Do Baha'i believe Jesus or the Holy Spirit can cure the Leper?

[Dawnofhope]

Hi @Niblo

Thank you again for your post and acknowledging it is the Muslims, not the Baha'is who regard the Gospels and Torah as corrupted. You raised interesting points about scholarly concerns and discussions about both the Torah and Gospels. However none of the points raised would lead us to question the authenticity of the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ. Do bear in mind that we are not taking about a miracle here like the resurrection narrative which you seem to accept despite the acount inextricably interwoven the crucifixion. Historians, including atheists unanimously agree Jesus was crucified, other than those who believe Jesus never existed in the first place. No Muslim has ever produced any convincing evidence that Jesus wasn't crucified to Christians or a Baha'is. The sole basis of their belief are two verses from the Holy Quran that read:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

No Baha'i rejects these verses but would interpret them metaphorically. Essentially Muhammad is saying they did not kill Jesus's Spirit and in crucifying Him He was Glorified and raised to heaven.

Christians and Baha'is, unlike many Muslims are free to openly question and discuss issues such as these without fear of ostracism from their communities.

You have written to another above:

"The Qur’an makes it clear that Yeshua a) was not crucified; and b) did not die. Adrian rejects both of these, in favour of the Gospels. This tells me that there is one Baha'i who rejects at least part of the Qur’an!"

I wish to make it known that these verses from the Quran do not make it clear at all Jesus was 'not crucified' and I do not reject that part of the Quran, or any part of the Quran.

The evidence in favour of the crucifixion of Christ from the accounts in the New Testament and from historians is overwhelming.

The earliest detailed accounts of the death of Jesus are contained in the four canonical gospels. There are other, more implicit references in the New Testament epistles. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus predicts his death in three separate places. All four Gospels conclude with an extended narrative of Jesus' arrest, initial trial at the Sandhedrin and final trial at Pilate's court, where Jesus is flogged, condemned to death, is led to the place of crucifixion initially carrying his cross before Roman soldiers induce Simon of Cyrene to carry it, and then Jesus is crucified, entombed, and resurrected from the dead. His death is described as a sacrifice in the Gospels and other books of the New Testament.[22] In each Gospel these five events in the life of Jesus are treated with more intense detail than any other portion of that Gospel's narrative. Scholars note that the reader receives an almost hour-by-hour account of what is happening.

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia

The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[9][10] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[9] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[11] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[12] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[13] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[4] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[14]

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
So it is indubitably clear that Muslims reject large portions of the Gospels despite its mention and exaltation within at least 12 passages in the Holy Quran. In doing so the contradiction is created that God having revealed the Gospel or Truth then deprived the Christians of that same Gospel for nearly 600 years until Muhammad's revelation. What Just and Loving Creator would conceive of such a thing! To the contrary the Gospel is Divinely inspired and was under God's protection. It is Muslims who have erred from the clear text of both the Quran and Gospels.

 

[Niblo]

Hi @Niblo

Thank you again for your post and acknowledging it is the Muslims, not the Baha'is who regard the Gospels and Torah as corrupted. You raised interesting and points about scholarly concerns and discussions about both the Torah and Gospels. However none of the points raised would lead us to question the authenticity of the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion of Christ. Do bear in mind that we are not taking about a miracle here like the resurrection narrative which you seem to accept despite the acount inextricably interwoven the crucifixion. Historians, including atheists are unanimously also agreed Jesus was crucified, other than those who believe Jesus never existed in the first place. No Muslim has ever produced any convincing evidence that Jesus wasn't crucified to a Christian or a Baha'i. The sole basis of their belief are two verses from the Holy Quran that read:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa) ayat 157–158

Islamic views on Jesus' death - Wikipedia

No Baha'i rejects these verses but would interpret them metaphorically. Essentially Muhammad is saying they did not kill Jesus's Spirit and in crucifying Him He was Glorified and raised to heaven.

Christians and Baha'is, unlike many Muslims are free to openly question and discuss issues such as these without fear of rejection and ostracism from their communities.

You have written to another above:

"The Qur’an makes it clear that Yeshua a) was not crucified; and b) did not die. Adrian rejects both of these, in favour of the Gospels. This tells me that there is one Baha'i who rejects at least part of the Qur’an!"

I wish to make it known that these verses from the Quran do not make it clear at all Jesus was not crucified and I do not reject that part of the Quran, or any part of the Quran.

The evidence in favour of the crucifixion of Christ from the accounts in the New Testament and from historians is overwhelming.

