Yeah it kinda confuses me too how there's supposedly one God but everyone describes Him differently and even contradict others' description of Him. I'm more of an agnostic theist. I believe that some sort of higher power exists but I don't know who it is although it looks like Christians might have it right. I guess I believe because I find it hard not to believe that something is out there and because of the stories of personal experiences of God from believers.
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- Thread starter Jos
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I understand that but why did God create humans as finite beings?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You have stopped asking questions and started telling me your own ideas, such as insisting Genesis is an account of a physical creation.
Evolution is irrelevant to the discussion I think and a tangent, and if you are unfamiliar with how it was researched and why people accept it I can't fill that in without a huge derail of the thread. Lets just consider it irrelevant to the conversation. I simply objected to what physical creationists have said about the Bible. They don't know what they are talking about, and evolution can stand or fall on its own.
That is your own insistence which includes some assumptions. First you insist its an account of the physical world. Secondly you insist its written to anyone rather than to Jews. Its written to Jews, and its probably about the creation of Israel and only later interpreted to be about an extended idea of Israel apart from its physical land. So its as if you have taken half of someone else's phone call, printed it and sold it as a factual memo written to yourself. Its not, and its only half of a conversation.
That is insisting God is physical, insisting God respects individuals over other individuals and putting it to me that the Bible is a book when its a library of books all of which are listed in the index of every copy. I have already pointed out that one of those books, Job, does not agree with other books in the Bible about rewards and punishment. To say this library is perfect requires evidence that it is or else a lowering of standards. If its perfect then it should have perfect results when someone reads it -- or is that too high of a standard?
Why do you say that?
Jesus was a physical person wasn't He and He was God right?
Weren't the Jews His chosen people?
It's been said that God is perfect and that the Word of God is God Himself so why wouldn't the Bible be perfect? Isn't there a scripture that says all scripture is God breathed?
I don't know what inspired means to you, but someone might be inspired by a painting to write a critique about it. A song might inspire you to dance.
The Bible talks about dreams and visions. It doesn't say the Bible was dictated by God. You were inspired by concepts of God to post questions.
Why didn't God give man "perfect" understanding. Not knowing the motivations of God I can only guess. I suspect to allow us to make choices. Lets say you had perfect knowledge. You would always do exactly the correct thing. There'd be no reason to do anything else because you'd know what you wanted to accomplish and exactly what you need to do to accomplish it. You'd basically be a robot with no freedom of choice.
I suspect God didn't want to create a bunch of robots.
Now, this is one of those points......"finite" is "mortal"..."not permanent".....right?
Does being mortal mean that we "must" die? ...or only that we "can" if the circumstances warrant it?
Adam was told that they would "surely die"...but only if they ate the fruit. It wasn't poisonous or life threatening in itself, but it represented an activity that carried the death penalty. There was no other activity mentioned that could cause death.....in fact "the tree of life" was there in the garden too, as a contrast. Eating of that fruit meant everlasting life. (Genesis 3:22-24) It is one of the reasons why they were evicted from the garden. No longer having access to the one thing that could keep them living indefinitely, they would begin to age and their bodies would have degenerated, succumbing to sickness and finally death.
Have you ever considered that God intended man to live forever on earth?
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It does say in the New Testament that all scripture is God breathed though.
At this point I don't care if I would have been a robot but anyway, God has perfect knowledge, is He a robot?
I think it means you'll inevitably perish
Yeah but why didn't He just nor create a tree of knowledge of good and evil if He didn't want them knowing good from evil?
I don't know the exact scriptures but He said He and the Father are one and that if you've seen Him, you've seen the Father?
Why ask why? You can always ask another why. What specifically are you interested in asking. I can't tell from the quote.
That is not an agnostic point of view. I am beginning to think you are not really asking me questions. Assuming everything I have said to you is correct, what do you think it implies about Jesus? What is wrong with what I have said?
That is not the answer they give when asked this question, and they might ask you "Chosen for what?"
Possibly, you wouldn't be the first to think so.
https://www.physics.princeton.edu/ph115/LQ.pdf
This is an interesting short story about such a possibility.
What do we actually know about God? What do you assume to know?
Why do you say that the Genesis account is the story of Israel's origin?
