Atheists: What would you consider credible communication from God?

[Trailblazer]

Nope. Using Special Favorites is Demonstratively UNFAIR.

A 2 year old recognizes this. Monkeys, chips and other apes recognize this. Even Dolphins.

UNFAIR==EVIL.

You have yet to explain why this isn't so-- apart from the failed "God Does What God Wants" argument (might makes right).

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT moral failure. Evil.

God MUST as a bare minimum, act in a SUPERIOR MORAL FASHION to mere humans.

Your god? Fails at this task, therefore, Evil.

False. You don't get to re-define "unfair" because it paints your god in an evil light.

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT is evil. Look at the former USSR.

What everything you say amounts to Bob is that you think you know more than what an Omniscient God knows regarding what it should do to be moral and fair, but saying you know more than an Omniscient God is patently illogical.

Omniscience makes right. That is logic 101 stuff.

 

[Trailblazer]

So. Yet another thing your god cannot do. Or worse-- is unwilling (malicious, evil).
Cannot an infinite being overcome mere mortal's delusions? Apparently not.
Not all-powerful. NOT all KNOWING either.

Why should God DO everything FOR humans just because God is All-Powerful? Only a child thinks like that. God gave humans a brain and free will so they could overcome their own delusions.

People do not CHOOSE to experience a massive EARTHQUAKE.

People do not CHOOSE to experience massive drought, and crop failure.

People do not CHOOSE to experience cancer in children.

People do not CHOOSE to experience massive tsunamis that destroy lives, wreck coastlines and so on.

FAIL. YOUR GOD IS EVIL.

They are evil to YOU because that is how you perceive these things. That however does not make them evil because YOU do not determine what is evil.

Trailblazer said: Why should God prevent the evil that humans cause by virtue of their own free will?
Bob said: .

I see you, like the atheist I cited in the OP, have no answer.

And your god's principle trait? IS TO DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL.

And you know that HOW?

Oh! Let me fire up my anti-hurricane machine, and direct the latest mega-storm back out to sea, then. RIGHT?

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT "GOD-PREVENTABLE" THAT ESCAPED YOU?

And you know that exactly HOW?

No Bob, God cannot prevent everything just because God is Omnipotent. Only a child thinks like that. Moreover, God is under no obligation to prevent natural disasters even if He could. Most natural disasters are directly linked to human activities so they are caused by human free will decisions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet-- every one of your posts? You give incredible, lengthy and long replies that say you DO think you know.

You are not being consistent.

I know what Baha’u’llah has revealed about God, nothing more. That is a lot more than you know, which is nothing.

Logical FALLACY stuff, you mean.

There is no fallacy. You can only get what God provides since you cannot control an Omnipotent God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, I have demonstrated that there are quite a few things your god cannot do.

PRINCIPALLY? ACT RESPONSIBLY.

No, that is something some people cannot do.Instead, they want God to be responsible for what they are responsible for.

Evil. Malicious. That's your god in a nutshell. Since there is quite a bit of GOOD in the world?

All because you are not getting what you want. I am sorry a man your age cannot understand how childish that is. It is incredible.

Your god is either quite INEPT? (not god) or simply doesn't exist (also not god).

Logical Fallacy 101. Again.

Again, no fallacy exists. That is what some atheists say when they cannot respond to what I say.

 

[Trailblazer]

Same old same old: MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

That means? Your god? Evil.

No Bob, Omniscience makes right, logically speaking.
A God that knows everything can never be wrong.
That means God is always right.

 

[Trailblazer]

False Dichotomy Logical Fallacy. Not asking for mere bicycles.

No, you are asking for God to do everything for you so you won’t have to DO anything. That is asking for more than a bicycle.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then? WHY DID YOU USE IT AS A "PROOF"?

The Bible is part of the proof that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

You asked in the OP what atheists would consider reliable communication from God. This atheist here think that a communication that unites them would impress me. And as long as hundred of millions believe God wants humanity to be divided in castes at birth, while hundred of billions believe that God created all humans equal, then I cannot possibly take the communication issue seriously.

The Baha’i Faith is the religion that unites people. The primary message of Baha’u’llah was the unity of mankind, that we are all fruits of one tree and leaves of one branch, but of course it does not unite people if they reject the Messenger along with the message.

God is not going to whisper in the ears of all the 7.4 billion people in the world, and even if He did that would not unite mankind. It would rather further divide them because everyone would interpret their message differently.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

We are talking about an ALL-Powerful God Bob, not someone I would want to run into in a dark alley.

Blasting to dust is pretty much what would happen Bob. Baha’u’llah said so..