The earliest detailed accounts of the death of Jesus are contained in the four canonical gospels. There are other, more implicit references in the New Testament epistles. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus predicts his death in three separate places. All four Gospels conclude with an extended narrative of Jesus' arrest, initial trial at the Sandhedrin and final trial at Pilate's court, where Jesus is flogged, condemned to death, is led to the place of crucifixion initially carrying his cross before Roman soldiers induce Simon of Cyrene to carry it, and then Jesus is crucified, entombed, and resurrected from the dead. His death is described as a sacrifice in the Gospels and other books of the New Testament.[22] In each Gospel these five events in the life of Jesus are treated with more intense detail than any other portion of that Gospel's narrative. Scholars note that the reader receives an almost hour-by-hour account of what is happening.

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia

The baptism of Jesus and his crucifixion are considered to be two historically certain facts about Jesus.[9][10] James Dunn states that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent" and "rank so high on the 'almost impossible to doubt or deny' scale of historical facts" that they are often the starting points for the study of the historical Jesus.[9] Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[11] John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[12] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[13] Craig Blomberg states that most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[4] Christopher M. Tuckett states that, although the exact reasons for the death of Jesus are hard to determine, one of the indisputable facts about him is that he was crucified.[14]

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia
So it is indubitably clear that Muslims reject large portions of the Gospels despite its mention and exaltation within at least 12 passages in the Holy Quran. In doing so the contradiction is created that God having revealed the Gospel or Truth then deprived the Christians of that same Gospel for nearly 600 years until Muhammad's revelation. What Just and Loving Creator would conceive of such a thing! To the contrary the Gospel is Divinely inspired and was under God's protection. It is Muslims who have erred from the clear text of both the Quran and Gospels.

You write: 'Historians, including atheists are unanimously agreed that Jesus was crucified, other than those who believe Jesus never existed in the first place'.

Read again my third post of Dec 23rd.

The folk I name are but a few of those who deny the existence of Yeshua, and by default the crucifixion. None are Muslims. You really do need to read their books, especially Price and Loftus - former evangelical pastors - and Carrier, a Biblical historian.

You claim - as a Baha'i - to believe all of the Qur'an and each of the Gospels. This is impossible.

A) Was Yeshua crucified or not?

B) Did he arise from the tomb or not?

C) Which account of his birth is correct: the Gospel account or the Qur'anic account?

The Qur'an contradicts the Gospels in every case. Which Book is telling the truth?

The Muslim attitude towards the Bible is this:

Where it agrees with the Qur'an...no problem.

Where there is disagreement...the Qur'an takes precedence.

Where there is neither agreement nor disagreement, the Exalted knows best.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Gospels:

The Arabic word ‘ʾInjīl’ is translated ‘Gospel’ by those writing in English. However, in the Qur’an the word is always in the singular, and is never used to describe the four Gospels of the New Testament.

There is no doubt that the New Testament Gospels were written decades after the lifetime of Yeshua, by anonymous authors who never met him. Therefore, they cannot be the ‘ʾInjīl’ mentioned in the Qur’an. The Exalted says: ‘We sent Yeshua, son of Mary, in their footsteps, to confirm the Torah that had been sent before him: We gave him the Gospel (ʾInjīl) with guidance, light, and confirmation of the Torah already revealed - a guide and lesson for those who take heed of Allāh.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 46).

It is quite clear from this verse that Yeshua was given the ʾInjīl (Gospel) complete; how else could it have been ‘a guidance, light and confirmation of the Torah’?

Concerning the Corruption of the ʾInjīl:

The argument provided that Muhammad who revealed the Quran from 610 to 632 AD refers to an extant Gospel is extremely weak IMHO. It appearsd a fabrication of Muslim scholars only. If it were really true that the Christians had a false gospel Muhammad would have made it clear. He didn't, but instead on occasion admonishes the Christians for not following it.

