Okay. I got my physical bible out

[Brickjectivity]

Im using sacrifice as to you give something up value (life, animal, spirit, whatever) for the wellbeing (salvation, life, care, etc) of another person.

Then Jesus death will never make rational sense. Just accept the answers given. Aka he died in your place and your guilt was magically transferred to him. Now you can do anything you want as long as you say you are sorry.

Dogma and spirituality go hand in hand. If not, the bible is useless. If jesus died to save you from your sins, how did die in the manner of flesh and spirit? Since we are spirit, that something-of-value is our spirit not our flesh. If we cant give that up, it is not the Greatest Sacrifice.

For many people the Bible is useless or hadn't you noticed. You are telling me we are spirit as if you know something, Since you know so much why are you having to ask why Jesus death is a sacrifice?

 

[Riders]

Check Exodus 29:12 for one among many other scriptures.

When you receive the Spirit of Jesus then what does that make you? It makes you part of Jesus' body. THis is how the Father will recognize anyone who is in the true body of Christ. Because the Spirit of Christ will be in them.

This is how Jesus was made a "life giving Spirit". (1 Corinthians 15:45) Jesus resurrection becomes our resurrection. (John 6:39, Romans 8:11) Because the Spirit of Jesus is in us; making us the body of Christ.

This was predicted in Isaiah 26:19

Peop

Check Exodus 29:12 for one among many other scriptures.

When you receive the Spirit of Jesus then what does that make you? It makes you part of Jesus' body. THis is how the Father will recognize anyone who is in the true body of Christ. Because the Spirit of Christ will be in them.

This is how Jesus was made a "life giving Spirit". (1 Corinthians 15:45) Jesus resurrection becomes our resurrection. (John 6:39, Romans 8:11) Because the Spirit of Jesus is in us; making us the body of Christ.

This was predicted in Isaiah 26:19

No body does animal sacrufices these days its illegal and I do not need to do all the rituals and rules from the old testament technically its not possible.

 

[Riders]

Then Jesus death will never make rational sense. Just accept the answers given. Aka he died in your place and your guilt was magically transferred to him. Now you can do anything you want as long as you say you are sorry.

For many people the Bible is useless or hadn't you noticed. You are telling me we are spirit as if you know something, Since you know so much why are you having to ask why Jesus death is a sacrifice?

ROTFLMAO yes funny how Christians tend to go through the alter call process every time they start sinning. LOL just believe your sins are magically transferred yes Christians believe in magic they say the sinners prayer as a ritual to as if it magically will save them,its a spell say the prayer and your problems all get better,say it and you are saved from hell /

 

[`mud]

and.....please Mother Mary forgive me.....
so I can go out and sin again !

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Then Jesus death will never make rational sense. Just accept the answers given. Aka he died in your place and your guilt was magically transferred to him. Now you can do anything you want as long as you say you are sorry.

How did he die when we arent defined by flesh but by spirit?

You can internally transfer your guilt literally and personally on any person. Its not magic. Its something you can do with your mind and how you empathize with whomever you want to place your guilt on. Though, transferring your guilt doesnt excuse you to do whatever you want as long as you ask forgiveness. I see mafia do that. Kill someone, go to confession, and go back to murder some more.

For many people the Bible is useless or hadn't you noticed. You are telling me we are spirit as if you know something, Since you know so much why are you having to ask why Jesus death is a sacrifice?

Why the accusation???? RF doesnt have any strings attached: you can only ask about christianity if you are concerned about your religion, want to know personally, a seeker, or willing convert. Thats silly. I never heard of other religions that do that. I found out Muslims do. Bahai seems to. But never heard that in person but from Christians and Muslims.

I said, the bible would be useless if not going by dogma in relationship with spirituality. Its a statement of observation. My beliefs excluded.

Since you know so much why are you having to ask why Jesus death is a sacrifice?​

Why the accusation? Its a huge assumption. Please rephrase because I dont care for the tone.

