Atheists: What would you consider credible communication from God?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Preferably id LIKE you to move an object with your mind in front of me. But, if you cant, that dont mean perse you cannot do it. Because i also respect the fact that its not an easy thing to do and requires alot of focus, time and mental energy projection.

Thinking about this more: I think it's interesting - and IMO reasonable - that when you're confronted with a fantastic claim, you ask for a demonstration of the claim.

I would bet that hearing eyewitness reports from other people who claim to have seen my psychic abilities wouldn't be very compelling all on its own, right?

As I think about this more in the context of the thread, I keep coming back to two thoughts:

- I can't see any way that a "communication" alone could establish the existence of a god. Just as you went to seeing it for yourself as the best way to be convinced of my fantastic claim, I'd want the same thing for your fantastic claim.

- despite this, it should be within the power of an all-knowing, all-powerful god to communicate with me in a way that I would find convincing.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But I did not say that God does not care if you are hurt, I said it won’t hurt God if you reject Him because nothing can hurt God. God does care if you are hurt but God cannot do anything about that without overriding your free will to choose. God never does that as human free will is sacrosanct.

Now then, consider the child born to a Buddhist or Hindu family, or one born to an atheist family. And while you are considering that, consider yourself, born to your family. No child has any free will whatsoever in the matter of their birth. Nor do they have any free will when it comes to what they are taught to believe. And yet, "free will" is utterly useless if there is no reliable information for it to act upon. So the Buddhist child, the Hindu child, the atheist child, the Baha'i child and all the others will grow having only the information given to them by their parents, their communities, and their religious teachers. And that information will almost certainly not include competent information about all the other beliefs out there.

You see, if your God wants me to make a competent free choice to believe, the very minimum He needs to do is make whatever the truth is available to everyone. Absent that, competent free choices are impossible. You see, it is just possible that the Mormons are the only ones who got it right (according to South Park, anyway), and everybody else is a loser and going to hell. The Mormons have a book, too, and it claims to have been delivered directly from God, just like all the others.

Your notion of free will in belief is a crock. You didn't get to your beliefs by free will choice either -- it was fed to you before you knew how to think about it.

In my case, I was fed none of it, so I have all of it available to me to look at, and I have. And in the end, I concluded that god belief simply does not make sense in the reality in which I find myself. The contradictions, while believers are able for some reason to ignore them as if they weren't there, are simply to great for me to ignore.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Flawed: Can you write better?.

Absolutely! And have done so. But I'm rather ordinary; however brilliant writers have not only written better books, some are still alive today.

Inconsistent: Can you show any consistency in defending your stances?.

Yes. Can you, in yours? No? This is because the bible is full of contradictory messages. It's so very *not* consistent, that there are more than 40,000 different brands of 'chrisitan' today.

That number grows each year.

Archaic: Do you continue an anti-ancient bias when you read Suetonius, Pliny and others... who testify of a sect of Jews who believed Jesus resurrected from the dead?

Rabbit Trail. If god were real, and still around? There would be modern, recently created bible.

My stupid cell phone has monthly updates. I expect the Ultimate Creator of the Universe to update the bible with each new change in language and understanding.

You appear to be content with a Bronze Age book that is so out of date, it's nearly worthless.

It IS worthless as a Moral Guide: the bible states slavery is just fine, so long as you don't kill your slaves right away.

 

[Monika0711]

This is a carryover from a dialogue that has been ongoing between me and an Atheist on another forum for about five years... Yes, five years and we are still going around in the same circles. I posted something about this about six months ago but I am back with a slightly different slant.

Synopsis: The issue at hand is that this Atheist thinks that God should communicate directly to everyone in the world (all 7.4 billion people) because that is “what he considers” the only credible method of communication. In his opinion, if God does not communicate directly to everyone, that is evidence that God does not exist. One of his premises is that a God would want everyone to believe in Him, and direct communication to everyone would be “the only way” to accomplish that.