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). (Surah Al-Imran, 3)

"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, (Surah Al-Imran, 48)

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding? (Surah Al-Imran, 65)

And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 46)

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 47)

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side.There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 66)

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy|.But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith. (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 68)

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother.Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave.And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 110)

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them.So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." (Surah Al-A‘raf, 157)

Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah.then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. (Surah At-Tawba, 111)

Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward. (Surah Al-Fath, 29)

Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our apostles: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah. but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors. (Surah Al-Hadid, 27)

Scholarship of the Bible is to be welcomed. The fact is that the Gospels were all written between 66 to 100 AD so within 30 - 70 years of the crucifixion of Christ. The Gospel of John is likely to have been written by the apostle John but we can not be certain. It is likely that at least the synoptics whose authors collaborated were written by anonymous authors. All the early Christian writers/scholars were unanimous in thier acceptance and authenticity of the four gospels. Although the case for authenticity for the Gospels is not as strong as for the Quran, I have no problem accepting the authenticity of the Gospels in substance although we can not affirm every word written was the exact words Jesus spoke. It obviously suits the agenda of the Muslims to find as many holes as possible for the both the Gospel and Torah to reject them as corrupted as they have the Quran they see has superseded the Gospels. The Muslim position in regards the Gospels and Torah being corupt is well known and rightly rejected by most Christians and Baha'is IMHO.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You write: 'Historians, including atheists are unanimously agreed that Jesus was crucified, other than those who believe Jesus never existed in the first place'.

Read again my third post of Dec 23rd.

The folk I name are but a few of those who deny the existence of Yeshua, and by default the crucifixion. None are Muslims. You really do need to read their books, especially Price and Loftus - former evangelical pastors - and Carrier, a Biblical historian.

I'm familiar with Richard Carrier. He is an atheist who denies Jesus existed at all. Therein lies your problem. To deny the crucifixion of Christ you need to deny Christ existed at all. You really need a reputable historian who isn't a Muslim who believes Christ existed, that He was resurrected and He wasn't crucified and can provide good evidence this is the most likely scenario. Of course it is the least likely of all scenarios to be polite. Only Muslims will try to support this position. There are plenty of atheists that believe Jesus existed, was crucified and wasn't resurrected. There are even Muslims that believe Jesus was crucified.

You claim - as a Baha'i - to believe all of the Qur'an and each of the Gospels. This is impossible.

No it isn't.

A) Was Yeshua crucified or not?

No. The account in the Quran is metaphorical.

B) Did he arise from the tomb or not?

No. The account in the gospels is allegorical. Nor do Muslims believe it.

C) Which account of his birth is correct: the Gospel account or the Qur'anic account?

Jesus was born to a virgin Mary. He was not physically the 'son of god' as the Quran correctly states, but had the messianic designation 'Son of God' as the Gospels clearly relay.

A Baha'i perspective on Jesus as the 'Son of God'

The Qur'an contradicts the Gospels in every case. Which Book is telling the truth?

The Muslim attitude towards the Bible is this:

Where it agrees with the Qur'an...no problem.

Where there is disagreement...the Qur'an takes precedence.

However you phrase it, Muslims regard the Gospels and the Torah as corrupted, a position that Christians, Jews and Baha'is rightly reject.

Baha'is believe Muhammad was the Messenger of God and the Quran the authenticated repository of the Word of God. However Islam is hamstrung by its religious orthodoxy that prevents desperately needed self evaluation.

 

[Niblo]

[QUOTE="adrian009, post: 5923288, member: 54290"I.....[/QUOTE]

Hi Adrian,

Many thanks for your posts. Sorry for the delay, but I returned to work this week, and things are hectic (especially for an old geezer like me!). God willing, I'll return to your posts on Sunday. Thanks for your patience.

Very best regards, and have a great day.

God bless.

 

[CG Didymus]

No Baha'i rejects these verses but would interpret them metaphorically. Essentially Muhammad is saying they did not kill Jesus's Spirit and in crucifying Him He was Glorified and raised to heaven.

A rejection of a literal interpretation is still significant. Like if I said a baseball player, or cricket player or whatever you play down there, hit the ball a mile. People would still know I meant he hit it a long, long way. But what do you see as the "metaphor" in the gospels saying that Jesus rose from the dead and talked to people, ate with them and let them touch him? Since it is possible with God, why couldn't it be literal? Why do the Baha'is need it to be only symbolic?

Or, is that the easiest place to stop the what happened literally things and start with symbolic things? Since what's coming is him floating up into the clouds. However, even during the crucifixion story, lots of unusual events are said to have happened. God voice, Sun darkened, earthquakes, the curtain in the Temple torn in two, dead people coming out of their graves. All those things symbolic? But wrapped up in the telling of the crucifixion? So where do you stop making things symbolic? Pretty much all that's gonna be left is that Baha'is belief Jesus died on a cross. The rest is symbolic... and maybe even the cross is symbolic too.

