better Baha’i than me.

I could never be a Baha'i'. It makes no sense to me. All Baha'i are better Baha'i than I could ever be. They'd ask me not to return ever again after the first meeting.

 

[Trailblazer]

I could never be a Baha'i'. It makes no sense to me. All Baha'i are better Baha'i than I could ever be. They'd ask me not to return ever again after the first meeting.

I meant that you live the teachings better than me, not necessarily that you would "fit in."
I do not fit in either.....

 

[Vinayaka]

I meant that you live the teachings better than me, not necessarily that you would "fit in."
I do not fit in either.....

I don't live the teachings at all, as the main Baha'i teaching is to 'spread the word'. I could never go around trying to convince others to come around my way. I'd be a horrible used car salesman, because I'd tell the customer they're getting totally ripped off.

 

[Quintessence]

I understand what you mean within this context. Myths can be used to convey spiritual truths, and many of those can be found in the Bible, for example. Stories we tell can give our lives meaning. However, I do not want to believe in a God unless He is real. The fact that I cannot prove God is real is of no consequence to me. I can know without proof.

Fair enough. I simplify things by never asking if something is real. If I can ask that question, the answer is already "yes" because I do not constrain "real" to the narrower parameters that seem common in my surrounding culture. In a way, I cheat around the question.

I am a little lost. The part I do not understand is what you mean by “what we deify.” I do not know what you mean by that.

By "what we deify" I simply mean that which folks call a god. Something is a god because humans apply the word god to it - that is deification. Cultures and individuals differ on what they belief qualifies as a god, or what they deify. The reasons why they deify something can vary too, as do the attributes of the things they deify. The main common denominator I've found studying various types of theism is that people deify that which they value or hold in high regard. Another way of saying that is gods are that which we find worthy of worship. In the context of the question the opening post asks, gods are real for human cultures so long as there are people around engaging in deification - labeling things as gods. Whether or not one considers what they deify as "real" or not is up to one's own personal ontological philosophies.

So, we are on opposite sides of the fence. I think you understand what is on both sides of the fence but I only understand monotheism. I do not think the fence needs to separate us as people. We can accept one another for who we are even if we do agree on beliefs.

Yes, I find strength through diversity. If everyone was the same as me, that would be really boring. And creepy.

For me, religion is not about what appeals to me, it is about what I believe is the truth from God.

I'd wager it's a combination of these things for most folks. We follow the path that is consistent with our experiences of the world up to the present. Certainly, I feel the path I follow is true as well... though I'm not of the sentiment that it is "The Truth" (the only way or exclusively correct way to view things).

I am not sure what you mean by *practices.* Do you mean daily routines or deeds in general?

It incorporates that, yes. To give an example from my own tradition, Druidry in general is pretty nature-centered. If nature isn't outright deified, it's certainly held in high regard. In terms of practice, that means studying nature through sciences, folklore, and direct experience. It also means practicing environmentalism and holding to an ecocentric (rather than anthropocentric) ethical standard. There's also little things that to others, don't seem religious at all. Like snowflake watching and dancing in the snow... something I will totally to today once the Lady of Winter graces us with Her presence.

I cannot comprehend how someone could value and worship many gods, but that is because I have no idea how that plays out in practice.

To use a simple analogy? Think about movies. Do you only watch one movie? Probably not. You watch lots of movies, because you like many different kinds of movies and there are many good movies out there. If you can comprehend wanting to watch more than one movie for the rest of your life, you can comprehend something of why someone can't limit themselves to only regarding one thing in the entire universe as worthy of worship. There's more to it than that, granted.