My position is that God wants everyone to believe in Him but God does not need everyone to believe in Him because an omnipotent/omniscient/fully self-sufficient God does not need anything from anyone. If an omnipotent God needed everyone to believe in Him, He could have communicated directly to everyone. So, since God does not do that, there are only three logical possibilities to choose from:

1. God uses Messengers, knowing that not everyone will believe in them.
2. God does not communicate at all.
3. God does not exist.

There is no option #4, that if God exists, God would communicate directly with everyone, because God has not communicated directly with everyone.

In other words, since there is no evidence that God has ever communicated directly to everyone we can assume that is not what God wants to do, if God exists.

Credibility is not the issue here, this issue is the best way to communicate to accomplish what God is trying to accomplish.

Who would know the best way to communicate to humans in order to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, humans or God?

God absolutely communicates with everyone — because communication is, in essence, creation. Thus, all created being is in a constant, unbroken communication with God. Being omnipresent, omniscient and all powerful -/ there is no need in God to prove to anyone that this communication is real. God does not have any needs to be proven — because “He” is beyond doubt.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It IS worthless as a Moral Guide: the bible states slavery is just fine, so long as you don't kill your slaves right away.

A powerful argument. Won't change any minds, unfortunately, but needs to be said anyway...

 

[Shad]

It is not an expectation just because it is a want. An omniscient God does not expect what he already knows will not happen. God expects exactly what happens, a small number of followers of his new religion.

There is an expectation not due to the want but action. If I want an apple but decide it is not worth the effort then there is no expectation. However if I take action to get an apple there is an expectation involved as I am taking action meet the want. Scripture is that action according to your view.

Maybe it is more of a hope.

Ummmm

I found great synonyms for "hope" on the new Thesaurus.com!

God cannot get everything He wants unless He overrides human free will, but God does not want to do that.

Ergo an expectation restricted by an act of will. This is simply removing a method to accomplish a goal. Namely ethics.

I want to be a billionaire but I wont rob Bill Gates to accomplish it.

If you read the OT God has overridden free will on a small scale a number of times for a goal. At times an individual while other times it effected "claimed" tens of thousands.

No, only a Messenger of God can do that. I just convey that information.

Semitics. The point is representation for God. As per the OP God isn't talking to me nor verifying anything. It's hearsay.

I said “might feel sad.” But even if God feels sad, He is still not going to compromise and communicate differently.

Assumption and hearsay.

The religious followers are involved in claiming there are Messengers, but they have nothing to do with the results. The recipients of the message determine the results because they have free will to choose to believe or not.

Considering those people are the only ones that entertain specific religions as representative of God they are very involved. The very idea of one being a recipient is solely entertained by those followers. You can not divorce the religion from the people involved in it.

True, but a God is better than no God at all. Imo. They sincerely believe they are right and sincerity matters to God.

I do not question their sincerity. A number of religions have a habit of killing people that are sincere about the wrong religion. Many claiming God ordered it so.

As long as people do not argue about it why would it matter so much? This will persist for a long time until everyone gathers under one tent. God is patient.

Patient or extremely lazy. God was sure busy in the past with floods, genocide, bailing of the Hebrews, etc, etc.

Just because the religions care does not mean God cares. Religions do not represent God after they have been tainted by man.

Which raises the question of why bother using human Messengers, religions which must be preserved by humans... Does you own religion hold that all these Messengers were needed as we humans messed things up again and again.

I do not object to evaluation of my religion by anyone. That is not true that only the Baha’i Faith has what we refer to as Messengers. Islam also teaches that Muhammad was a Messenger.

You missed my point. When an opponent uses their own idea of "What God would do" you seem to have a major issue with it. Yet you repeatedly reference you own religions views

 

[wandering peacefully]

@Trailblazer said:
"I do not believe I am holy and special. I only know what Baha’u’llah wrote that God wants. I am a human being so I sometimes get upset. Don’t you ever get angry? Must be nice,"

No, I don't get angry about internet arguments and it is nice actually. And positive thinking does go a long way. Sorry you have a hard time with it. Sorry, personal reasons, I'm a little touchy when I hear about anyone hitting elderly people. Glad he doesn't mind you hitting him and forgives you when you do it. Must be a pretty understanding guy.