 

[Dawnofhope]

A rejection of a literal interpretation is still significant. Like if I said a baseball player, or cricket player or whatever you play down there, hit the ball a mile. People would still know I meant he hit it a long, long way. But what do you see as the "metaphor" in the gospels saying that Jesus rose from the dead and talked to people, ate with them and let them touch him? Since it is possible with God, why couldn't it be literal? Why do the Baha'is need it to be only symbolic?

Or, is that the easiest place to stop the what happened literally things and start with symbolic things? Since what's coming is him floating up into the clouds. However, even during the crucifixion story, lots of unusual events are said to have happened. God voice, Sun darkened, earthquakes, the curtain in the Temple torn in two, dead people coming out of their graves. All those things symbolic? But wrapped up in the telling of the crucifixion? So where do you stop making things symbolic? Pretty much all that's gonna be left is that Baha'is belief Jesus died on a cross. The rest is symbolic... and maybe even the cross is symbolic too.

Anything that deviates even slightly from what a Muslim or Christian insists as being the truth is significant. We are all free to believe as we will. What do you believe about the the reality of Christ, His crucifixion and resurrection CG? Why does it matter so much to you?

The Baha’i Faith’s perspective is at least clear, allows for miracles, considers science, respects both the Gospels and Quran and respects those with different points of view.

 

[CG Didymus]

Anything that deviates even slightly from what a Muslim or Christian insists as being the truth is significant. We are all free to believe as we will. What do you believe about the the reality of Christ, His crucifixion and resurrection CG? Why does it matter so much to you?

The Baha’i Faith’s perspective is at least clear, allows for miracles, considers science, respects both the Gospels and Quran and respects those with different points of view.

If God is real, then the truth about God is the most important thing to know. Baha'is have either cleared everything... if their interpretations are right. Or, they have jumbled things up even more. Like I've continued to say, they didn't have the benefit of modern science when the Bible, the NT and Quran were written. I feel they were written to be taken as the truth. Problematic verses had to be interpreted by the religious leaders of those religions. Baha'is go beyond the problematic verses and give new interpretations to simple and clearly stated verses.

Healings fall into those things that the NT states simply and clearly. Jesus came across someone that was blind or was crippled or had leprosy, or had even died. The story says Jesus healed them, and, with the ones that had died, had brought them back to life. But, does it really matter if you concede that the healing of a leper really happened, and deny that Jesus rose from the dead? Since, Jesus had the power of the Creator God behind him, then what he can do goes beyond science. That is, if God and Jesus, as described in the NT, is real.

I think the stories could be very much exaggerated. Then what? What do we really know about God and Jesus? Then, the NT is not a trustworthy source of information about God and Jesus. As you like to point out, the gospel might not have been written by eye witnesses. Then why is it called the "Word of God" and not "The words of what some men thought about who God and Jesus were?" And then we could add, "With some fictional, symbolic stories mixed in to spice things up and make Jesus sound like he's God in the flesh."

There is also another thing you like to say a lot... that we are "free" to believe whatever we want. That kind of implies that a person can go ahead and believe things that aren't real and that aren't true, that you're not going to force them. But, in reality, Baha'is have the only real truth. I don't know of one religion that Baha'is believe is teaching the truth. So what are you saying when you tell people that disagree with you and the Baha'i Faith are "free" to believe what they want?

One Baha'i has said a few times that the Bible has been edited and redacted. Did God do the editing? Did the manifestation? Did the manifestation actually do any of the writing? In fact, Baha'is have posted official quotes saying that the Bible is not 100% authentic. So you can say you allow for miracles and that you believe in the Bible and respect those with different points of view. But that is so easy to say. The reality is... you know they are wrong, because they disagree with The Truth... The one and only real Truth... and that is your Truth, the one that came from the Baha'i teachings. Whether you are right or wrong, it matters quite a bit. Whether Christians are right or wrong, matters quite a bit. How would I know... unless I ask those that believe their religions has all the answers?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If God is real, then the truth about God is the most important thing to know. Baha'is have either cleared everything... if their interpretations are right. Or, they have jumbled things up even more.

That is the choice we have. I made mine back in 1984 and it has only got clearer.

You must look at all this and decide. That is life.

Have a look at prophecy for Mt Carmel in the last days. Either I just went on Pilgrimage to that fulfillment or not. Tell me how possibly else can a Faith be in the Holy Land, without being of God?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There is also another thing you like to say a lot... that we are "free" to believe whatever we want. That kind of implies that a person can go ahead and believe things that aren't real and that aren't true, that you're not going to force them. But, in reality, Baha'is have the only real truth. I don't know of one religion that Baha'is believe is teaching the truth. So what are you saying when you tell people that disagree with you and the Baha'i Faith are "free" to believe what they want?