"all powerful" --- except: It cannot manage to dial it back... at all, apparently.

Ooops! That means? Most definitely not all powerful. And not all knowing, too-- does not know how to dial it back.

Not much of a god, then. Must be his massively over-stuffed ego... or something.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings, pp. 71-72​

Is that what you want, to be reduced to utter nothingness?.

Citation needed. Claim submitted without evidence of any kind.

You cannot use your claim as evidence for your claim...

If you knew more about God you would know why God does not communicate with ordinary people... It is for our own good that God keeps His distance.

Not much of a god, then-- can't dial it back.

Not all powerful: Can't limit itself to be within human scope.

Not all knowing: Does not know how to limit itself.

Not much of a god-- color me unimpressed.

 

[Trailblazer]

You do realize, I hope, that you have just said two diametrically opposed things: God does not care if I am hurt; and God cares about me. Between you and your God, one of you is a tad confused.

But I did not say that God does not care if you are hurt, I said it won’t hurt God if you reject Him because nothing can hurt God. God does care if you are hurt but God cannot do anything about that without overriding your free will to choose. God never does that as human free will is sacrosanct.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The Bible is part of the proof that God exists.

No. It isn't. There IS one thing the bible "proves": that people loved writing down myths....

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

But I did not say that God does not care if you are hurt, I said it won’t hurt God if you reject Him because nothing can hurt God. God does care if you are hurt but God cannot do anything about that without overriding your free will to choose. God never does that as human free will is sacrosanct.

Not much of a god. Does not know how to impart information without massive damage to free will.... according to ... you.

I'm singularly unimpressed with your immoral, unfair, evil, capricious and egotistic deity.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What everything you say amounts to Bob is that you think you know more than what an Omniscient God knows regarding what it should do to be moral and fair, but saying you know more than an Omniscient God is patently illogical.

Omniscience makes right. That is logic 101 stuff.

Nope. Might DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT: that way is EVIL.

Plus, according to you? There are quite a number of things your god seemingly does not know..

Like how to communicate with everyone without somehow destroying free will.

Ironically? Mere human adults manage to communicate with the fragile minds of toddlers, without ruining their free will....

Yet another thing humans are better at doing, than your god...

 

[Trailblazer]

Except the want is followed by methods for accomplishing that want ie claimed scripture ergo an expectation. This expectation need not be an absolute conversion expectation.

It is not an expectation just because it is a want. An omniscient God does not expect what he already knows will not happen. God expects exactly what happens, a small number of followers of his new religion.

Ergo this is still an expectation just not one of an absolute such as 100% conversion rate.

Maybe it is more of a hope.

This runs counter to said want of "their sake" as claimed knowledge exists.

God cannot get everything He wants unless He overrides human free will, but God does not want to do that.

You have been this entire thread.

No, only a Messenger of God can do that. I just convey that information.

This merely undermines your own argument as there is a motivator, sadness, and a failure of scripture to solve this issue.

I said “might feel sad.” But even if God feels sad, He is still not going to compromise and communicate differently.

You are misinterpreting my point. You claimed your religion is not involved but you continuously reference your own religious view all the time. Without you religion you can not claim there are Messengers.

The religious followers are involved in claiming there are Messengers, but they have nothing to do with the results. The recipients of the message determine the results because they have free will to choose to believe or not.

Nope. They believe in a God not God. You are merely playing parallelism words games in which similarity of beliefs equate belief about the same thing. Ergo some belief are going to be false.

True, but a God is better than no God at all. Imo. They sincerely believe they are right and sincerity matters to God.

Except for the fact that mutually exclusive views render this not the case. For example a deist's God is incompatible with a revelation theist.

As long as people do not argue about it why would it matter so much? This will persist for a long time until everyone gathers under one tent. God is patient.

Seems like many religions care about which God is believed over basic belief otherwise punishment would not be include to due a lack of belief in a specific religion.

Just because the religions care does not mean God cares. Religions do not represent God after they have been tainted by man.

Environment more often than not dictates which religions are taught, supported, oppressed, etc. Hence why when one looks at various nations you can easily see with religion is the majority and why. KSA's is Islamic. It is taught by the state. The state suppresses other religions and does not teach anything about those religions in state schools. An individual may believe the religion is true but they have been primed for that conclusion before they were born.

I agree, and that is very sad. I am fortunate that I was not raised in any religion.

This was not the point I was addressing. I was addressing your uses of your own religious view in your argument yet you rejection of any evaluation of your religion by me. You talk about Messengers but said people only hold this title according to your religion and nothing else.