That's great you know what God wants and that you know the best way to communicate with humans and you have all of the answers when it comes to religions. Must be nice.

By the way, atheists don't get mad at God and blame him for anything because atheists don't believe God is a real thing. So if your friend says what you say he does, he isn't an atheist.

Just a final funny note. I just tried to post this including your response to me but there were too many characters and it wouldn't allow it! Ever think about putting all that knowledge you know about God into a book? "The Only Truth about God" You could save the world! And be even richer!

 

[Jollybear]

Stop! There you go! ALL OR NOTHING. Apparently your god is so inept he cannot moderate his output/teaching. It's like 100% or 0%-- there is no moderation possible, in your picture of god.

Unlike an ordinary kitchen faucet....

I have to admit, i was making my point using a all or nothing illustration, just to paint the picture vividly.

However, this trickling and moderating his revelations you speak of, well, thats what we already have now in the human race.

Yet? Your god had zero problem halting the SUN in the SKY that one time, so his hero can keep slaughtering people.

And your god had zero problem magicking up mass quantities of water, so he could drown the whole forking WORLD that other time.

It seems your god is incapable of TWEAKS-- but instead -- MASSIVE OVER EFFECT.

No WONDER your god cannot be ... convincing. He is absolutely inept, as a god.

All the subtlety of a giant bolder rolling down a round tunnel....

Lol....those things WER the moderating. If he let lose more then that, the planet would he obliterated.

Hey, I'm not god-- but I'm capable of dialing it back for the audience: I don't give quantum physics lectures to 3 year olds, for example.

God CURRENTLY has it dialed modestly.

Right. When he drowns all the kittens on the planet, in a fit of pique, because people were behaving exactly as he made them to behave... real humility... NOT!

No, only noah and his family wer behaving as he wanted.

Nope. That's a JOKE: An immortal being cannot comprehend what it means to face death-- because being immortal? He cannot actually die.

Well in that sense we cannot actually die then either BEING A SPIRIT IN a body.

So, God takes on a body, incarnates. The body is what dies. So, he feels what we feel.

Not really. It's actually making fun of us mere mortals-- an immortal god pretending to be "human", while not actually being human.

In that light, if we are spirits in bodys, then we are pretending to be human too. See how much sense that makes?

Except when he doesn't, and murders all the first born babies-- more than once.

Except? So, at a minimum you admit he did show mercy. Which has humble overtones.

Pharough killed isreals firsborns. God designed and instituted the law of karma. This law applies nomatter what. So, what did egypt reap? There own firstborns dying.

Except when he doesn't, and has his Minions murder everyone, all the men, boys and boy-babies. All the non-virgin women too. Only the virgins are kept as sex slaves. That's neither compassion nor mercy...

The people in canaan, remember some of them wer the nephalim. Hybrids. Not fully human. Human/angel hybrids.

Second, God wanted the other humans dead because of there evil practices, one of which was sacrificing there own babies to the god moloch.

Thirdly, the land was stolen from isreal. So, this was payback/take back.

Fourthly, isreal had to take care of there own babies, they could not be burdened with others.

5th, If you kill the dads and let the boys grow old, then they will take revenge.

Except that they do not. All Powerful God cannot be humble, and isn't. It's all "worship me or be tortured". That's about the max level of arrogance you can be...

I dont interpret the bible to be eternal torture. So, this argument dont apply to my view. As for worship, its obey him or be punished, yes. Its his universe, his kingdom.

Except that the bible also says "the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom", so god demands FEAR in his followers.

Fear there dont mean terrified, it means respect for God.

Naturally: If you don't bow down like a slave? Torture. The opposite of 'humble'.

You dont need to bow to be a slave, you already ARE his slave. Why? Because he got you by the balls bob.

That's not MY position! I absolutely do not claim "something from nothing" or "random chance"!

That would be... silly! In fact? Neither do modern astrophysics make either claim.