Muhammad showed this was a firm teaching from God in the Quran. It is applicable to our choices.

Al-Baqara 256 - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One Baha'i has said a few times that the Bible has been edited and redacted. Did God do the editing? Did the manifestation? Did the manifestation actually do any of the writing? In fact, Baha'is have posted official quotes saying that the Bible is not 100% authentic.

It has been said many times that the Bible contains the Word of God and is a reliable source of spiritual guidance.

Trailblazer has given you quite a few thoughts on this I have noted.

One must consider we can read the Bible with the Keys given by Baha'u'llah, as such it clears up a lot of quandries that had arisen by past interpretation from man. The Baha'i Writings show how the Bible is reliable. While one still puts all the incorrect doctrine, the muddy waters into the clear water, the water will always be cloudy.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How would I know... unless I ask those that believe their religions has all the answers?

One must ask God when a crossroad is reached. That is what I have found in life.

Some of the paths then taken were not easy and in life everything was lost, but in Faith much was gained.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

If God is real, then the truth about God is the most important thing to know. Baha'is have either cleared everything... if their interpretations are right. Or, they have jumbled things up even more. Like I've continued to say, they didn't have the benefit of modern science when the Bible, the NT and Quran were written. I feel they were written to be taken as the truth. Problematic verses had to be interpreted by the religious leaders of those religions. Baha'is go beyond the problematic verses and give new interpretations to simple and clearly stated verses.

God is an unknowable essence for Baha’is. We can never fully comprehend the nature of God no matter how keen our intellect or how developed our power of spiritual perception.

For me the Baha’i perspective resolves key dilemmas regarding the nature of God, the Great Educators that have gone before and what God requires of us today.

Baha’is do draw a line in the sand. The spiritual significance of the resurrection is affirmed but a literal physical resurrection is denied. Jesus was crucified as recorded in the Gospels. Jesus was a man, the ‘Son of God’ and a Manifestation of God. So we are not neutral about some key theological issues for all the Abrahamic Faiths.

Healings fall into those things that the NT states simply and clearly. Jesus came across someone that was blind or was crippled or had leprosy, or had even died. The story says Jesus healed them, and, with the ones that had died, had brought them back to life. But, does it really matter if you concede that the healing of a leper really happened, and deny that Jesus rose from the dead? Since, Jesus had the power of the Creator God behind him, then what he can do goes beyond science. That is, if God and Jesus, as described in the NT, is real.

It matters whether or not we have a clear and coherent worldview. God is not the author of confusion.

I think the stories could be very much exaggerated. Then what? What do we really know about God and Jesus? Then, the NT is not a trustworthy source of information about God and Jesus. As you like to point out, the gospel might not have been written by eye witnesses. Then why is it called the "Word of God" and not "The words of what some men thought about who God and Jesus were?" And then we could add, "With some fictional, symbolic stories mixed in to spice things up and make Jesus sound like he's God in the flesh."

The Gospels and Torah are important. They are an essential part of God’s Revelation to man over the last six thousand years. They are ancient texts and have been the source of more scholarly debate and discussion than any other book over the last two thousand years. They represent works that have been revealed from the time of Moses to Christ. Of course it’s not going to be straightforward. According to the Baha’i writings the Gospels and Torah are authentic in substance but we can not know for certain that every word recorded is the exact words Jesus or Moses spoke. However the books are protected by God and all that God wished to convey are part of the text. They are not all to be taken literally.

There is also another thing you like to say a lot... that we are "free" to believe whatever we want. That kind of implies that a person can go ahead and believe things that aren't real and that aren't true, that you're not going to force them. But, in reality, Baha'is have the only real truth. I don't know of one religion that Baha'is believe is teaching the truth. So what are you saying when you tell people that disagree with you and the Baha'i Faith are "free" to believe what they want?

Baha’is simply present a world view that others are free to accept or reject. Every religion presents a worldview. We all choose a perspective that makes the most sense. That is a fundamental aspect of being humans. We have free will and freedom to choose what makes the most sense and what truly connects with our hearts.

One Baha'i has said a few times that the Bible has been edited and redacted. Did God do the editing? Did the manifestation? Did the manifestation actually do any of the writing? In fact, Baha'is have posted official quotes saying that the Bible is not 100% authentic. So you can say you allow for miracles and that you believe in the Bible and respect those with different points of view. But that is so easy to say. The reality is... you know they are wrong, because they disagree with The Truth... The one and only real Truth... and that is your Truth, the one that came from the Baha'i teachings. Whether you are right or wrong, it matters quite a bit. Whether Christians are right or wrong, matters quite a bit. How would I know... unless I ask those that believe their religions has all the answers?