 

[Brickjectivity]

ROTFLMAO yes funny how Christians tend to go through the alter call process every time they start sinning. LOL just believe your sins are magically transferred yes Christians believe in magic they say the sinners prayer as a ritual to as if it magically will save them,its a spell say the prayer and your problems all get better,say it and you are saved from hell /

I am not against Christianity, but I am against Bible-only Christianity. I am against the Gideon's dropping Bibles as if they were seeds.

 

[Faithofchristian]

One way to think of sacrifice is giving up one's religion for someone else's well being. In other words, thinking of someone else before one's self. This hard to do because we are so attached to our selves (our family, our faith, our lives) that to think of someone else to that extent would be near to none.



I would think they are the same just different people and reasons. Being religious in nature wouldnt ideally make a difference to the definition.



I understand the sacrifice of jesus as in what happened, who, how, and why according to scripture. The nature of the sacrifice, I understand. What I am asking is more since jesus died for your sins, did jesus actually die...in other words, if someone were to sacrifice their greatest value, it would be their spirit or say religion (to some religions) and life to others. But, if you cannot give up your spirit for someone else and the body is irreverent whether tortured or not, there is no sacrifice/giving anything of Greatest value.

The only way you can give up something of greatest value in this sense is to give up your spirit and die eternally for the wellbeing of another.



To me, that isnt a sacrifice. The greatest thing in your case would be your faith in god. While its not required to give up your greatest sacrifice; to me, if someone says they sacrifice their greatest value its beyond earthly. It something eternal that one gives up as a gift to save someone else.



When I hear this, the first think I think of is that was only 2000 some odd years ago. If we were transported back then, I wonder if we would feel the same or depreciate present experiences for old or authentic ones. The further back, the more acceptable and believe able miracles are. That always puzzled me as if life and physics changed throughout the centuries.



Yes. I heard this before as well.

Sacrifice to you isnt giving up something of greatest value?

Let's take what you said at the top
( One way to think of sacrifice is giving up one's religion for someone else's well being. In other words, thinking of someone else before one's self. This hard to do because we are so attached to our selves (our family, our faith, our lives) that to think of someone else to that extent would be near to none)
What you said here, is exactly what Christ Jesus did for us humans. Thinking of us before thinking of himself. Thereby Jesus gave his blood in our place.

Now for what you said ( I would think they are the same just different people and reasons. Being religious in nature wouldnt ideally make a difference to the definition)

The Sacrifice of Christ Jesus is totally different than the Sacrifice that Christians would do.

The Sacrifice of Christ Jesus are for those who accepts the sacrifice,atonement for their sin against God.

As it is written in the book of John 3:16---
---"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

To those who believe in the Sacrifice, atonement of Christ Jesus, everlasting life.

According to what is written above, those who do not accept the sacrifice,atonement, of Christ Jesus are the outcast.

You said ( What I am asking is more since jesus died for your sins, did jesus actually die)
To answer this, you would have to understand, The body of flesh and blood died. God within the body of Jesus can not die, for God is eternal, that God can not die.

God gave the body of flesh and blood of Jesus for sacrifice as the atonement for our sin.

No human being can give their spirit for an exchange for another human being.
Christ Jesus only gave his body of flesh and blood for sacrifice, and not his spirit.

You said ( But, if you cannot give up your spirit for someone else and the body is irreverent whether tortured or not, there is no sacrifice/giving anything of Greatest value)
The answer to this, how can someone give their spirit, when their spirit does not belong to them, When their spirit belongs to God, a person can not give something that doesn't belong to them.

All human beings belong to God, body and spirit. So no one can not give what doesn't belong to them.
Without God everything would cease to exist. Everything was made by God.

As you said ( The only way you can give up something of greatest value in this sense is to give up your spirit and die eternally for the wellbeing of another)

But why would anyone want to give up their eternal life for someone else?

We all will be held accountable for ourselves.
Book of Romans 14:12--"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God"

So what good would it do, for a person to give up their spirit for someone else, When that person will still be held accountable for themselves to God.

You said ( When I hear this, the first think I think of is that was only 2000 some odd years ago. If we were transported back then, I wonder if we would feel the same or depreciate present experiences for old or authentic ones. The further back, the more acceptable and believe able miracles are. That always puzzled me as if life and physics changed throughout the centuries)

People back then people had more faith in what they believe in. Then people do to day.
To day people will say, Why does God allow the things that's going on in the world.