Straw Man.

You may not claim it, but i know some atheists that have. But if you dont, well, thats good then.

Where's your evidence of god? What's that? You got ... nothing?

I gave the evidence/inferences/logics. You cant show a blind man the beautiful sunset. You could try to explain it to him all day, but it will never do justice and he will never see it.

By the way? It's the bible that claims "something from nothing"-- literally Gen 1.1 states that.

I dont believe genesis states that. I believe God created OUT OF HIMSELF. From WITHIN himself. And his self is not nothing.

 

[Jollybear]

Thinking about this more: I think it's interesting - and IMO reasonable - that when you're confronted with a fantastic claim, you ask for a demonstration of the claim.

You forgot the other part i said.

I would bet that hearing eyewitness reports from other people who claim to have seen my psychic abilities wouldn't be very compelling all on its own, right?

If i knew them, it may be.

As I think about this more in the context of the thread, I keep coming back to two thoughts:

- I can't see any way that a "communication" alone could establish the existence of a god. Just as you went to seeing it for yourself as the best way to be convinced of my fantastic claim, I'd want the same thing for your fantastic claim.

- despite this, it should be within the power of an all-knowing, all-powerful god to communicate with me in a way that I would find convincing.

Heres the problem, telekinesis is very mentally hard to do. Even to produce anything, gives off miniscule results, like moving a pencil for instance. And that assumes the person has done the mental work, which could take hours, to weeks, mayby years. Again, depending on the talent of the person too.

So, i respect this. Skeptics need to take stuff like this into consideration. To say telekinesis is deficult IS NOT an excuse, its a fact. But, it being hard, dont perse mean its false.

Likewise the existence of God. I cannot show you God. God could show you himself. But in anycase, God HAS shown himself to some people. Just not all.

Just because something is not within your or my experience, does not mean its false.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I have to admit, i was making my point using a all or nothing illustration, just to paint the picture vividly..

And so your "argument" was a complete failure. Not unlike your god's ability to be ... convincing.

However, this trickling and moderating his revelations you speak of, well, thats what we already have now in the human race..

Citation needed: Claim made without a speck of evidence.

Lol....those things WER the moderating. If he let lose more then that, the planet would he obliterated..

Citation needed. Claim made without even weak biblical proof.

God CURRENTLY has it dialed modestly..

Citation needed.

No, only noah and his family wer behaving as he wanted.
.

Really? And god was okay with Noah having drunken orgies with his daughters?

What a weird and arbitrary deity you have there... murders the entire planet, except for a Special Few, but doesn't kill them when they do the same thing he murdered the planet for...!

Well in that sense we cannot actually die then either BEING A SPIRIT IN a body..

Proof? No?

So, God takes on a body, incarnates. The body is what dies. So, he feels what we feel.
.

Nope. It was a Cosmic Joke: An Immortal Being cannot feel mortal suffering and mortal death. That's kinda how 'immortal' works.

Except? So, at a minimum you admit he did show mercy. Which has humble overtones..

I admit no such thing: The bible's god is the most evil, selfish, capricious, murderous invention by humans ever to come down the turnpike. The absolute opposite of "humble".

Pharough killed isreals firsborns. .

That would be a 100% false claim by you, here-- it was **god** who murdered all the firstborns, or his agent (same thing).

God designed and instituted the law of karma. This law applies nomatter what. So, what did egypt reap? There own firstborns dying.
.

Citation needed: you don't even have a bible verse to back this silly claim.

The people in canaan, remember some of them wer the nephalim. Hybrids. Not fully human. Human/angel hybrids..

So? Murder is still murder.

Second, God wanted the other humans dead because of there evil practices, one of which was sacrificing there own babies to the god moloch..

But sacrificing the whole planet was just Peachy? Talk about HYPOCRITE.

Thirdly, the land was stolen from isreal. So, this was payback/take back.

Fourthly, isreal had to take care of there own babies, they could not be burdened with others.

5th, If you kill the dads and let the boys grow old, then they will take revenge.
.

