74x12
Well-Known Member
YeahBut thats true regardless if he is god (as defined in the OP) or not?
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YeahBut thats true regardless if he is god (as defined in the OP) or not?
Yeah
The Roman Catholic writer Thomas Hart, in his book, To Know and Follow Jesus, commented on a couple of verses in Hebrews.
Heb 2:17,
Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Jesus) to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.Heb 4:15,
For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
"The Chalcedonian formula [the council's decision declaring Jesus both God and man] makes genuine humanity impossible. The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He knows the past, present, and future … He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and going to do. This is far from ordinary human experience. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with."Indeed, had Jesus known He was God he would not have been at all like the rest of us.
The Roman Catholic writer Thomas Hart, in his book, To Know and Follow Jesus, commented on a couple of verses in Hebrews.
Heb 2:17,
Wherefore in all things it behoved him (Jesus) to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.Heb 4:15,
For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
"The Chalcedonian formula [the council's decision declaring Jesus both God and man] makes genuine humanity impossible. The conciliar definition says that Jesus is true man. But if there are two natures in him, it is clear which will dominate. And Jesus becomes immediately very different from us. He is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. He knows the past, present, and future … He knows exactly what everyone is thinking and going to do. This is far from ordinary human experience. Jesus is tempted but cannot sin because he is God. What kind of temptation is this? It has little in common with the kinds of struggles we are familiar with."Indeed, had Jesus known He was God he would not have been at all like the rest of us.
Thats interesting so you say Jesus did not know he was God father son and Holy Ghost. I don't agree with the Trinity but would like to read this thread . The Trinity confuses me.
Thanks for putting up a smart thread sense so many of us are confused by the Trinity. I have read too many un smart Christian threads of late but this one is smart Thanks!!
I hope I haven't misunderstood your post. I understand you to be asking if belief in the trinity or not really matters. If I'm right, read on. If I'm wrong, kindly disregard.Some people cannot tell the difference between incarnation and source. Others can. I agree with @74x12 In post #8. Does it matter?
God has actually already told you that you do in fact fail. Your or my personal belief does not nullify the scriptures.I could be tempted and know I will not fail. That it is just a matter of faith. If God told me before hand that I would not fail and I would pass the test;
Yes, Jesus was foreknown, but that verse doesn't say success was guaranteed. Jesus' success wasn't assured until he said, "it is finished" and hung his head and died. Until that point he could have sinned just like the first Adam. As Hebrews clearly states, He was just like his brethren, which means he had free will which means he could have sinned. That's how we are and that's he must be or Hebrews contains lies.My point is that we see that 1 Peter 1:19-20 indicates His actual blood was foreknown from the foundation of the world. So it was apparent to God that Christ would succeed.
I did not mean to say Jesus was not the Messiah. He absolutely was the Messiah that God promised would arise from the tribe of Judah. He just wasn't God. He was God's only begotten son born by God's overshadowing the virgin Mary. But he was certainly a special man.Sorry but I must disagree. The fact Jesus is the only Messiah is apparent from the things He claimed. Read John 10:1-15 This makes it clear that the Father knows Jesus as the "Good Shepherd" that gives His life for the Sheep and the Father knows Jesus as the Door of the sheepfold. All that came before were "thieves and liars". So they never were the true Messiah. Jesus is the only option. The only Chosen One. The only possible Savior.
You are a rare bird indeed, in that you actually employ logic and common sense in your thinking. The trinity absolutely should confuse you. Anybody that says otherwise is not being honest. Three people in one is way outside the realm of human comprehension. It does not compute!Thats interesting so you say Jesus did not know he was God father son and Holy Ghost. I don't agree with the Trinity but would like to read this thread . The Trinity confuses me.
Thanks for putting up a smart thread sense so many of us are confused by the Trinity. I have read too many un smart Christian threads of late but this one is smart Thanks!!
In all honesty, yes, they have created what can only be described as an absurdity. I often wonder how many intelligent people reject Christianity because of the absurdness of the trinity. Can't blame 'em one bit!Perhaps it is more accurate to say that orthodox Christianity has created an absurdity.
I hope I haven't misunderstood your post. I understand you to be asking if belief in the trinity or not really matters. If I'm right, read on. If I'm wrong, kindly disregard.
Does it matter? Does worshiping false Gods matter? If Jesus is not God, then making him God means he is a false God, which isn't a good thing.
There is only one God.
Deut 6:4,
Hear, Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;Exod 20:3,
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.Now I realize some hold that God and Jesus (and the Holy Ghost) are not 3 people but really one. Honestly, there is no argument I know of that can refute that illogical belief, other than it defies all rules of language and human understanding. People either see that or they don't.
Having said that, if you check early church history your will find there is no mention of the trinity whatsoever in the first 200 years or so of church. It was an idea that came later as the corrupted church leaders* wanted to increase their coffers by letting in the Greek and Romans who had been worshiping their own brand of trinitarianism for several hundred years prior to the Christian church being established in the first century. In short, they compromised for more money.
*Gal 1:6-7, 2 Cor 11:4, Jude 1:4, 2 Pet 2:1, et. al.
