Okay. I got my physical bible out

[Unveiled Artist]

No, that is the top one.

There once existed an anti-materialist Christian sect from France who were called the Cathars. They were so anti-materialist, in fact, that they rejected food to the point that they starved themselves to death... To die of starvation, to them, was an ultimate act of martyrdom, and became the "ultimate sacrifice" of their greatest adherants.

Wow. Reminds me of what The Buddha was belittling about the practices of Hinduism. People starve themselves to have the spiritual come from purging. I know the flesh suffers and dies but how does these things make the body not sacred? Suffering is natural.

 

[Cooky]

Wow. Reminds me of what The Buddha was belittling about the practices of Hinduism. People starve themselves to have the spiritual come from purging. I know the flesh suffers and dies but how does these things make the body not sacred? Suffering is natural.

Yes, according to their theology, it was all part of the path to "perfection". Deemed heretics, they, along with their theology, were fully uprooted and eradicated from existence during the 12th century by force.

Albigensian Crusade - Wikipedia

 

[loverofhumanity]

With old notes and online. I have not read a distinct answer to this repeated question. Normally it's in the middle of other topics.

How is jesus a sacrifice when he does not die?

A sacrifice is when you give something up of value for another person's wellbeing. Jesus said he sacrificed himself for your wellbeing. But what exactly did he loose in order to relate to you so that you are saved?

Edit. Actually, below are better questions: what's the definition of sacrifice and is there a higher one than giving up ones life.

Is there another definition of the Highest sacrifice that is beyond giving up ones life? (Probably a better question )

What' the definition of Christian sacrifice to where jesus can give himself up without dying?

That’s a very good question and that’s where the contradiction I’ll seek to clarify lies.

My understanding is that Christ did die and did sacrifice His physical body and endured torture and pain in order to spread His teachings of love and brotherhood.

Also it is my understanding that no human being is infallible with exception to God and His Prophets so the interpretation that Christ rose physically may be incorrect and that it could well have been a spiritual revival or resurrection that occurred not a physical one.

Then what about the disciples seeing Jesus after His passing?

My humble explanation is Mount Tabor where the disciples saw God and Moses in a ‘vision’ and afterwards Jesus said not to tell anyone. Now there were many people on that mountain that day who saw nothing as it was a vision granted only to a few disciples.

The thing here is I believe, to keep an open mind admitting humbly we are human and can err. To maintain the resurrection happened exactly as we interpret it is to be stubborn and closed minded and God gave us minds to use not follow blindly without looking at this subject from all angles.

It could have been a purely spiritual resurrection that the disciples witnessed in visions and dreams not necessarily the traditionally accepted view that contradicts logic, reason and science which are also God given.

 

[Earthling]

To be honest, Logos sounds like a catch-term phrase that could be simplified in english. Since its overly stated, the best definition online I can get is:

They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo of Alexandria, a 1st-century-ad Jewish philosopher, .

Another definition says thats the name of Christ.

Metaphysics

Christ was with god? Is that what you are saying?

It means word, did you know? The Hebrew word for word is davar, and the Greek is logos. He, Jesus, is called the Word of God because he was God's spokesperson.

 

[MJ Bailey]

With old notes and online. I have not read a distinct answer to this repeated question. Normally it's in the middle of other topics.

How is jesus a sacrifice when he does not die?

A sacrifice is when you give something up of value for another person's wellbeing. Jesus said he sacrificed himself for your wellbeing. But what exactly did he loose in order to relate to you so that you are saved?

Edit. Actually, below are better questions: what's the definition of sacrifice and is there a higher one than giving up ones life.

Is there another definition of the Highest sacrifice that is beyond giving up ones life? (Probably a better question )

What' the definition of Christian sacrifice to where jesus can give himself up without dying?

Mind you I did not read other replies, and will thus apologize if I repeat anyone else; have you ever died and returned to life? Born human then returning to pure existence then again returning to life I believe would be quite the experience. Yet still doing this with the knowledge that if you die you may or may not be a part of the eternal existence just to assure others can is beyond honorable and someone in whom I believe deserves recognition.

 

[Faithofchristian]

With old notes and online. I have not read a distinct answer to this repeated question. Normally it's in the middle of other topics.

How is jesus a sacrifice when he does not die?

A sacrifice is when you give something up of value for another person's wellbeing. Jesus said he sacrificed himself for your wellbeing. But what exactly did he loose in order to relate to you so that you are saved?

Edit. Actually, below are better questions: what's the definition of sacrifice and is there a higher one than giving up ones life.

Is there another definition of the Highest sacrifice that is beyond giving up ones life? (Probably a better question )

What' the definition of Christian sacrifice to where jesus can give himself up without dying?