The above nonsense is not in the bible.

I dont interpret the bible to be eternal torture. So, this argument dont apply to my view. As for worship, its obey him or be punished, yes. Its his universe, his kingdom.
.

So you think the bible is WRONG? Okay.

Fear there dont mean terrified, it means respect for God.
.

False.

You dont need to bow to be a slave, you already ARE his slave. Why? Because he got you by the balls bob. .

Evil. That describes your monster-godling. Darn good thing your god simply doesn't exist, now isn't it?

What an EVIL picture you paint of your TORTURING god.

I dont believe genesis states that. I believe God created OUT OF HIMSELF. From WITHIN himself. And his self is not nothing.

Citation needed. The bible does not agree with you here, either.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer said:
"I do not believe I am holy and special. I only know what Baha’u’llah wrote that God wants. I am a human being so I sometimes get upset. Don’t you ever get angry? Must be nice,"

No, I don't get angry about internet arguments and it is nice actually. And positive thinking does go a long way. Sorry you have a hard time with it. Sorry, personal reasons, I'm a little touchy when I hear about anyone hitting elderly people. Glad he doesn't mind you hitting him and forgives you when you do it. Must be a pretty understanding guy.

That's great you know what God wants and that you know the best way to communicate with humans and you have all of the answers when it comes to religions. Must be nice.

By the way, atheists don't get mad at God and blame him for anything because atheists don't believe God is a real thing. So if your friend says what you say he does, he isn't an atheist.

Just a final funny note. I just tried to post this including your response to me but there were too many characters and it wouldn't allow it! Ever think about putting all that knowledge you know about God into a book? "The Only Truth about God" You could save the world! And be even richer!

I do not get angry at anyone on the forums either. I was not angry AT this atheist poster, I was just exasperated by some things he kept saying that I consider illogical. But I knew when to bow out and I did, before my husband got hurt. I hit him for other reasons too, when I am angry at God or some Baha’i thing I do not like. He knows the drill after all these years. We argue about God and Baha’i all the time as we see them differently, but it is not contentious, just a disagreement.

You are right that most atheists do not get mad at God, but some get mad at the hypothetical god. Our Bob the Unbeliever is about as mad at god as I have seen anyone. He makes my atheist friend in the OP seem mild by comparison.

No, I do not have the only Truth about God. Even the Baha’i Faith does not have that. All the older religions also have the spiritual Truth about God; it is just that their primary message and social teachings and laws are out of date.

Yep, I had a heck of a time keeping my post to you under the character limit; I had to delete a couple of things to make it fly. If you did not go away for so long you might not get such a long post from me. I have to make up for lost time.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is an expectation not due to the want but action. If I want an apple but decide it is not worth the effort then there is no expectation. However if I take action to get an apple there is an expectation involved as I am taking action meet the want. Scripture is that action according to your view.

I suppose that is possible that there is an expectation; then again I have NO IDEA what God is thinking or what He expects.

If you read the OT God has overridden free will on a small scale a number of times for a goal. At times an individual while other times it effected "claimed" tens of thousands.

I am not very familiar with the OT, and that is an understatement. However, I do not really believe God actually did what was attributed to Him in the OT. That of course is a huge Pandora’s Box.

The point is representation for God. As per the OP God isn't talking to me nor verifying anything. It's hearsay.

Assumption and hearsay.

Call it hearsay if you like but the only communication we can get from God is through the Messengers, IMB (in my belief). It is a very curious thing to me that people want to hear directly from God. I would not want to even if I could. I like having a buffer zone between me and an ALL-Powerful God.

Considering those people are the only ones that entertain specific religions as representative of God they are very involved. The very idea of one being a recipient is solely entertained by those followers. You can not divorce the religion from the people involved in it.

What I said before came out wrong. Of course the followers who are also the recipients are very involved in the results because they determine the results.

I do not question their sincerity. A number of religions have a habit of killing people that are sincere about the wrong religion. Many claiming God ordered it so.