For those people, God did try not to allow things go on in the world.
But just like those people back then, the people of to day, still in rebellion against God.
Just look around at how people are doing, by what they are doing shows their rebellion against God.

In talking about miracles, When God does something, it will be something that has never ever been done before or ever seen before.
Think about it, if people seen something that has never ever been seen or done before. How would people react to it.

Let's for say, all of a sudden people look up in the sky and the whole sky was burning with fire, But yet the earth is not burning nor the trees, grass, nor anything on earth.

How do you think, how people would react to that?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Why the accusation???? RF doesnt have any strings attached: you can only ask about christianity if you are concerned about your religion, want to know personally, a seeker, or willing convert. Thats silly. I never heard of other religions that do that. I found out Muslims do. Bahai seems to. But never heard that in person but from Christians and Muslims.

I don't understand. I don't feel like I am accusing you of anything. I'm sorry for any accusation in the paragraph. I don't intend any accusation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

To a religious person who believes the statement above it may sound like music to their ears. To a practical person such as myself it sounds like meaningless, mythical nonsense.

What is the Greek word for "manifesting?" Where is the scripture to support all of that, if one were to actually try to make any sense of it? Godhead. Where is that in the Bible? Sorry, but to me, the above quote from you sounds like theology gone mad.

Ha. Yeah. Ha. Yeah.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let's take what you said at the top
( One way to think of sacrifice is giving up one's religion for someone else's well being. In other words, thinking of someone else before one's self. This hard to do because we are so attached to our selves (our family, our faith, our lives) that to think of someone else to that extent would be near to none)
What you said here, is exactly what Christ Jesus did for us humans. Thinking of us before thinking of himself. Thereby Jesus gave his blood in our place.

Now for what you said ( I would think they are the same just different people and reasons. Being religious in nature wouldnt ideally make a difference to the definition)

The Sacrifice of Christ Jesus is totally different than the Sacrifice that Christians would do.

The Sacrifice of Christ Jesus are for those who accepts the sacrifice,atonement for their sin against God.

As it is written in the book of John 3:16---
---"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

To those who believe in the Sacrifice, atonement of Christ Jesus, everlasting life.

According to what is written above, those who do not accept the sacrifice,atonement, of Christ Jesus are the outcast.

You said ( What I am asking is more since jesus died for your sins, did jesus actually die)
To answer this, you would have to understand, The body of flesh and blood died. God within the body of Jesus can not die, for God is eternal, that God can not die.

God gave the body of flesh and blood of Jesus for sacrifice as the atonement for our sin.

No human being can give their spirit for an exchange for another human being.
Christ Jesus only gave his body of flesh and blood for sacrifice, and not his spirit.

You said ( But, if you cannot give up your spirit for someone else and the body is irreverent whether tortured or not, there is no sacrifice/giving anything of Greatest value)
The answer to this, how can someone give their spirit, when their spirit does not belong to them, When their spirit belongs to God, a person can not give something that doesn't belong to them.

All human beings belong to God, body and spirit. So no one can not give what doesn't belong to them.
Without God everything would cease to exist. Everything was made by God.

As you said ( The only way you can give up something of greatest value in this sense is to give up your spirit and die eternally for the wellbeing of another)

But why would anyone want to give up their eternal life for someone else?

We all will be held accountable for ourselves.
Book of Romans 14:12--"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God"

So what good would it do, for a person to give up their spirit for someone else, When that person will still be held accountable for themselves to God.

You said ( When I hear this, the first think I think of is that was only 2000 some odd years ago. If we were transported back then, I wonder if we would feel the same or depreciate present experiences for old or authentic ones. The further back, the more acceptable and believe able miracles are. That always puzzled me as if life and physics changed throughout the centuries)

People back then people had more faith in what they believe in. Then people do to day.
To day people will say, Why does God allow the things that's going on in the world.

For those people, God did try not to allow things go on in the world.
But just like those people back then, the people of to day, still in rebellion against God.
Just look around at how people are doing, by what they are doing shows their rebellion against God.