The flesh and blood body of Christ Jesus did die on the cross. So only the body of Christ Jesus was given up as a sacrifice.

Can you give where exactly it is written, In the bible in what book and chapter and verses, That Christ Jesus had to die completely.
God made himself a body to come down here in, the body of Jesus was then offered up as a sacrifice for the atonement for the sin of the world.

As in the book of Hebrews 10:5, it is written in verse 5---"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me"

Therefore it was the body of Christ Jesus that was prepared to die.

As written in the book of
Hebrews 10:10---"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

Therefore it's by the offering of the body of Christ Jesus, that people are sanctified.

Therefore only the body of Christ Jesus that died, As there is nothing written, saying that both the body and soul of Christ Jesus had to die.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Mind you I did not read other replies, and will thus apologize if I repeat anyone else; have you ever died and returned to life? Born human then returning to pure existence then again returning to life I believe would be quite the experience. Yet still doing this with the knowledge that if you die you may or may not be a part of the eternal existence just to assure others can is beyond honorable and someone in whom I believe deserves recognition.

I don't believe anyone can do that. If jesus lived on a different planet, not human, or so have you he could have done anything. Since over two thousand years is no different than today in terms of the same reality, I disagree one hundred percent that that is even possible. Assume that these type things stop existing when the church developed. Who knows the year. I don't think any christian answered that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The flesh and blood body of Christ Jesus did die on the cross. So only the body of Christ Jesus was given up as a sacrifice.

Can you give where exactly it is written, In the bible in what book and chapter and verses, That Christ Jesus had to die completely.
God made himself a body to come down here in, the body of Jesus was then offered up as a sacrifice for the atonement for the sin of the world.

As in the book of Hebrews 10:5, it is written in verse 5---"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me"

Therefore it was the body of Christ Jesus that was prepared to die.

As written in the book of
Hebrews 10:10---"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"

Therefore it's by the offering of the body of Christ Jesus, that people are sanctified.

Therefore only the body of Christ Jesus that died, As there is nothing written, saying that both the body and soul of Christ Jesus had to die.

How do you partially die?

 

[Faithofchristian]

How do you partially die?

You ask, How do you partially die, Your body of flesh and blood is what dies.
But your spirit that is within your body does not die.

As Christ Jesus has said in the book of Matthew 10:28---"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

So it is only God can destroy both body and soul.
So the body of flesh and blood dies, but the spirit which is in the body does not die, only until at the Great White Throne judgement of God's, Then only God shall determine what body and soul shall die.

But until then, only our body of flesh and blood dies and returns back to the earth. But our Spirit returns back to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You ask, How do you partially die, Your body of flesh and blood is what dies.
But your spirit that is within your body does not die.

As Christ Jesus has said in the book of Matthew 10:28---"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

So it is only God can destroy both body and soul.
So the body of flesh and blood dies, but the spirit which is in the body does not die, only until at the Great White Throne judgement of God's, Then only God shall determine what body and soul shall die.

But until then, only our body of flesh and blood dies and returns back to the earth. But our Spirit returns back to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

It's not a sacrifice. The body is irrelevant compared to the spirit, for sake of argument. So, the spirit would have to die in order for it to be a true sacrifice from god himself.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It's not a sacrifice. The body is irrelevant compared to the spirit, for sake of argument. So, the spirit would have to die in order for it to be a true sacrifice from god himself.

Nope not at all. There is nothing written that says the Spirit has to die, for it to be a true sacrifice.
But if there were such a thing written, then it would haved been useless for Christ Jesus to had said what he did in the book of Matthew 10:28--"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Then how could God destroy the spirit,
if it were already dead ?

And what about Ecclesiastes 12:7--" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

So what's going to return back to God, a dead spirit.
Nope, Your spirit is eternal until God decides whether your spirit lives or dies.

Look your body of flesh and blood, is only temporary in this world, once your body grows old and dies, you, yourself ( spirit) returns back to be with God, until God decides, whether you die or live.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nope not at all. There is nothing written that says the Spirit has to die, for it to be a true sacrifice.
But if there were such a thing written, then it would haved been useless for Christ Jesus to had said what he did in the book of Matthew 10:28--"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
Then how could God destroy the spirit,
if it were already dead ?

And what about Ecclesiastes 12:7--" Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

So what's going to return back to God, a dead spirit.
Nope, Your spirit is eternal until God decides whether your spirit lives or dies.

Look your body of flesh and blood, is only temporary in this world, once your body grows old and dies, you, yourself ( spirit) returns back to be with God, until God decides, whether you die or live.