And of course if that happens that is not good. Abdu’l-Baha said that if people argue about religion it is better not to have religion at all.

Patient or extremely lazy. God was sure busy in the past with floods, genocide, bailing of the Hebrews, etc, etc.

Like I said above, I do not necessarily believe God had anything to do with all of those things in the OT. Those were just stories people told about God.

Just because the religions care does not mean God cares. Religions do not represent God after they have been tainted by man.

Which raises the question of why bother using human Messengers, religions which must be preserved by humans... Does you own religion hold that all these Messengers were needed as we humans messed things up again and again.

That is one reason why God sends a new Messenger in every age, because people invariably mess up what the previous Messenger revealed. It won’t be as bad this time because we have the Covenant of Baha’u’llah which protects the Writings from getting altered and misinterpreted. However, there will be another Messenger in the future, although He/She will be under the shadow of Baha’u’llah for the next 500,000 years.

Realistically, what other way could God communicate, if not through Messengers, who are both human and divine, making it possible to be mediators between God and man?

You missed my point. When an opponent uses their own idea of "What God would do" you seem to have a major issue with it. Yet you repeatedly reference you own religions views.

By opponent do you mean an adherent to another religion, or do you mean an atheist? If someone can think of alternative to Messengers please present it. Direct communication to everyone is not a viable alternative for so many reasons, but I do not have time to explain those right now.

 

[Trailblazer]

Blasting to dust is pretty much what would happen Bob. Baha’u’llah said so..

"all powerful" --- except: It cannot manage to dial it back... at all, apparently.

Ooops! That means? Most definitely not all powerful. And not all knowing, too-- does not know how to dial it back.

God cannot dial it back because God is not a human being. God is God and cannot change His nature.

Not much of a god, then-- can't dial it back.

Not all powerful: Can't limit itself to be within human scope.

Not all knowing: Does not know how to limit itself.

Not much of a god-- color me unimpressed.

God is by nature what God is, unlimited. God is by nature unchanging. God has no interest in dialing it back in order to be able to communicate with humans. Any God that kowtows to humans is not God.

 

[james blunt]

God cannot dial it back because God is not a human being. God is God and cannot change His nature.

God is by nature what God is, unlimited. God is by nature unchanging. God has no interest in dialing it back in order to be able to communicate with humans. Any God that kowtows to humans is not God.

I'll send them my Karma and see how they like the plague of new borns ..............

 

[Trailblazer]

Not much of a god. Does not know how to impart information without massive damage to free will.... according to ... you.

God doesn’t WANT to impart information and override free will. That is why God doesn’t do so, not because it would cause damage.

I'm singularly unimpressed with your immoral, unfair, evil, capricious and egotistic deity.

Do you think God cares if you are impressed?

 

[james blunt]

Do you think God cares ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope. Might DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT: that way is EVIL.

I did not say might makes right, I said omniscience makes right.

Plus, according to you? There are quite a number of things your god seemingly does not know..

Like how to communicate with everyone without somehow destroying free will.

God knows how to but God chooses not to do what God knows how to do. Omnipotence cuts both ways.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet... your god cannot manage simple, understandable communication with everyone.

Why should He, just because you want Him to? Sorry, God does not take orders from humans.

You can scream "IS NOT, IS NOT" but that doesn't make your god NOT evil.

You can scream "GOD IS EVIL" but that doesn't make God evil. That is because YOU do not determine what God is; God determines that.

Because of the long list of god-preventable EVIL in the world-- THAT IS HOW.

So what? That does not prove a damn thing, except that many humans are evil.

Your continued use of FAILED MORAL CLAIMS does not excuse your god from DOING NOTHING.

God is under NO obligation to do anything. God gave humans a brain and free will to act morally. God is not subject to morals because God is not a human.

I simply pointed out the world is FULL OF GOD-PREVENTABLE EVIL EVENTS.

Proof your god is either EVIL or MYTH? Are these numerous EVIL events.

No, it is proof that humans do evil things.