In talking about miracles, When God does something, it will be something that has never ever been done before or ever seen before.
Think about it, if people seen something that has never ever been seen or done before. How would people react to it.

Let's for say, all of a sudden people look up in the sky and the whole sky was burning with fire, But yet the earth is not burning nor the trees, grass, nor anything on earth.

How do you think, how people would react to that?

Oh my gosh. Can you quote my responses so I can find your posts among my comments?

 

[Earthling]

Since when is the spiritual concrete pragmatism?

Spiritual concrete? No.

Is not God by definition "ineffable", meaning not able to put into concrete-literal words and terms?

No.

I think you're talking about a Yeti or the Loch Ness Monster here, not God.

I think you are thinking of Greek philosophy. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Empedocles, etc.

You need to study scripture. Romans 1:20, "Even his eternal power and godhead".

Let me help you. It's the Greek Theiotes, related to Theos “God,” Latin, Divinitas. See Acts of The Apostles 17:29, "Divine being, Greek, Theion, also related to Theos, “God” Latin, Divinum. What these words are really saying is "divine." Like Chocolate cake is "divine" means that it's "heavenly." The Syriac P e s h i t t a and the Latin Vulgate render the word as divinity. Liddell and Scott's Greek English Lexicon does as well. Trinitarians, however, like to make it look like it's about the trinity. It isn't.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't understand. I don't feel like I am accusing you of anything. I'm sorry for any accusation in the paragraph. I don't intend any accusation.

For many people the Bible is useless or hadn't you noticed. You are telling me we are spirit as if you know something, Since you know so much why are you having to ask why Jesus death is a sacrifice?

I dont take to sarcasm very well. Thats what I know of christianity. We are spirit. The holy spirit and when you sin, its sin of the spirit acted in the flesh. But, I dont know how flesh can sin. Everything we do and feel is mind-related. If we address our mind, our heart will follow.

But, yeah. When christians say statements without saying its their opinion or something, it sounds like the their statement is imposing on the person they speak with. I did the same thing. I know its a fact; but, in no means mean to impose on your beliefs.

Why am I asking about the death of jesus? There is no hidden reason. Im not a seeker. Im not converting. RF doesnt have a clause on reasons why we ask questions of other peoples faith. I notice christians, muslims, and now bahais do it. Its a pet peeve.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I dont take to sarcasm very well.

Point taken. My human skills totally suck, and I'm really sorry.

 

[Windwalker]

Spiritual concrete? No.

Then why do you get upset when someone speaks of the divine in metaphoric language? What, you want God to be a monkey or some other creature you can identify?

No.

God is not ineffable? Oh my. You really think God is like a man, don't you? I can't help you there. Good luck on your quest to find the ever-elusive Yeti/God you believe in. Did you search up in the himalayas yet? I'm sure he was spotted there not long back, standing next to a burning snowman.

 

[shmogie]

I assume the only way he can save you is if you have faith his sacrifice that long ago applies to you today?

Is it your faith that makes literal the sacrifice or does the sacrifice stand on its own (jesus saves others) despite your belief?

If the latter, how?

It stands on itś own in a substitutionary manner for any who choose to accept it.

Christ received what we deserve so we can receive what he deserved.

It doesn´t make any difference whether you believe, or not. The sacrifice is a historical literal event as well as a spiritual one.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Oh my gosh. Can you quote my responses so I can find your posts among my comments?

If you notice in each of your posts
Like this --> ( <--- at the beginning of your posts and at the
end of your posts) <--- ( <----> )

So your posts are in case--> ( so not to get mix up with what I said ) <----

 

[sun rise]

I'm tired of you Christian guys bragging on the torture beating of Jesus and claim it as unique and Jesus the only one who allowed himself to be whipped to death.

Since I'm not a Christian, that does not apply to me even though it was in response to my post.

I was paraphrasing Meher Baba:

Hence, God who is Infinite Bliss, binds Himself with suffering when He assumes human form. In short, God remains amidst mankind as man, only when He allows Himself to be bound by suffering.