You have been talking to Baha’is for many years. Have we ever stopped talking to you, shunned you or been unkind? It does not affect God whether you or I are Baha’is or not. If Bahá’u’lláh is the Manifestation of God for this age then recognising Him and following Him are the two most important steps either of us can take with the short time we have on earth.

 

[CG Didymus]

It has been said many times that the Bible contains the Word of God and is a reliable source of spiritual guidance.

Trailblazer has given you quite a few thoughts on this I have noted.

One must consider we can read the Bible with the Keys given by Baha'u'llah, as such it clears up a lot of quandries that had arisen by past interpretation from man. The Baha'i Writings show how the Bible is reliable. While one still puts all the incorrect doctrine, the muddy waters into the clear water, the water will always be cloudy.

Regards Tony

Tony, thanks for the posts. But, not all "quandaries" are because of past interpretation. Lots of the problems are from the words of the Jewish Bible and the Christian NT. In another thread we're discussing the problem with a literal interpretation of Noah and the Flood. The story is clear. Noah lived 950 years. He and his family were the only human survivors of a world-wide flood. What's there to interpret? Other than it's totally improbable that Noah was that old and there was a world-wide flood. Now comes the interpretations. How did the Baha'is clear the water?

Then the thing about Jesus and his healings. Baha'is have said that the "spiritual" healing of the soul is more important. Well, Jesus did that too. But the NT clearly says he healed people and raised a couple of people from the dead. At least one Baha'is has said that Lazarus was "spiritually" dead and that Jesus brought to life "spiritually". Well, he probably did... but along with allegedly bringing him back to life. The story is clear, no mud. How has the Baha'i interpretation cleared things up?

Baha'is, maybe, have cleared the way for people that don't want to or can't believe the Bible and the NT literally. Baha'is have given them a way to "believe" without believing the literal stories in the Bible and the NT. At the same time, though, Baha'is have made those that do take the Bible and the NT literal as the ones that have it wrong... as the ones that have misinterpreted the plain words in the stories. Baha'is then imply that the whole Bible and NT is "proverbs" or "parables" or "symbolic" or that the words have been "sealed" until Baha'u'llah gave the true interpretation.

The two biggest issues for me is that Baha'is claim someone changed the Bible to say that Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. Is there any proof of such a thing? Did all scribes collude together to make this change? Did the people that remembered the "true", supposedly, story that it was Ishmael just sit back and say nothing? Were all the Bible that contained the Ishmael story destroyed? The second is Jesus coming back to life. So many things happen in the resurrection stories. People going to the tomb. People seeing Jesus alive. Then, the big one, he says to touch him and see that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. How does Baha'u'llah explain that? Or does he?

For all the great things that Baha'is say and do, when it comes down to tying up all the very loose ends, they don't do a very good job of it. To blow off the resurrection of Jesus as a "symbolic" story isn't much of an answer. It doesn't clear anything up. It only muddies the waters even more by making most Christians fools for believing the NT stories as literal.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha’is simply present a world view that others are free to accept or reject. Every religion presents a worldview. We all choose a perspective that makes the most sense. That is a fundamental aspect of being humans. We have free will and freedom to choose what makes the most sense and what truly connects with our hearts.

In ancient times how much "free will" did people have in choosing their religion? What choice did early Christians give to the people they were teaching? It was come to Jesus and have eternal life or don't believe and burn in hell. Now, we have choice. Now, we can compare the different religions. And still, lots of religions are saying that to not choose theirs is the wrong choice... but that they are "free" to do so. That's not a choice. That's saying "Yeah, you can turn away, but it would be a stupid choice."

You have been talking to Baha’is for many years. Have we ever stopped talking to you, shunned you or been unkind? It does not affect God whether you or I are Baha’is or not. If Bahá’u’lláh is the Manifestation of God for this age then recognising Him and following Him are the two most important steps either of us can take with the short time we have on earth.

Well, there's a few of us that ask the Baha'is a lot of questions. But, are we wrong in asking the things we are asking? Have Baha'is given clear answers to these things? Or, is there some discrepancy in what Baha'is say is true and what others say is true?