Trailblazer said: Only a child thinks like that. Moreover, God is under no obligation to prevent natural disasters even if He could. Most natural disasters are directly linked to human activities so they are caused by human free will decisions.

Bob: Nice Ad Hom. Nice attempt at a dodge, too--- too bad for you, it didn't work. (not unlike your god-- who never-EVER does anything worthwhile...)

But good of you to admit your god is NOT ALL POWERFUL AT ALL.

And evil-- purely because of neglect.

Nice attempt at a dodge. Why should God be responsible to prevent what humans are fully capable of preventing?
You have that backwards. It is humans who are evil because of neglect.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why not 1.A - god uses messengers but everyone believes them?

That is what God wants but that is not what happens because humans have free will and some people *choose* not to believe in the Messengers.

Watch the 2 latest Superman. That's a great choice for a messenger people will believe. God gives his guy superman power. He flies around saving people from disasters.
Maybe god sends some monsters from revelations, Superman battles and destroys them.
This goes on for a few years. Everyone has seen him, he flies, he's indestructible, he has lazer eyes. He lazers a giant Godzilla revelations monster and stops a star from falling on earth (in revelations).
So why not that?

In short, God does not have Messengers doing superhuman things because God does not want us to believe in them based upon those things. God wants them to show up and act like ordinary men, which makes it necessary for us to take a serious look at them in order to determine if they are the real deal. In short, God does not want to make it that easy because then we would not have to work for our belief, and then the lackadaisical people could not be differentiated from the sincere seekers who put forth a lot of effort.

Jesus and Moses had super-powers. Parting a sea is what X-men Jean Grey does.
The Sentry does magic healing. Molecule Man creates any type of matter, water to wine.

But the story perfectly matches mythology and no historical records and pagan gods already did it and y'know, it's not working.So we need an update. Superman.

I do not believe that Jesus and Moses did all the superhuman things that were attributed to them, but rather that was stories that were used to convey certain spiritual truths. Jesus might have had special powers to heal the sick but that is something all Messengers of God have.

We do have an update, a “new” Messenger of God who came in the 19th century, but He did not act like Superman for the reasons I explained above.

Or just show up as large as the solar system. But with controlled gravity to not mess up our orbits. And waves at us and stands around until we can rocket out to him.

What about just doing a finger snap and everyone has complete belief and knowledge of god. Done.

I like your imagination. You are not asking for much are you?

Sorry, God will never do the finger snap because God does not want to make people believe in Him, He wants it to be a free will choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I was 24 I became despondent with my search for the meaning of life. It had become my main preoccupation over the previous 3 years and eventually I decided there probably was no God. I decided that I should no longer pray as there was no one to pray to. This life was all there was. When you die you die. Not long after deciding to become an atheist, I made a series of poor decisions and soon crashed into a severe depressive episode. I’d never experienced anything like it before. Every waking moment was darkness. I couldn’t socialise, concentrate, think or do anything really. I thought I would whither away and die.

Eventually I turned my thoughts towards God again, was mindful of His presence in my life and would pray. Eventually my depression lifted. In my search for answers I asked God to guide me to a community of like minded people. I thought that would take me back to Christianity but it took me to the Baha’i Faith instead. I’d come across the Baha’i Faith early on my journey. This time I was ready to seriously investigate it.

After becoming a Baha’i I wondered what I should be doing with my life. That led me to study medicine and I felt called by God.

Thanks for sharing your story. Now I understand how you became a *temporary atheist.* Something similar happened to me although it was not quite that dramatic. For about 10 years, I was angry at God and hated Him, so I shut myself off from God, although I never stopped believing God existed. Then in June 2014 when I was going through a major life crisis and no amount of counseling was helping me, I got really desperate and turned to God. This was not a conscious thing; just one day I asked my husband for Gleanings to read on the bus. I had not read it in decades, and I was reading it on the bus on my way home from work. I just started to cry because I suddenly knew that I was hearing the Voice of God and at the point I really connected to Baha’u’llah and realized who He was. I have read Gleanings about five times since and as you know I refer to it often. I have also read the Iqan a few times.