You basically said that it's wrong to say that God is physical yet Jesus is a physical human being and is God. I guess that implies that Jesus isn't Divine but why would Jesus say that He and the Father are one if He's not Divine? BTW I'm agnostic theist.
So the Bible was wrong when it said that the Jews were God's chosen people?
Close to nothing
I can't really assume anything since I don't know much.
The link you provided doesn't work.
Looked it up, seems interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.
You ask good questions....
Sorry, I don't mean to make these posts so long, but there is so much to address....
This is easy to explain....who was the one who twisted God's words right from the beginning? It wasn't that God's word was in error but it was the spin put on them, like the devil's words to Eve, he used the words God said but put a different slant on them.
The same was true with Israel as a nation. They too had God's word, but they built their own traditions around that scripture and Jesus said that they invalidated God's word in doing so. (Matthew 15:7-9)
Christendom has followed that same time honored pattern......they too have altered the meaning of God's word to say things it never did. Satan does not change his tactics....because they work, no matter what time period he uses them.
God had two choices in Eden....either destroy the rebels and start again....or allow the rebels the freedom to prove that satan is the one who should direct mankind.
If God had chosen to destroy the rebels, what would that have proven? Only that God is more powerful....satan never challenged God's power....he challenged his sovereign right to set reasonable limits to the use of free will. So was satan right? Was God a liar? Was He withholding something beneficial from his children?
Wisely, God allowed them all the time in the world to see for themselves where the misuse of free will, and following the devil's direction would take them, whilst he stepped out of the picture to allow humankind to 'reap what they had sown'.
The devil's power is restricted as is shown with the trials of Job. If you read the first 2 chapters of Job you will see that the devil challenged Job's faith and the basis for it. He said Job only served God because of all the good things he enjoyed in life.....what would he do if it was all taken away? Would Job still serve his God? What if his life was on the line? Would he curse God and die?
Job represents all of us. We are enduring the same kind of trials even today, and many are giving up, proving that the devil was right. But read what happened to Job in the end of that story because he did not let satan win.... (Job 42:10-17)
Why could God allow this awful test? Because he knew he could reverse the whole thing and even erase the painful memory of it. Job believed in the resurrection, (i.e. the Jewish expectation in a physical resurrection) so at his death, he would have looked forward to a time when his whole family would again be reunited in "the new earth" under God's Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)
The humans were created as adults. Adam was created quite some time before he was given a mate, so he was fully educated by his Creator before he had to accept the responsibility of a wife and children. (Please understand that the creative "days" were not 24 hour periods)
The devil targeted the woman, because she was the least educated of the pair, and the devil knew that if he approached the man first, he may well have rejected the temptation outright. He tempted the woman because he knew that he could divide Adam's loyalties that way. By getting the woman to break God's law, he made Adam choose between the love of his God, and the love of his life. He is still using the same tactics even today. (Matthew 10:34-36) The Bible says that the man was responsible for the fall in Eden, not the woman. (Romans 5:12)
Do you know why it was only with the creation of humans that things started to go wrong?
In heaven there was God, his firstborn son, and millions of angels. All were powerful beings in their own rank.....but none could be a god to the others because they were basically equals. So, although an angel could not be a god to his fellow angels....he could be their leader.
With the creation of lower beings with intelligence but limited power, one ambitious spirit creature saw his opportunity to be something he could never have been otherwise. He entertained wrong thoughts (James 1:13-15) and because he was placed as a guardian in the garden, he observed everything and knew exactly when to strike. He abused a position of trust and his free will.
That is an important topic all by itself. The Bible does not teach a trinity....it never did.
Its not that God wants us to praise him and glorify him for its own sake.....he wants humans to see that if they don't worship the true God, they are by default, giving praise and worship to a pretender....a fake god...an unworthy phony. This one wanted to be a god and to take from the true God what is rightfully his, not by force, but by deception. He has many victims.
I guess that means being asleep at some times when the other is awake.....Oh well....
Sorry, I don't mean to make these posts so long, but there is so much to address....This is easy to explain....who was the one who twisted God's words right from the beginning? It wasn't that God's word was in error but it was the spin put on them, like the devil's words to Eve, he used the words God said but put a different slant on them.