I do not object to evaluation of my religion by anyone. That is not true that only the Baha’i Faith has what we refer to as Messengers. Islam also teaches that Muhammad was a Messenger.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why should God DO everything FOR humans just because God is All-Powerful? Only a child thinks like that. God gave humans a brain and free will so they could overcome their own delusions..

Yet... your god cannot manage simple, understandable communication with everyone.

Evil. Incompetent. Both. (or? Myth-- most likely)

They are evil to YOU because that is how you perceive these things. That however does not make them evil because YOU do not determine what is evil..

MIGHT DOES NOT MAKE RIGHT.

Your god? Is PURE EVIL for being something of a jerk, for failing to do the things I listed and much more.

You can scream "IS NOT, IS NOT" but that doesn't make your god NOT evil.

I see you, like the atheist I cited in the OP, have no answer..

I see you cannot see beyond your own posts. It's no wonder you cannot be convincing-- the other atheist is likely frustrated with you, and your constant repetition of failed claims.

And you know that HOW?

And you know that exactly HOW?.

Because of the long list of god-preventable EVIL in the world-- THAT IS HOW.

Your continued use of FAILED MORAL CLAIMS does not excuse your god from DOING NOTHING.

No Bob, God cannot prevent everything just because God is Omnipotent. .

PROJECTION/STRAWMAN. I never asked that.

I simply pointed out the world is FULL OF GOD-PREVENTABLE EVIL EVENTS.

Proof your god is either EVIL or MYTH? Are these numerous EVIL events.

Only a child thinks like that. Moreover, God is under no obligation to prevent natural disasters even if He could. Most natural disasters are directly linked to human activities so they are caused by human free will decisions.

Nice Ad Hom. Nice attempt at a dodge, too--- too bad for you, it didn't work. (not unlike your god-- who never-EVER does anything worthwhile...)

But good of you to admit your god is NOT ALL POWERFUL AT ALL.

And evil-- purely because of neglect.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It is not an expectation just because it is a want. An omniscient God does not expect what he already knows will not happen. God expects exactly what happens, a small number of followers of his new religion..

Evil. Uses Unfair Practice. Special Favorites are Unfair-- Evil.

So much for that.

Maybe it is more of a hope. .

Or maybe more like it's myth...

God cannot get everything He wants unless He overrides human free will, but God does not want to do that..

You know this... HOW?

No, only a Messenger of God can do that. I just convey that information..

Ego, much?

I said “might feel sad.” But even if God feels sad, He is still not going to compromise and communicate differently..

you know 'god' feels this... HOW?

The religious followers are involved in claiming there are Messengers, but they have nothing to do with the results. The recipients of the message determine the results because they have free will to choose to believe or not..

proof? Citation needed: No, not "scripture".

True, but a God is better than no God at all. Imo. They sincerely believe they are right and sincerity matters to God.
.

You know this... HOW? Citation needed.

As long as people do not argue about it why would it matter so much? This will persist for a long time until everyone gathers under one tent. God is patient.
.

You know this .... HOW?

Just because the religions care does not mean God cares. Religions do not represent God after they have been tainted by man..

All religions are from man-- even yours. None have the backing of a real god.

I can prove it, too:

Any religion who had the actual backing of an All Knowing God? Would quickly rise above all the false religions.

Pretty soon, because of God Backing, Godly Advice and so forth? There would be just the one religion-- and no others .

What mere human agency could possibly compete?

Look around the Planet: millions of different and distinct religions.

They cannot all be True.

They can all be false..

 

[joelr]

1. God uses Messengers, knowing that not everyone will believe in them.
2. God does not communicate at all.
3. God does not exist.

There is no option #4, that if God exists, God would communicate directly with everyone, because God has not communicated directly with everyone.

Why not 1.A - god uses messengers but everyone believes them?
Watch the 2 latest Superman. That's a great choice for a messenger people will believe. God gives his guy superman power. He flies around saving people from disasters.
Maybe god sends some monsters from revelations, Superman battles and destroys them.
This goes on for a few years. Everyone has seen him, he flies, he's indestructible, he has lazer eyes. He lazers a giant Godzilla revelations monster and stops a star from falling on earth (in revelations).

So why not that?

Jesus and Moses had super-powers. Parting a sea is what X-men Jean Grey does.
The Sentry does magic healing. Molecule Man creates any type of matter, water to wine.

But the story perfectly matches mythology and no historical records and pagan gods already did it and y'know, it's not working.So we need an update. Superman.

Or just show up as large as the solar system. But with controlled gravity to not mess up our orbits. And waves at us and stands around until we can rocket out to him.