What does christian sacrifice mean?

When I think of giving something up of value, what is of most value to a person is their spirit. If you cant give up your spirit, there is no sacrifice. So, unless sacrifice means something else than its common definition, no one can give up whats most value. Our bodies suffer and die anyway; so, that isn't sacrifice. Something of value would be your spirit.

If you (or christ) cant give up whats of most value, your spirit, why call it a sacrifice? Is there another word you can use more appropriate?

 

[Faithofchristian]

What does christian sacrifice mean?

When I think of giving something up of value, what is of most value to a person is their spirit. If you cant give up your spirit, there is no sacrifice. So, unless sacrifice means something else than its common definition, no one can give up whats most value. Our bodies suffer and die anyway; so, that isn't sacrifice. Something of value would be your spirit.

If you (or christ) cant give up whats of most value, your spirit, why call it a sacrifice? Is there another word you can use more appropriate?

Well first, are you wanting to talking about what a Christian sacrifice means?

Or are you wanting to talk about the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

It seems your talking about to totally different subjects.
One Christian sacrifice and one being Christ Jesus sacrifice.

So which one are you referring to.

My sacrifice as a Christian, is that I put God first in all I do.
To sacrifice ( give up all the world has to offer) and take hold of what God has to offer me.
Can the world give eternal life.
God gives eternal life. To those who sacrifice all the world has to offer and take hold of what God has to offer of eternal life.

Now as for the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus gave his body as a ransom, in the place of your life.
In other words, Christ Jesus gave his life, in the place of yours.

That by the law of God's, blood has to given for the Atonement of breaking God's law.
For our sin of breaking God's law our blood was required for the Atonement of breaking God's law
Christ Jesus step in and gave his body of flesh and blood in our place, to buy us some time to get ourselves right with God.

 

[`mud]

When one `sins` against another, why does `God` have to forgive one ?
I always think that the people around one must bare that burden.
Most don't, Jesus couldn't have known, and `God` will forgive all.
The recievers of the `sins` should give the forgiving, but they won't.
Those that do, will find they're `heaven` on Earth, before they're afterlife.
And what about the Christian `hell`, from where does this forgiving come ?
All these `Gods`, Jesus, idols, heaven, and hell, confuse me, LIFE is enough.
Death is on it's own, do no harm, toss the coin, and Pascal takes the cake.

 

[Windwalker]

So the Logos was the god with whom the God was?

Logos is God manifesting, or the "agent" of God's manifesting. All creation is an expression of the formless, unknowable Divine, which is the Logos making the Divine "clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and Godhead". All that exists, is through the Logos, or God's "agent" of manifestation of the formless Godhead into form. "Making God known".

The Trinity is not three "people" or "gods". Those terms are simply expressions to try to see different aspects of the same "One". "The Father" is the eternal unmanifest nature of Godhead. "The Son", or Logos, is the eternal manifesting of the eternal formless into form. "The Holy Spirit" is the penetration of the Divine Reality in all form, the "immanence" of God, in other words. There is no "the god" in there at all. Through the Holy Spirit, we see the Logos radiating the divine Reality into form, and through the Logos, we empty ourselves into timeless eternal, which is itself in all things.

Don't try to make it a cartoon story with "gods" and whatnot sitting around a table having a discussion about what to do about all these fake churches, and whatnot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One way to think of sacrifice is giving up one's religion for someone else's well being. In other words, thinking of someone else before one's self. This hard to do because we are so attached to our selves (our family, our faith, our lives) that to think of someone else to that extent would be near to none.

Well first, are you wanting to talking about what a Christian sacrifice means?

I would think they are the same just different people and reasons. Being religious in nature wouldnt ideally make a difference to the definition.

Or are you wanting to talk about the sacrifice of Christ Jesus.

It seems your talking about to totally different subjects.
One Christian sacrifice and one being Christ Jesus sacrifice.

So which one are you referring to.

I understand the sacrifice of jesus as in what happened, who, how, and why according to scripture. The nature of the sacrifice, I understand. What I am asking is more since jesus died for your sins, did jesus actually die...in other words, if someone were to sacrifice their greatest value, it would be their spirit or say religion (to some religions) and life to others. But, if you cannot give up your spirit for someone else and the body is irreverent whether tortured or not, there is no sacrifice/giving anything of Greatest value.

The only way you can give up something of greatest value in this sense is to give up your spirit and die eternally for the wellbeing of another.

My sacrifice as a Christian, is that I put God first in all I do.

To sacrifice ( give up all the world has to offer) and take hold of what God has to offer me.
Can the world give eternal life.

