Religious Fanaticism: Is it a problem and what can we do?

[Gulo]

More fanatics are needed, particularly if they are sharing the Christian, saving gospel.

That seems narcissistically delusional to me.

IYO, were more Catholic Christian fanatics or Protestant Christian fanatics needed in Ireland during "The Troubles"?

 

[Deeje]

Thanks @Deeje,

Lets talk about Christianity for a while, though I don't want to single out any one religion out. Christianity in part because of its size and how long its been around has been involved in violence and wars, probably more than any other religion.

I couldn't agree more....but is it real Christianity we are talking about here? Do the actions of "the church" represent the teachings of the one they claim as their Lord? Anyone who knows what Christ taught will understand that he promoted peace to the extent of loving our enemies and praying for them. Unless you obey the teachings of the Christ...all of them...you cannot call yourself a Christian and have Jesus recognize you as one of his own.

In his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught us so many things. Matthew ch 5 e.g. touches on our behaviors and what kinds of thinking leads us to break God's laws.

V 19 says..."Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in relation to the Kingdom of the heavens.".....so breaking God's laws, even the least ones, let alone the more important ones, will not result in God's approval.

He then went on to say in the next verse....

"For I say to you that if your righteousness does not surpass that of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens."......Jesus then went onto quote some of the oral laws and to show what more was required to fulfill the Law of God by outlining where they fell short. The Pharisees thought that they were righteous....but God didn't and Jesus exposed them as hypocritical frauds.

So if the teachers in Christianity follow the example of the Pharisees and fail to practice what they teach (or rather what they should teach) then they can expect Jesus to judge them as those he "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23)

He said....in Verses 43-46..... “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing?"

Do we see Christendom following this directive? Its how we prove that we are God's children. I believe that Christendom will answer for her failure, because just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, they are misleading their flocks....who are now "lost" and asking questions for which Christendom's leaders has no answers.

 

[Deeje]

The other religion that's comparable is Islam. Hinduism and Buddhism are also large world religions that have been around a long time but neither has been responsible for nearly as much violence, death and mayhem as Christianity and Islam.

Old hatreds are hard to shake, and these two have also had their share of bloodshed. As these religions do not mean anything to me as a Christian, they are just part of what I believe is called "Babylon the great"....a world empire of false worship planted in the world by God's adversary to lead people away from the worship of the true God. We are not told to hate them , but to preach to them....what they do is up to them. We will happily co-exist with all people because we have no other choice at this point in time. God gives everyone many opportunities to cultivate their spirituality in the right way...but in the end, the choices are ours.

If we are honest and look at the sacred writings of both religions, there are verses where we have God instructing His followers to perpetrate acts of violence. The classic example in Christianity is the book of Joshua in the Hebrew Bible.

Remembering the times and the circumstances of each episode is important. It is God himself who mandated the death penalty for capital crimes. Every time Israel was involved in bloodshed, when they acted as God's authorized executioners, they were not bloodguilty as they had divine sanction on those occasions. OTOH when Israel shed blood without God's sanction, he punished them and withdrew his blessing, refusing to hear their prayers. (Isaiah 1:15)

So when we say fanaticism isn't endorsed in scripture, there is a long history of Christians who have argued that it is.

Christians have held diverse views towards violence and non-violence through time. Currently and historically there have been four views and practices within Christianity toward violence and war: non-resistance, Christian pacifism, Just war theory, and the Crusade (Holy or preventive war). Concepts such as "Holy war", whereby fighting itself might be considered a penitential and spiritually meritorious act, did not emerge before the 11th century.The concept of "Just war", whereby limited uses of war were considered acceptable originated with non-Christian Roman and Greek thinkers such as Cicero and Plato. Though this theory was adapted later by Christian thinkers such as St Augustine, the perspective was not based on the New Testament.The "Just War" concept was widely accepted early on. However, warfare was not regarded as a virtuous activity by some and expression for concern for the salvation of those who killed enemies in battle, regardless of the cause for which they fought, was common.

Christianity and violence - Wikipedia.

Again, is this describing "Christianity" or "Christendom"?