And, as far as being the most important decision one can make... what about those that choose Judaism? Or, Buddhism? Or, Christianity? Or, Hinduism? If the Baha'is are correct, those people are believing religions that have lost "The Truth". They all teach things that Baha'is say are not true. And don't Baha'is even go so far to say that they are following "traditions of men" and not God? There is no other choice... if Baha'is are right. The other religions are wrong and teach false things about God and the Truth from God. So, naturally, people from the other religions are going to challenge Baha'i teachings. Yet, one Baha'i said that one person had a "vendetta" against the Baha'is. And, I don't know what Baha'is have said about Muslims and Christians that have disputed Baha'i beliefs. So you might not "shun" them or be "unkind" directly, but what about indirectly? 'Cause, after all, Baha'is are saying that the things they believe are false. And, after a while, they just give up. Is that the desired result? Or, do Baha'is want to build bridges of understanding? I know you try to. Do you think you're being successful?

 

[Vinayaka]

In ancient times how much "free will" did people have in choosing their religion? What choice did early Christians give to the people they were teaching? It was come to Jesus and have eternal life or don't believe and burn in hell. Now, we have choice. Now, we can compare the different religions. And still, lots of religions are saying that to not choose theirs is the wrong choice... but that they are "free" to do so. That's not a choice. That's saying "Yeah, you can turn away, but it would be a stupid choice."
Well, there's a few of us that ask the Baha'is a lot of questions. But, are we wrong in asking the things we are asking? Have Baha'is given clear answers to these things? Or, is there some discrepancy in what Baha'is say is true and what others say is true?

And, as far as being the most important decision one can make... what about those that choose Judaism? Or, Buddhism? Or, Christianity? Or, Hinduism? If the Baha'is are correct, those people are believing religions that have lost "The Truth". They all teach things that Baha'is say are not true. And don't Baha'is even go so far to say that they are following "traditions of men" and not God? There is no other choice... if Baha'is are right. The other religions are wrong and teach false things about God and the Truth from God. So, naturally, people from the other religions are going to challenge Baha'i teachings. Yet, one Baha'i said that one person had a "vendetta" against the Baha'is. And, I don't know what Baha'is have said about Muslims and Christians that have disputed Baha'i beliefs. So you might not "shun" them or be "unkind" directly, but what about indirectly? 'Cause, after all, Baha'is are saying that the things they believe are false. And, after a while, they just give up. Is that the desired result? Or, do Baha'is want to build bridges of understanding? I know you try to. Do you think you're being successful?

Nice summary, I would say. I would add two points ... one is that in many religions we would just as soon see curious people of a particular nature just go somewhere else more suitable to them. Secondly, I really do think the internet evangelism has been more detrimental than helpful in spreading the word. Too many people like yourself question it ll, and there are no satisfactory answers. The reader and potential convert can only be thankful to you for doing the dirty work, so to speak. Sad because it might be useful for some folks. Definitely a step up from radical Islam.

But of course I'm wrong, because I have a vendetta.

 

[CG Didymus]

Nice summary, I would say. I would add two points ... one is that in many religions we would just as soon see curious people of a particular nature just go somewhere else more suitable to them. Secondly, I really do think the internet evangelism has been more detrimental than helpful in spreading the word. Too many people like yourself question it ll, and there are no satisfactory answers. The reader and potential convert can only be thankful to you for doing the dirty work, so to speak. Sad because it might be useful for some folks. Definitely a step up from radical Islam.

But of course I'm wrong, because I have a vendetta.

If I knew more about Hinduism I'd throw their interpretation of reincarnation back at them, but I know more about how and why Christians believe what they do. What was it? The "qualities" of a person come back in another person? Or, the usual, the belief in reincarnation was a misinterpretation of some thing the "manifestation" Krishna said. But, I'd imagine, reincarnation goes back before Krishna. But, for you, Baha'is can't use their interpretation of Krishna anyway. And, the lack of much of any Baha'i references to Hinduism. It kind of shows that Islam and Christianity were the main focus of Baha'u'llah's concern. So thanks again for being part of the discussion with the Baha'is. I've enjoyed your comments and wisdom immensely.

 

[Vinayaka]

If I knew more about Hinduism I'd throw their interpretation of reincarnation back at them, but I know more about how and why Christians believe what they do. What was it? The "qualities" of a person come back in another person? Or, the usual, the belief in reincarnation was a misinterpretation of some thing the "manifestation" Krishna said. But, I'd imagine, reincarnation goes back before Krishna. But, for you, Baha'is can't use their interpretation of Krishna anyway. And, the lack of much of any Baha'i references to Hinduism. It kind of shows that Islam and Christianity were the main focus of Baha'u'llah's concern. So thanks again for being part of the discussion with the Baha'is. I've enjoyed your comments and wisdom immensely.