God gives eternal life. To those who sacrifice all the world has to offer and take hold of what God has to offer of eternal life.

To me, that isnt a sacrifice. The greatest thing in your case would be your faith in god. While its not required to give up your greatest sacrifice; to me, if someone says they sacrifice their greatest value its beyond earthly. It something eternal that one gives up as a gift to save someone else.

Now as for the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus gave his body as a ransom, in the place of your life.

In other words, Christ Jesus gave his life, in the place of yours.

When I hear this, the first think I think of is that was only 2000 some odd years ago. If we were transported back then, I wonder if we would feel the same or depreciate present experiences for old or authentic ones. The further back, the more acceptable and believe able miracles are. That always puzzled me as if life and physics changed throughout the centuries.

That by the law of God's, blood has to given for the Atonement of breaking God's law.

For our sin of breaking God's law our blood was required for the Atonement of breaking God's law
Christ Jesus step in and gave his body of flesh and blood in our place, to buy us some time to get ourselves right with God.

Yes. I heard this before as well.

Sacrifice to you isnt giving up something of greatest value?

 

[Earthling]

Logos is God manifesting, or the "agent" of God's manifesting. All creation is an expression of the formless, unknowable Divine, which is the Logos making the Divine "clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and Godhead". All that exists, is through the Logos, or God's "agent" of manifestation of the formless Godhead into form. "Making God known".

To a religious person who believes the statement above it may sound like music to their ears. To a practical person such as myself it sounds like meaningless, mythical nonsense.

What is the Greek word for "manifesting?" Where is the scripture to support all of that, if one were to actually try to make any sense of it? Godhead. Where is that in the Bible? Sorry, but to me, the above quote from you sounds like theology gone mad.

The Trinity is not three "people" or "gods". Those terms are simply expressions to try to see different aspects of the same "One". "The Father" is the eternal unmanifest nature of Godhead. "The Son", or Logos, is the eternal manifesting of the eternal formless into form. "The Holy Spirit" is the penetration of the Divine Reality in all form, the "immanence" of God, in other words. There is no "the god" in there at all. Through the Holy Spirit, we see the Logos radiating the divine Reality into form, and through the Logos, we empty ourselves into timeless eternal, which is itself in all things.

Well, that must come in handy when the unwashed heathen are approaching. The trinity is pagan nonsense. From ancient Babylon to Greek philosophy to the apostate Christian tradition and the sun worshiper Constantine. It's contrary to scripture.

Don't try to make it a cartoon story with "gods" and whatnot sitting around a table having a discussion about what to do about all these fake churches, and whatnot.

God already has said what he will do to them and it doesn't read like a cartoon, it reads like the book of Revelation, because that's what it is. Babylon the Great.

 

[Windwalker]

To a religious person who believes the statement above it may sound like music to their ears. To a practical person such as myself it sounds like meaningless, mythical nonsense.

Since when is the spiritual concrete pragmatism? Is not God by definition "ineffable", meaning not able to put into concrete-literal words and terms? I think you're talking about a Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster here, not God.

What is the Greek word for "manifesting?" Where is the scripture to support all of that, if one were to actually try to make any sense of it? Godhead. Where is that in the Bible? Sorry, but to me, the above quote from you sounds like theology gone mad.

You need to study scripture. Romans 1:20, "Even his eternal power and godhead". Manifesting? "Who being the brightness of his glory and express image of his person". "The Son who is in the boosom of the Father, he has declared him", etc., etc., etc. Lots of verses that explicity speak of the Son as the Manifestor of God. the word Logos itself innately converys that. "He was the Light that shines forth", etc. That is manifesting.

What is mad, is reducing God down to cartoon characters as literal facts.

Well, that must come in handy when the unwashed heathen are approaching. The trinity is pagan nonsense. From ancient Babylon to Greek philosophy to the apostate Christian tradition and the sun worshiper Constantine. It's contrary to scripture.

Yeah, no it's not. You are just expressing ignorance on the topic, and a cartoon caricature of what the trinitarian formulation is actually expressing. It's not literal "persons" or gods, or monkeys, or Jehovah's Witness nonsense.

For the record, in my view the Trinitarian formulation is simply a way to talk about different aspects of the one single, divine reality. It's not a definition of how God is somehow "constructed", or some other such literalist nonsense. God is beyond such expressions. It's only a way for US to talk about the Divine from our perspectives. Not what God "is". Not at all.

God already has said what he will do to them and it doesn't read like a cartoon, it reads like the book of Revelation, because that's what it is. Babylon the Great.

Oh yes, that nonsense. Yep, the JWs and their incestuous affair with their reading of the book of Revelation. Hogwash.