The Sadguru has attained absolute freedom and therefore (as Man-God) has merely to play the part of suffering in bondage, just as an actor in a play lives the part of a king or a beggar while enacting it. On the other hand, the Avatar takes on bondage, and therefore, (as God-Man) actually "becomes" the role He has assumed and has to really suffer.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It stands on itś own in a substitutionary manner for any who choose to accept it.

Christ received what we deserve so we can receive what he deserved.

It doesn´t make any difference whether you believe, or not. The sacrifice is a historical literal event as well as a spiritual one.

How does it stand on its own?

To me it's like

1. God told jesus to save others
2. Jesus died and bled
3. People believed and had faith in what jesus said
4. Poof by their FAITH they are saved
Not by jesus sacrifice but by their faith in his death.

How does jesus death a sacrifice without a persons faith making it a sacrifice to see themselves saves by christ?

Can't figure how to phrase it. How is jesus physical death since spirits can die save you apart from your faith?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you notice in each of your posts
Like this --> ( <--- at the beginning of your posts and at the
end of your posts) <--- ( <----> )

So your posts are in case--> ( so not to get mix up with what I said ) <----

It will take me longer to disect what you said. You can highlight each text in sections and right (if right handed). Chose quote in the black box. When you finish highlighting and quoting, reply to open the post box, insert quotes.

That way you dont have to do them individually with the icon in the post box. Im assuming you're doing the long way. I'll try to disect it later.

 

[Windwalker]

To be honest, Logos sounds like a catch-term phrase that could be simplified in english. Since its overly stated, the best definition online I can get is:

They called the logos providence, nature, god, and the soul of the universe, which is composed of many seminal logoi that are contained in the universal logos. Philo of Alexandria, a 1st-century-ad Jewish philosopher, .

Another definition says thats the name of Christ.

Let's go with the first one with Philo. That's where one begins to get to know about and understand the framework which the author of John uses to present his take on the Logos. He does borrow from Philo's general idea, as well as Jewish concepts such as the Memra of Jehovah, in order to bridge the gap between Jewish and Greek through, with Philo being right in between as a launching place. So what John does is take that basic understanding that both would be relatively familiar with and presents his version of it with the Logos "in the beginning with God," through which all creation comes into being, this same Logos "became flesh and dwelt among us".

So to really understand what Logos means, you have to understand philosophically, or metaphysically how it was being used and how it would have been understood. What I say of it being the "Manifestor" of God is fully in keeping with the above.

Metaphysics

And?

Christ was with god? Is that what you are saying?

"With God', in John's prologue suggests an inseparable bond, a "face to face" intimate direction in his use of the world for "with". That means, I'd say at a deeper level, if such is possible, that the "Christ" which is the Manifesting or Manifestor of God, is both the "unmanifest and the manifest", and that the "division" is solely for our dualistic minds to try to conceive, as ultimately futile that is, to look at nonduality. Christ is in God and God is in Christ simply means they are inseparable realities of the divine Reality, not two beings.

So yes, "with God" and also "God". That is exactly what John says in his prologue.

If spirit is god, what does it mean when you separate god from spirit in the two paragraphs above?

You can't separate God from Spirit, only as points of reference for our human minds. You cannot understand the use the language here literally. It's not definitions, as definitions require you to draw a box around something and place it inside and give it a name and characteristics that set it apart from everything else. You simply cannot do that with God, without turning God into "god" with a small g, which is a projection of the human mind. If you define God, that's not God. That's your mind.

And so in reality, you will always run into a wall of contradiction and paradox when you started trying to use dualistic language to describe a nondual reality where there are no actual divisions. God is in all, through all, and is All. You can't slice off an ear and call that God.

In other words, god is in you and saves you internally by seperating your external nature to reveal the internal one???

No, not like that really. Taking a step back to describe this another way. God is the Reality that is all of us. God is who and what we are, inasmuch as we a creation of God, and creation is not separate from the Divine. For if it could be, then the Divine is not Absolute at all, but limited. Something exists outside it, and it outside something else. That makes God an "it" or an "entity" or some other such human projection of a dualistic nature. If there is any place there is not God, then God is not infinite at all, and therefore no God exists at all. God is not a block of swiss cheese.