Well, I don't think anybody actually believes that God is three people in one. A person can only believe in things with which they are familiar. There can be no real comprehension, let alone familiarity, with three people being somehow one person. It just doesn't compute, so while many say they believe it, they really can't. I'm not really challenging anything.My question is, are you going by what trinitarians say, their theology? Or are you challenging what they actually believe?
Coming from trinitarian and nontrinitarian views, they both makes sense. People challenge the theology until the cows come home but regardless both sides worship god.
What in a trinitarians theology that you Know they are worshiping Jesus or worshiping his father in his name?
Saying jesus is god means nothing. Understanding the reasoning on a personal level means a lot. But, I see no difference. In what manner are they worshiping a false god just because they Say they worship jesus even thou ...
In other words, trini- worship god in jesus name. They cannot tell the difference between father and son. They are not worshiping a false god. Their language does not invalidate who they worship in the name of christ.
Goes beyond theology.
I'm not sure were the scriptures themselves say we worship God in the name of Jesus.
I find at John 10:36 Jesus answered and did Not consider himself as his own God but as God's Son.I think the topic is difficult once Jesus is made to be God. If he is understood as the son of God and not God the son all the difficulty goes away. Few Christians are willing to even consider that Jesus is not God, so orthodox Christianity has indeed complicated things.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you give me one verse that specifically says we worship God in the name of Jesus?Huh?
I was reading and has to stop at this. This is the whole NT. Everything is in the name of gods son.
Well, I don't think anybody actually believes that God is three people in one. A person can only believe in things with which they are familiar. There can be no real comprehension, let alone familiarity, with three people being somehow one person. It just doesn't compute, so while many say they believe it, they really can't. I'm not really challenging anything.
People communicate via words, words which we all agree on as to their meaning. We all know what the words, "there," "is," "one," and "god" mean. Those are the words God used in the scriptures. To say Jesus, the son, and God, the father, are both God does not conform to those four simple words. A son and a father are clearly "two" people.
I'm not sure were the scriptures themselves say we worship God in the name of Jesus.
Are you suggesting there are people who don't know the difference between a father and a son?
I've not met one yet, not to say there isn't anybody like that, but they must get awfully confused on Father's Da
Saying Jesus is God means nothing only if Jesus really is God or if God doesn't care that we worship multiple Gods. I don't see the scriptures supporting either case. So yes, it is important who we worship. That is made crystal clear throughout the Old Testament. Just read what happened when Israel worshiped false Gods.
Yes, just like my father's son and therefore not my father. One father and one son make two people, not one.I find at John 10:36 Jesus answered and did Not consider himself as his own God but as God's Son.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you give me one verse that specifically says we worship God in the name of Jesus?
Anyway, I'm not sure what that would have to do with what Hart said about those two verses in Hebrews. I was wondering how Jesus could be just like us if he were God. I don't know about you, but I certainly have no consciousness of being God. So if Jesus knew he was God and I don't, then Jesus is nothing at all like me and the two verses in Hebrews are patently false.
I was wondering how Jesus could be just like us if he were God.
If experience is our guide to truth, then for sure there is no trinity. There is not a person who ever lived that has experienced being their own father.Usually, people believe jesus is the incarnation of god by experience rather than knowledge. They worship god. Saved by jesus. Live by gods spirit.
But words are not experiences. So, to understand the nature of the trinity is beyond challenging their theology. Thats why there is backlash. Youre saying that god's son is not affiliated with his father at all.
Like I said. Trinitarians do not and cannot differienate between father and son (hence the relationship). Relationship makes two things one.
Non-trinitarians dont see the relationship in that matter. They still see two separate individuals. I guess the word relationship is defined differently. I dont know.
Huh? Thats the whole NT.
Yes. They call jesus god because they cannot tell the difference between a father and son. Its spiritual not verbatum. The use of As One and Jesus is God just shows relationship.
If they could tell the difference, jesus would not be god. Just human.
I live with christians. I found out in The Church Catholics recognize that there is a father and a son. However, they do not make difference between the two since the son is an incarnation of the father not a separate entity in himself. Its metaphysical.
Wait. if Jesus is god, there is only one god, there are not multiple gods. That makes no sense.
Trinitarians worship god in the name of jesus
They see jesus as an incarnation of his father
Since father and son have a shared relationship, trinitarians rightfully interpret that relation-ship as two being one
Therefore, they conclude father and son are the same
Hence father and son are one
Jesus is god
Took me awhile until I actally went to Mass. Its better explained in Mass than protestant evangelical churches.
If experience is our guide to truth, then for sure there is no trinity. There is not a person who ever lived that has experienced being their own father.
If you are comfortable with the trinity, then by all means stick with it. It is not my intention to make anybody uncomfortable. On the other side of the coin, I will say without reservation that nobody will ever convince me that Jesus is God
I did believe that one time (at least, being Catholic, I said I did) but once I looked at the scriptures themselves I understood him to be God's son and therefore not God which would make him his own father. I can't image how they explain that at mass, but like I said, if it works for you I'm happy for you.