We do not see them as being one and the same thing. We see Christendom justifying and making excuses for NOT obeying the teachings of Jesus Christ in many ways....are they justified to God.....or just to themselves to excuse their behavior?

The difficulty with the argument you have around how peaceful Jesus was, is that the God of the New Testament is exactly the same God as in the Tanakh. Christ's ministry was relative brief being just 3 1/2 years and it simply wasn't pragmatic to take on the Romans as the Jews would have liked. There were instances where God did pick winners and losers in battles in the Tanakh. Those were times when war was necessary, so there's a time and a place for everything (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8).

The "Gentile Times" ( a foreordained period where Gentile nations would dominate God's people) had not run its course in Jesus' day. He said he had access to legions of angels if he had wanted to overthrow Rome, it would have been no contest...but Rome was to continue and give way to other world powers before he could introduce the rulership of his Kingdom.

As you know I don't believe in Satan. What I do believe is that people lose sight of God's purpose and their lower nature gets the better of them. Ego, anger, jealousy, hatred etc. You can call it Satan but I consider its just human nature.

Since Jesus was tempted by the devil and scripture tells us that he was sinless, there was no "lower nature" to Jesus to tempt him.

If Jesus was only tempted by what was inside of him, then why bother even mentioning these three occasions out of the countless times that we are tempted every day by our own desires? (James 1:13-15) If Jesus was real then so was satan, whom he mentioned often. The apostle Peter likened satan to a lion on the prowl for his next victim. (1 Peter 5:8)

We also hear one word that is used with particular application to the most heinous events in history, where humans perpetrated the most horrendous acts of violence and barbarity on other humans whom they considered their enemies......that word is "INHUMAN" meaning..."lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy; cruel and barbaric.....not human in nature or character." To me that explains why humans can at times carry out this level of barbarity...they are influenced by entities that are not human. Does the Bible identify these entities? Yes it does...satan the devil and his demons.

Obviously we have very different ideas about what will happen in the future. The JWs are waiting for all this apocalyptic literal fulfilment of revelation to happen. For the Baha'is most of it has happend already over the last 2,000 years. There is a vision for a more peaceful world in the Bible as in other religions too. That is something within our grasp to achieve.

Since your prophet did not usher in the blessings of God's Kingdom as was promised, (Revelation 21:2-4) I can only wonder why you put such store in the words of a mere mortal who came and died a second time for no apparent reason.

We see the Revelation undergoing fulfillment as we speak. Humans will never achieve true and lasting peace on this earth because human nature will not allow it. You are basing this change in human thinking on what? Past experience? Tell me when we ahve ever had peace on earth that lasted longer than a few years...? And how do you define peace anyway? It isn't just the absence of war....it has to go much deeper than that.

We hear a lot of talk about "tolerance" in today's world.....but I heard Oprah Winfrey once say how insulting that word really is.....what the world needs is not tolerance but love. Love doesn't just tolerate others, it gives people the basis to place all humanity on one level....to see others as your equal, not someone whose presence you need to tolerate so that you don't want to harm them. That is a thin veneer that will crack under the slightest pressure.
LOVE is so much stronger than mere tolerance.

I agree that the remedy needed only God can provide, but God requires us to play our part. That is exactly why I included the quote I did.

I understand your view, but God plays a much more active role in the Christian scenario.....that is because humans are not capable of bringing about the needed changes.....he's had thousands of years to get it right....and still we have national leaders threatening nuclear war just in the last couple of years. We see large amounts of money being placed before truth and justice. Humans are too far gone to fix anything by themselves. We have never been in a more precarious situation economically, politically and religiously speaking, than we are now. Mother Earth is groaning under the weight of her greedy inhabitants......this is why I believe that only God can fix this.

 

[siti]

So if the teachers in Christianity follow the example of the Pharisees and fail to practice what they teach (or rather what they should teach) then they can expect Jesus to judge them as those he "never knew"...He said....in Verses 43-46..... “You heard that it was said: ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Like this perhaps:

“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?" (Matthew 23:33 - New World Translation)

That sounds pretty fanatical - don't you think?