What about just doing a finger snap and everyone has complete belief and knowledge of god. Done.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for sharing. I did not mean to exclude believers from this thread and I am glad you and some Christians showed up. It makes me realize that Baha’is are really on the same page as Christians when they present their arguments for God and Messengers.

I feel close to Christians in some respects, in other ways close to atheists. With Christians I share a love God, Jesus and the Holy Bible. With atheists I share a love for reason and science. Some Christians have a good balance between the two though. Some atheists are very spiritual. It’s great to love all people regardless of belief as Baha'u'llah has asked.

I do not know how one “tries out atheism” after they have been a believer. I can however understand how someone can lose faith in God and then become an atheist. Often, my husband says I should just become an atheist, the way I sometimes talk about God, and I told him I wish I could become one but I cannot because I believe God exists. I suppose the main reason I believe that is because of Baha’u’llah, as I never even thought about God before I was a Baha’i. It is not as if I was searching for God or a religion. It just kind of found me. But God and I have never been on really good terms.

When I was 24 I became despondent with my search for the meaning of life. It had become my main preoccupation over the previous 3 years and eventually I decided there probably was no God. I decided that I should no longer pray as there was no one to pray to. This life was all there was. When you die you die. Not long after deciding to become an atheist, I made a series of poor decisions and soon crashed into a severe depressive episode. I’d never experienced anything like it before. Every waking moment was darkness. I couldn’t socialise, concentrate, think or do anything really. I thought I would whither away and die.

Eventually I turned my thoughts towards God again, was mindful of His presence in my life and would pray. Eventually my depression lifted. In my search for answers I asked God to guide me to a community of like minded people. I thought that would take me back to Christianity but it took me to the Baha’i Faith instead. I’d come across the Baha’i Faith early on my journey. This time I was ready to seriously investigate it.

After becoming a Baha’i I wondered what I should be doing with my life. That led me to study medicine and I felt called by God.

How does God make Himself known to people on a personal level? I am not saying it is impossible, I just have not experienced it myself.I understand when a Christian says that because of their beliefs, but I do not understand when a Baha’i says that. According to my understanding of what Baha’u’llah wrote, we cannot ever approach God or be partners with God, so I cannot buy this idea that we can have a “relationship” with God:

As Baha’is God asks us to recite an obligatory prayer daily and read from the writings morning and evening as well as a few other spiritual practices. This is to enable us to draw close to God, be inspired and be guided by Him.

So everyday I walk with God. It all really started 30 years ago after my failed foray into atheism. Through the Baha'i writings we should realise God has created as to know and worship Him, God is closer to us than our own life vein, and God is more friend to us, than we are to ourselves.

O SON OF SPIRIT! I created thee rich, why dost thou bring thyself down to poverty? Noble I made thee, wherewith dost thou abase thyself? Out of the essence of knowledge I gave thee being, why seekest thou enlightenment from anyone beside Me? Out of the clay of love I molded thee, how dost thou busy thyself with another? Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting.

And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192

This doesn't have anything to do with the personal relationship we all should have with God as we humbly walk with Him.

God is too far above humans to ever relate to us on a personal level. That is why we have Messengers. However, I think it is possible that God might be able to somehow communicate with our minds and I think maybe I have experienced that by way of getting guidance I asked for on certain matters.

Maybe God does communicate to everyone’s mind in some way and some people have the capacity to perceive Him better than others. Of course the same applies to recognizing His Messengers.

I believe prayers, reading of writings and living the life has a profound influence on our hearts and minds.

 

[viole]

The Baha’i Faith is the religion that unites people. The primary message of Baha’u’llah was the unity of mankind, that we are all fruits of one tree and leaves of one branch, but of course it does not unite people if they reject the Messenger along with the message.

God is not going to whisper in the ears of all the 7.4 billion people in the world, and even if He did that would not unite mankind. It would rather further divide them because everyone would interpret their message differently.

Come back to me when everybody is a Baha, or whatever.

Your rationalizations are totally unconvincing. If He whispers in the ears, or reveals Herself, to a multitude of different so called prophets, and delegates everything to fallible middle men that might even add to the transmission error, as we observe in the different religions, it is not clear why he does not do it directly.

Again the most rational, natural, common sense, pasimonous explanation is that those so called prophets just made things up.

No miracle nor divine bad communicators required. Just human standard behavior. It is amazing you guys do not see it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why are YOU so gullible that the very flawed, inconsistent and archaic bible IS?

Flawed: Can you write better?

Inconsistent: Can you show any consistency in defending your stances?

Archaic: Do you continue an anti-ancient bias when you read Suetonius, Pliny and others... who testify of a sect of Jews who believed Jesus resurrected from the dead?