The same was true with Israel as a nation. They too had God's word, but they built their own traditions around that scripture and Jesus said that they invalidated God's word in doing so. (Matthew 15:7-9)
Christendom has followed that same time honored pattern......they too have altered the meaning of God's word to say things it never did. Satan does not change his tactics....because they work, no matter what time period he uses them.
God had two choices in Eden....either destroy the rebels and start again....or allow the rebels the freedom to prove that satan is the one who should direct mankind.
If God had chosen to destroy the rebels, what would that have proven? Only that God is more powerful....satan never challenged God's power....he challenged his sovereign right to set reasonable limits to the use of free will. So was satan right? Was God a liar? Was He withholding something beneficial from his children?
Wisely, God allowed them all the time in the world to see for themselves where the misuse of free will, and following the devil's direction would take them, whilst he stepped out of the picture to allow humankind to 'reap what they had sown'.
The devil's power is restricted as is shown with the trials of Job. If you read the first 2 chapters of Job you will see that the devil challenged Job's faith and the basis for it. He said Job only served God because of all the good things he enjoyed in life.....what would he do if it was all taken away? Would Job still serve his God? What if his life was on the line? Would he curse God and die?
Job represents all of us. We are enduring the same kind of trials even today, and many are giving up, proving that the devil was right. But read what happened to Job in the end of that story because he did not let satan win.... (Job 42:10-17)
Why could God allow this awful test? Because he knew he could reverse the whole thing and even erase the painful memory of it. Job believed in the resurrection, (i.e. the Jewish expectation in a physical resurrection) so at his death, he would have looked forward to a time when his whole family would again be reunited in "the new earth" under God's Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)
The humans were created as adults. Adam was created quite some time before he was given a mate, so he was fully educated by his Creator before he had to accept the responsibility of a wife and children. (Please understand that the creative "days" were not 24 hour periods)
The devil targeted the woman, because she was the least educated of the pair, and the devil knew that if he approached the man first, he may well have rejected the temptation outright. He tempted the woman because he knew that he could divide Adam's loyalties that way. By getting the woman to break God's law, he made Adam choose between the love of his God, and the love of his life. He is still using the same tactics even today. (Matthew 10:34-36) The Bible says that the man was responsible for the fall in Eden, not the woman. (Romans 5:12)
Do you know why it was only with the creation of humans that things started to go wrong?
In heaven there was God, his firstborn son, and millions of angels. All were powerful beings in their own rank.....but none could be a god to the others because they were basically equals. So, although an angel could not be a god to his fellow angels....he could be their leader.
With the creation of lower beings with intelligence but limited power, one ambitious spirit creature saw his opportunity to be something he could never have been otherwise. He entertained wrong thoughts (James 1:13-15) and because he was placed as a guardian in the garden, he observed everything and knew exactly when to strike. He abused a position of trust and his free will.
That is an important topic all by itself. The Bible does not teach a trinity....it never did.
Its not that God wants us to praise him and glorify him for its own sake.....he wants humans to see that if they don't worship the true God, they are by default, giving praise and worship to a pretender....a fake god...an unworthy phony. This one wanted to be a god and to take from the true God what is rightfully his, not by force, but by deception. He has many victims.
I guess that means being asleep at some times when the other is awake.....Oh well....
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It makes sense to me as its part of the Torah, and the Torah is about the story of Israel's origin. It also seems to describe Israel, plus the things that happen in Genesis all relate to the Torah. The Torah comments about everything that happens in it. There are lots of indications of it. Above all Genesis refers to the actions of the LORD, but its plain that the LORD is part of a covenant called the Shema. Things in Genesis undergo anthropomorphic personification, such as the evil within Cain, which the LORD tells him is crouching at his own door and desiring to rule him. The LORD, too, speaks to Adam and Eve in the garden. When was the last time the US Constitution had a conversation with you? Its a similar event.
I think God analogous to Math, something which we ponder and discover but cannot fully comprehend. I do not think it is productive or good to carve up Genesis and torture it into a science text. That is a line there that should not be crossed.
What text are you referring to? Are you assuming it says that or is it an actual statement? Lets look at it.
CohenDavidson
Member
Good question! I've never thought about that! I have no answer. I have been told it was to fully express everything about his being. He had to express his love. To express love, love needs an object to express and show its love to. God created us to express his love towards us. I am not saying this is right, just a thought!