My life has not been the same since that day. I started to recover from my grief that was the result of life circumstances that propelled me towards God, and I started my own forum in October 2014. I still do not have a very good attitude towards God, but I know that is my own personal problem so I do not blame God anymore since I realize that is illogical. I do have short relapses in judgement but they do not even last a day.

As Baha’is God asks us to recite an obligatory prayer daily and read from the writings morning and evening as well as a few other spiritual practices. This is to enable us to draw close to God, be inspired and be guided by Him.

So every day I walk with God. It all really started 30 years ago after my failed foray into atheism. Through the Baha'i writings we should realise God has created as to know and worship Him, God is closer to us than our own life vein, and God is more friend to us, than we are to ourselves.

I agree. It is through Baha’u’llah that we can have a relationship with God, but Baha’u’llah is the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing,” The fact that God is closer to us than we are to ourselves does not mean that we can get close to God, not without Baha’u’llah or another Manifestation of God such as Jesus.

This doesn't have anything to do with the personal relationship we all should have with God as we humbly walk with Him.

I think that quote does have *something* to do with our relationship to God. God is one and alone and has no associates since God is inaccessible directly.

“How wondrous is the unity of the Living, the Ever-Abiding God—a unity which is exalted above all limitations, thattranscendeth the comprehension of all created things! He hath, from everlasting, dwelt in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. How lofty hath been His incorruptible Essence, how completely independent of the knowledge of all created things, and how immensely exalted will it remain above the praise of all the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 261-262​

I do not believe we can have a personal relationship with God. That is a Christian belief, not a Baha’i belief. Here is something I wrote up for a post a while back:

“Nay, forbid it, O my God, that I should have uttered such words as must of necessity imply the existence of any direct relationship between the Pen of Thy Revelation and the essence of all created things. Far, far are They Who are related to Thee above the conception of such relationship! All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation, and every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4​

What Baha’u’llah meant in this passage when He said that “All comparisons and likenesses fail to do justice to the Tree of Thy Revelation” was that there is nothing that can compare to the Tree, nothing that can do justice to that Tree. That Tree is the Manifestation of God that comes in every age. It has been referred to the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing.”

The Manifestations of God stand on the All-Highest Throne, and they are the Tree beyond which there is no passing, the Habitation of everlasting might and glory. We cannot pass beyond Them and get to God without Them. We need to go through them to (a) know anything about God or (b) have any relationship with God.

“The “sacred Lote-Tree” is a reference to the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing” (see note 128). It is used here symbolically to designate Bahá’u’lláh.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas. p. 236​

“Give ear unto the verses of God which He Who is the sacred Lote-Tree reciteth unto you. They are assuredly the infallible balance, established by God, the Lord of this world and the next. Through them the soul of man is caused to wing its flight towards the Dayspring of Revelation, and the heart of every true believer is suffused with light. Such are the laws which God hath enjoined upon you, such His commandments prescribed unto you in His Holy Tablet; obey them with joy and gladness, for this is best for you, did ye but know.”
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas. p. 73​

So now back to the mystical relationship with God. We can have a mystical relationship with God through a Manifestation of God such as Baha’u’llah and that is what prayer and meditation is all about, but we cannot go directly to God and have a mystical relationship with God.... We need the Intermediary, the Manifestation of God, who is our only connection to God. Baha’u’llah is called the Tree beyond which there is no passing because we cannot just pass beyond Baha’u’llah and go directly to God.

Think of it as God being down at the end of a road. The Manifestation of God is like a Gate across the road and we can go no further than that Gate. We can approach that Gate but even that Gate is a mystery we cannot ever fully comprehend. That is why that passage says “every way is barred to the comprehension of the Manifestation of Thy Self and the Day Spring of Thy Beauty.”

This idea that we cannot have a *direct relationship* with God is further confirmed by Shoghi Effendi:

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attainin the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File​

I believe prayers, reading of writings and living the life has a profound influence on our hearts and minds.

I can agree with that. That is as God intended it to be.