 

[Deeje]

Like this perhaps:

“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?" (Matthew 23:33 - New World Translation)

That sounds pretty fanatical - don't you think?

Was Jesus a fanatic then? He was pronouncing sentence on those who were leading his people to death.....it was a judgment, as the rightfully appointed judge.....it was not just a passing comment on what he thought of them personally.

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of those words from someone judging me.....would you?

 

[siti]

I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of those words from someone judging me.....would you?

Good heavens no! One might get the impression that one was not a loved enemy after all!

 

[Salvador]

After just about any religious zealot hears John Lennon's song Imagine, he/she will simply be inspired to do away with any of his/her religious inclinations. ..

If any religious zealot fails to get moved away from religion by this song, then he/she ought to have his/her God gene (VMAT2) mutated.

 

[Deeje]

Good heavens no! One might get the impression that one was not a loved enemy after all!

Yeah, you would.....but I guess if you expect "gehenna"...that is what you get......sounds fair to me.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'u'llah ...... said:
"Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction…."!

Of course he did!
It's just another 'sell'.....
Bahauallah's idea of Divine Power was a World Order, a Bahai World Order, with Bahais voting Bahai Government, directing Bahai Law thriough Bahai Policing.


It's more political than religious, imo...

 

[Windwalker]

Can we overcome religious fanaticism?

Religious fanaticism is an ego thing. If "we" can let go of the ego then "we" can overcome this. Tricky though "ego letting go of ego".
So we need to stop identifying with "ego", only then it's possible to let go religious fanaticism IMO. Arrogance is hard to cure.

I don't agree with this. Identifying with the ego, does not lead to fanaticism or extremism. If you were to make a bell curve diagram of a standard distribution of a population of those who identify with the ego, (which includes 99.95% of the world's population), you have a extremism (fanaticism) only existing at the two far edges of it, right wing extremism on the one edge and left wing at the other. The vast majority are in the middle bell curve areas somewhere and have more reasonable minds and are able to see other points of view other than their own, all while operating out of the ego as reality.

Extremism is symptomatic of a dysfunction of the healthy ego. A healthy, well-developed ego allows functionality in the world with others. A dysfunction of it creates divisions and polarizations at extreme levels, hating those who are unlike you, rather than learning how to find common ground and mutual respect despite differences. The latter is in fact something people who are still in their egos can and do learn. It does not require Enlightenment, a knowledge of the Self first in order to know how to cooperate with others in a society.

Fanaticism is a sign of egoic dysfunction, like a Narcissistic Personality Disorder of sorts, along with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, along with add whichever DSM category that fits into extremist behaviors of any sort. The cure for it is more fundamental than Enlightenment. It's basic developmental stages of growth, from early childhood through responsible adulthood. A disorder is when you should have learn the lessons you needed to for the ego to move to the next stage of development, but it got thwarted, such as someone's ego development halting at age 8, such as you see in the current President of the United States.

There are therapies that can help disorders like this, and frankly seeking Enlightenment before you heal the what is broken, often can just be a form of Spiritual Bypassing, escaping to God, which when they find the Truth, they now interpret with their dysfunctional, immature egos, as validating their narcissism. Finding God when you are mentally ill, can make you worse off by putting a stamp of Divine approval on your dysfunction. They weren't ready yet, at a relatively healthy form of their current stage of development, in order to be able to integrate Self Realization.

This is why in no small part it is not advised that those with disorders engage in meditation practices without someone to help keep them in check. They may misinterpret what they are exposing within themselves, and the pathways may get crossed, leading them further into their delusions, not out of them.

The root cause of the current polarizations we see happening has a different factor at the core than a lack of Enlightenment. Extreme Black and White thinking is symptomatic of that more fundamental issue, being stoked by politicians to create a poison in the body they can exploit, and we in our naivety allow them to do.