So God is all of us, but not all of us see that or realize that about ourselves because we are lost inside the worlds of our own minds. We don't see what really is there, because reality of us consists of a house of mirrors insides of our heads we look at all day, out of the corners of our eyes to see how things fit into that world we created and lost ourselves within. Any true artist should understand this, hence the reason for art, to break free from the confines and restictions of our "thought" reality.

To break free from this, often takes something to "wake" you up. Otherwise, we're all just safe and secure in our ideas of reality, which really have our own ego as the wall that separates us from actual Reality. The ego is like the walls of house we construct and hang mirrors on to reflect ourselves back to ourselves to try to find and understand ourselves. This whole things, once the wall is shattered and the Light of Reality shines through, becomes seen as purely a fiction of our own making, through programming and culture, and our own individualizations within that process.

So you don't separate anything out. You simply transcend the ego defining reality for you. You're already separated. What needs to happens is to bring the whole thing together. And that, is salvation.

Huh? Cant translate.

Maybe what I explained above just now will help, as it's restating it another way. If that doesn't work, I'll see if I can't think of some other simpler analogy, if necessary.

I got the first part...

Oh. You separate the flesh/physical from the spirit saying the latter is deep and depreciating the former, the physical. I never understood why the material and spiritual arent seen the same in regards to spirituality. Thats what I was reffering to. It will take a bit to find your exact wording.

No. Not at all what I meant. I was specific when I said the "eye of the flesh". I didn't not say flesh is bad. Not at all. In fact my particular spiritual practices are very much physical. Whole tantric traditions are about finding the Divine through the flesh, or the material world. I could easily fit into that.

What I meant by my "the flesh", if I left the words "eye of" of it it inadvertently. is that of the limited mind thinking in terms of dualistic separation. It sees the world and evaluates it as this and that, dividing things apart into good and bad, light and dark, truth and lies, etc. It sees all of this, but doesn't look at the set of eyes that are looking. In other words it sees a projection of itself upon the screen of the universe and assumes it has found truth about reality, and ultimately about how they fit into that projection.

Then there is the eye of spirit, which sees beyond all that. It sees a much larger context of reality. It sees that all of these other images of reality, as practical as those may be, are not Reality at all. It sees All as it Is, "the kingdom of God" in other words.

In other words, letting go of ego so self can surface and you have insight and experience god?

Yes. You could use those words or other words, such as when you see beyond seeing-as-ego, when the ego is left on the floor like the clothes you take off before a shower, then you see what simply Is. Reality, with a capital R. I choose to call that God, but that use is beyond a separate "man" like deity "up there". That's just an image of the mind to reality to the Divine. I like to use Reality as a word at least as much, if not more.

Shrugs. I thought it more simple than that. When you give your life to christ, you no longer live for your own needs but christ needs. So he (Paul, I think?) no longer lives for himself but for the son of god. Spirituality dont need to be complicated and metaphoric.

Well, it sure as shooting ain't formulaic like that! LOL. That's the thing with so many Christians with their formulaic approach to God, like putting coins in the slot of an Indian fortune telling machine. Use correct currency to make the God hand out your salvation. Just get baptized. Just believe. Just say the sinner's prayer, etc. That, all of that is what makes it complex. It tries to imagine God like a gumball machine, just figure out how it works and you'll get the goodies.

No one said however that coming to the place to be willing to actually lay your life down, to lay down the ego at the altar and surrender it is, is extraordinarily difficult to do because of all the defenses we built up against that. It is the source of all our immortality projects, trying to create our name surviving, our bones preserved, etc. We are trying to hold on to the ego. Very few actually do surrender that, to move beyond that into the Life Divine. But once you walk through, it turns out to be a simple as taking off your clothes.

In other words, you need the body to experience the spirit?

You need the human body to experience Spirit in the human body.

Trying to translate your points.

Happy to help. But I am not holding back pushing beyond trying to box this into definitions and categories the mind wants to think in. Put on your artist's hat and see with those eyes as a start.