Basically, from my experience, Baha'is know very very little about Hinduism. If they do, it's a very weird version they've invented to suit their agenda. Some here will admit that, while others hold onto the idea they know a lot. But the fact that Krishna is still considered and written here as a 'manifestation' means they most certainly haven't accepted Hinduism's version of Hinduism, which parallels that they haven't accepted the Islamic version of Islam, nor the Christian version of Christianity. Certainly despite it's surface tolerance, is really intolerant, even insulting. But you have already eloquently shown that many times over.

Baha'is main relationship to Hinduism is to bring them up to date, by sharing. 'Up to date' means accepting Baha'u'llah as the prophet of this age. Same old same old, but then I have a vendetta. I reckon they'd do a ton better if they didn't speak of other faiths at all.

 

[Dawnofhope]

In ancient times how much "free will" did people have in choosing their religion? What choice did early Christians give to the people they were teaching? It was come to Jesus and have eternal life or don't believe and burn in hell. Now, we have choice. Now, we can compare the different religions. And still, lots of religions are saying that to not choose theirs is the wrong choice... but that they are "free" to do so. That's not a choice. That's saying "Yeah, you can turn away, but it would be a stupid choice."

Life is too short to dwell too long on narrow-minded pettiness. We live in an age when we can learn more about the faith traditions of our own culture and of others easily. Those that wish to take the time and apply themselves can access talks and writings of world renowned scholars and teachers. The knowledge of God and His Prophets has been laid bare for all to see. If we are just and fair minded in our lives we can have eyes to see and know of our own knowledge and not the knowledge of our neighbour.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, there's a few of us that ask the Baha'is a lot of questions. But, are we wrong in asking the things we are asking? Have Baha'is given clear answers to these things? Or, is there some discrepancy in what Baha'is say is true and what others say is true?

The nineteen Baha'i months of the Badi calendar are named after attritudes of God including questions and knowledge.

Bahá'í calendar - Wikipedia

Baha'is also believe in purity of heart.

Purity of Heart | What Bahá’ís Believe

If our intent is to seek out the truth and be prepared to adhere to the outcome of that search no matter what, then our heart is pure.

If our intent is malace or mischief making then we attract negative forces to our being. We stray from the path and perceive the crooked to be straight.

And, as far as being the most important decision one can make... what about those that choose Judaism? Or, Buddhism? Or, Christianity? Or, Hinduism? If the Baha'is are correct, those people are believing religions that have lost "The Truth". They all teach things that Baha'is say are not true.

They all have truth and God's light is made manifest through each one of these Great Religions.

And don't Baha'is even go so far to say that they are following "traditions of men" and not God? There is no other choice... if Baha'is are right. The other religions are wrong and teach false things about God and the Truth from God.

I can only speak with confidence about Christianity and to a lesser extent Islam and Judaism. Christianity appears to have strayed from the essence of the Teachings of Christ. When Christ was asked the most important commandments He essentially quoted from Deuteronomy 6:5 and said to love God with our whole being. The second most important commandment was to love your neighbour and even enemies.

So, naturally, people from the other religions are going to challenge Baha'i teachings.

Of course. The Baha'i Faith makes extremely challenging and strong statements in regards prophetic fulfilment of past religions so it would be naive not to expect opposition.

Yet, one Baha'i said that one person had a "vendetta" against the Baha'is. And, I don't know what Baha'is have said about Muslims and Christians that have disputed Baha'i beliefs. So you might not "shun" them or be "unkind" directly, but what about indirectly? 'Cause, after all, Baha'is are saying that the things they believe are false. And, after a while, they just give up. Is that the desired result? Or, do Baha'is want to build bridges of understanding? I know you try to. Do you think you're being successful?

Discussions about religion are challenging depending on our motivation and perspective. There are definitely those who post against the Baha'i Faith who have clear antipathy. Abdu'l-Baha taught to love all, and see our foes as friends. He also said when two people argue about religion they both are wrong. Baha'u'llah said that conflict and contention are strictly prohibited. Sometimes its best to remain silent.

I've repeatedly stated I'm on RF to learn. I'm happy to have dialogue about matters of religion if there is mutual respect, courtesy and a willingness to be reasonable. Communication is always a two way street. We can only really change ourselves and that requires profound humility.