 

[stvdv]

Fanaticism is a sign of egoic dysfunction, like a Narcissistic Personality Disorder of sorts, along with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder,

Hence I ended the quote "Arrogance is hard to cure". Religious fanatism is "spiritual ego", meaning most extreme and dangerous arrogance "Spiritual narcissist"
The Most Dangerous Narcissist You'll Ever Meet

 

[Windwalker]

Hence I ended the quote "Arrogance is hard to cure". Religious fanatism is "spiritual ego", meaning most extreme and dangerous arrogance "Spiritual narcissist"
The Most Dangerous Narcissist You'll Ever Meet

You are conflating "spiritual ego" which is a trap of the ego normal healthy people can fall into naively, with narcissism which is a psychological dysfunction. Many can quite easily fall into "spiritual pride", which is an oxymoron, while not being a narcissist.

As I said in my post towards the end, someone coming into spiritual paths with a dysfunction in place already, can actually be made worse by it, as in the story you linked to. That is about a narcissist, not a healthy, normal, albeight unenlightened ego.

It is important IMO, to make a distinction between the ego, which is a good thing to have and develop in order to function socially, and a dysfunction like egotism, or narcissism. There is a marked difference between these.

One can be healthy, the other not. Self-centeredness is normal in early childhood, and should be there as it helps to develop self-identity which we all need in order to be functional. The other is when that doesn't happen, isn't allowed to happen, and become stuck developmentally at an earlier stage, before a healthy ego can be formed: Loevinger's stages of ego development - Wikipedia

Spiritual ego is when the normal ego decides it can "feel good about oneself" by taking ownership of spirituality as something it "accomplished". "I'm spiritual, so I'm not a bad person. I'm a good person." That is a subtle pride of ownership, rather than humility. It's the ego trying to find a last home to take up residence before it is overcome. "I'm a god, all worship me for I am better than you," is narcissism, which then uses the spiritual as divine justification for this dysfunctional ego.

 

[stvdv]

Can we overcome religious fanaticism?

Religious fanaticism is an ego thing. If "we" can let go of the ego then "we" can overcome this. Tricky though "ego letting go of ego".
So we need to stop identifying with "ego", only then it's possible to let go religious fanaticism IMO. Arrogance is hard to cure.

It is important IMO, to make a distinction between the ego, which is a good thing to have and develop in order to function socially, and a dysfunction like egotism

Hence I said "We need to stop identifying with `ego`"

 

[BilliardsBall]

That seems narcissistically delusional to me.

IYO, were more Catholic Christian fanatics or Protestant Christian fanatics needed in Ireland during "The Troubles"?

Then I suggest you test what seems like truth to you.

If everyone was a True Christian™ we wouldn't need locks on homes, bicycles or cars!

Catholics and Protestants killing each other, when their Lord commanded "Put down the sword! He who lives by the sword, dies by it!" and "Blessed are the peacemakers!" would make Jesus Christ say they aren't True Christians™.

 

[Windwalker]

Hence I said "We need to stop identifying with `ego`"

But identifying with the ego, is not narcissism. Identifying with the ego does not lead to fantanticsm. If it did, 99.995% of the world's population would be fanatics, which they are not.

That number of fanatics is probably somewhere less than 10-15% of the world's population, probably more like 5%, if that. Does this mean the rest of us have all stopped identifying with the ego, that 95% of the world is Enlightened? I wish that were the case!

 

[Windwalker]

More fanatics are needed, particularly if they are sharing the Christian, saving gospel.

So you are saying that a true Christian is a fanatic? God help us all!

P.S. A fantactic is unable to have empathy with another. So they can't help anyone, only impose their own will upon others, which is not the way of Jesus.

 

[stvdv]

But identifying with the ego, is not narcissism

Hence I linked it with arrogance in the end

You really try hard to find fault with my lines

Wonder why you do this

 

[Windwalker]

Hence I linked it with arrogance in the end

Do you agree then that there is a healthy ego, which does not include arrogance?

 

[stvdv]

Do you agree then that there is a healthy ego, which does not include arrogance?

I was only speaking about religious fanatacism, just replying to the OP

Speaking about healthy ego is something totally different from arrogance, that should be obvious

When you are hungry you eat, when you are thirsty you drink, when you are sleepy you sleep. Nothing wrong with that

 

[Gulo]

Do you agree then that there is a healthy ego, which does not include arrogance?

There is a fine line between confidence and arrogance. It is easy to stray into over-confidence when being misled by others.