 

[Brickjectivity]

How is jesus a sacrifice when he does not die?

There's dogma, and there is the way things actually work. You are focusing upon dogma, and dogmatic terms are being used to answer you. The words were written before the times of rational discourse when you were expected to look beyond the words to what they meant. You were expected to be familiar with Jewish life and the nature of sacrifices. Being unfamiliar with it you are getting confused by the answers. Having gotten out your physical Bible you have found yourself on the same treadmill as the protestors and myself. Another analogy is sliding down a fairly steep cliff trying to grasp at passing shrubs to stop one's fall. The dogmas are important but so is the cultural background. There's a huge generation gap caused by what I do not know for sure. Maybe too many people were killed off to pass on the culture?

It's not a sacrifice. The body is irrelevant compared to the spirit, for sake of argument. So, the spirit would have to die in order for it to be a true sacrifice from god himself.

What do you feel a sacrifice is? To the Egyptians its one thing. To Jews its going to be something else. Have you or has anyone you know ever seen a sacrifice? Its been over a thousand years. There are no descriptions anywhere of what its actually like. Most of what we hear about them are fanciful stories by people who've never been there. Why 3/10s of an ephah? What I hear in this thread is a bunch of ignorance being hammered down on you by people who themselves are just parroting words about sacrifice, about Jesus death. Nobody seems to know anything about sacrifice but hearsay. Your big Bible isn't helping you, either. You simply lack any experience that is Jewish, and so you've no clue what a sacrifice is. You know blood is involved usually, and that's about it. Therefore you cannot understand how Jesus death could be interpreted as one. One camp says it must have been satisfaction of God's bloodthirst. The other says its some kind of magical thingy. Many people in the thread so far have only been able to come up with substitution. Jesus dies and takes your sins upon himself. That's dogmatic terminology with no cultural references -- no nut'n bolts -- no understanding of how it works. Sin swallowing. No wonder people believe in exorcisms. No wonder we are all mired in this disastrous gunk that is called contemporary worship. No wonder things are going to hell and Christians can't stop it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's dogma, and there is the way things actually work. You are focusing upon dogma, and dogmatic terms are being used to answer you. The words were written before the times of rational discourse when you were expected to look beyond the words to what they meant. You were expected to be familiar with Jewish life and the nature of sacrifices. Being unfamiliar with it you are getting confused by the answers. Having gotten out your physical Bible you have found yourself on the same treadmill as the protestors and myself. Another analogy is sliding down a fairly steep cliff trying to grasp at passing shrubs to stop one's fall. The dogmas are important but so is the cultural background. There's a huge generation gap caused by what I do not know for sure. Maybe too many people were killed off to pass on the culture?

What do you feel a sacrifice is? To the Egyptians its one thing. To Jews its going to be something else. Have you or has anyone you know ever seen a sacrifice? Its been over a thousand years. There are no descriptions anywhere of what its actually like. Most of what we hear about them are fanciful stories by people who've never been there. Why 3/10s of an ephah? What I hear in this thread is a bunch of ignorance being hammered down on you by people who themselves are just parroting words about sacrifice, about Jesus death. Nobody seems to know anything about sacrifice but hearsay. Your big Bible isn't helping you, either. You simply lack any experience that is Jewish, and so you've no clue what a sacrifice is. You know blood is involved usually, and that's about it. Therefore you cannot understand how Jesus death could be interpreted as one. One camp says it must have been satisfaction of God's bloodthirst. The other says its some kind of magical thingy. Many people in the thread so far have only been able to come up with substitution. Jesus dies and takes your sins upon himself. That's dogmatic terminology with no cultural references -- no nut'n bolts -- no understanding of how it works. Sin swallowing. No wonder people believe in exorcisms. No wonder we are all mired in this disastrous gunk that is called contemporary worship. No wonder things are going to hell and Christians can't stop it.

I see a lot of you-you-yous. I cant find what you are saying.

Im using sacrifice as to you give something up value (life, animal, spirit, whatever) for the wellbeing (salvation, life, care, etc) of another person.

Dogma and spirituality go hand in hand. If not, the bible is useless. If jesus died to save you from your sins, how did die in the manner of flesh and spirit? Since we are spirit, that something-of-value is our spirit not our flesh. If we cant give that up, it is not the Greatest Sacrifice.

That said, what did jesus sacrifice if he, like a human being, is spirit or soul (however termed)?

Spirits or souls cant ideally die; so, is there another type of sacrifice other than animal and human (death of something) that qualifies as a Greatest Sacrifice?

Some posts say the sacrifice is pain not death. That makes more sense. What are your thoughts?