Why learn about other faiths?

[CG Didymus]

Look, I don't want to totally dis Baha'i and Islam, because think one can be a part of both of those religions and grow closer to God and learn to walk in his ways. But I do have a bone to pick about the Ishmael thing. ""two religions are much more recent. They basically came along LATER, changed things, and then have the audacity to say, "We're right and you are wrong." If any version of the story has more authenticity, it's going to be the earlier version, the Isaac version. That only makes scholarly sense. But whatever. So long as they treat others well, I don't want to make a big fuss.

Thanks, that's an awesome answer. I just think it's sad that the Baha'is believe that. It seems to me that the only reason would be that it makes the connection between Arabs and Persians closer and more important to Abraham. The story of Judaism and Christianity follow Isaac and the generations that came from him. I can't imagine how many changes would have had to be made if it were indeed Ishmael.

 

[Dragonslayer]

The fact that Christians worship Jesus as God is the most alarming thing about your theology for us Jews. Historically it was around the time of Nicea, when Trinitarianism was ironed out and Jesus was officially declared God as dogma, that Jews began to be accused and punished for "Deicide" (God murderers). It was in this age that you had the rise of the Great Anti-Semite Chrysostom and the proliferation of the charge of Christ-Killer levied against all Jews. It has therefore been a topic of extreme interest to me, and i have read several book of both history and theology about the matter trying to figure what the heck is going on. I would say I have as good an understanding of Trinitarianism as anyone CAN have, but it just butts up against my Jewish sense that God is ECHAD, a pure uncompromised oneness.

BTW, Triniatiranism is extremely similar to what they have in Hinduism as well.



Ah yes. The old "Jewish eyes are veiled by God to the truth." You have no idea how insulting that is, how patronizing it is, to removing our moral freedom and responsibility. But I understand your motivation. It really gets your goat that you inherited a Jewish framework, a Jewish "messiah", Jewish apostles, Jewish sacred texts, and worship the God of the Jews, who set Jews apart as a priestly people, and those very people consider your religious faith completely irrelevant. You are kind of forced out of desperation to come up with an explanation, no matter how far fetched. And at any rate, it kind of gives us a get out of hell free card, since it's supposedly God himself who is at fault for our failure to pass the Jesus test.


Excuse me but I don't worship a false god. I don't worship Baal or Zeus or mother earth. I worship the God of my fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Did Abraham worship a false God?


That's not the Christianity I know of. The Christianity I'm familiar with says some will be thrown into the lake of fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. IOW, some go to heaven, and some go to hell. And as much as I don't care for the idea of eternal torment (in Judaism hell is temporary) neither can I match up the idea of a just God and just letting Hitler off Scot free to frolic in heaven.

I would like to correct you on the first point you made about the Nicean creed, as a Christian my only authority is the Bible. We believe that the Bible is God's inerrant, infallible, eternal and living Word so we don't believe anything or anyone who contradicts or adds or takes away anything from Gods Word and the completed canon of Scripture.

We believe that God miraculously preserved His Word for us to have and instruct as and reveal the truth of Gods Word to His chosen (elect) people. The Word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing and only those who have Gods Holy Spirit indwelling them will be able to receive His Word and understand it in it's intended context. Those who are not of His elect will not be able to rightly decipher His Word, they will all misinterpret His Word and end up with a false view.

True believers (Christians) are separate from the world, our worst enemy is the roman Catholic Church because it has executed well over 50 million Christian saints. The RCC made it illegal to posses a Bible because it exposes their false religion, so they executed all those who followed Jesus instead of following the pope.

True believers have always been persecuted and executed for their faith in Christ, it's still happening on a wide scale today but the media doesn't report it because it's controlled by the enemies of Christ.

The Bible has recorded Jesus claiming that He is One with the Father, He said that he would send the Holy Spirit to comfort us after He goes back to heaven. He gave His Holy Spirit to His Disciples and He promised to give it to everyone who believes in Him. Christ claimed to be the creator of all things, and He said that without Him nothing was made that was made.

The Bible is very clear that God exists in three persons, I know that many people have a problem with that but we believe the Bible is Gods Word and god is all mighty so nothing happens unless He preordains it so the Bible was meant to survive all the attempts to destroy it down the centuries by all the enemies of God. It's a miracle that the Bible survived all of those attempts but God is the God of miracles and nothing happens unless He allows it.

Gods Word tells us that God chose a specific number of people to save, before He made the world. Every single person who's name is written in the book of life will be saved. God cannot fail to accomplish anything He sets out to do so we have the full assurance of our salvation. We will inherit eternal paradise and all the riches of heaven will be given to us and we will receive super powers.

I would encourage you to trust in Christ, He is the only way to the Father. He said, "no man comes to the father but by Me". I know that this goes against your religion, but Christ is God come in the flesh and He is the Lord of the Sabbath and He fulfilled the whole of the law on our behalf because no man could.

Please understand that we love the Jewish people, true believers all love the Jewish people because you are Gods chosen people. God has not broken His covenant with you, He is chastising you because He loves you. He chastised all of His beloved, we know that all of His beloved elect people have suffered persecution and execution from the begging. We know that all of the disciples of Christ bar one were executed for their faith in Him.

God has always chastised the Jewish people and His Christian Saints, because we were all born into sin so He needs to purge us to refine us just as gold is refined by fire. The Bible says that every loving father chastises his son, and those who are not chastised are ********.

We should rejoice when we are persecuted for His sake, because the gift of eternal life in paradise is infinitely more valuable than this short life. Christ said, "what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul". He said we would be persecuted and executed for His names sake, He said the world hated Him before it hated us.

We should be glad that we were chosen to inherit eternal paradise, lets put our current differences aside for now and look to the future and praise God for the amazing love and grace He has extended to us sinners. I respect you because I know how hard it is for you to keep all of the laws. I believe you have to obey over 600 laws so I do appreciate your faithfulness and efforts to abide by those laws. I would encourage you to consider that fact that Christ kept the law perfectly and He has offered to impute His righteousness on anyone who wold trust and obey Him.

All you need to do is trust and obey Christ and you will be saved, He knows your weakness so He has done everything necessary to provide salvation for you. None of us can keep the law perfectly, we will all fall short so Christ is the only way to salvation because He kept it perfectly for us and He gives us salvation as a gift.

I hope you would at least put Christ to the test and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Just pray and ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He most certain ly will. he promised to never turn anyone away who truly asks Him.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would like to correct you on the first point you made about the Nicean creed, as a Christian my only authority is the Bible.

In my experience, Bible churches tend to teach that the Nicene Creed is simply a summary of what is taught in the Bible, that it is a kind of profession of Biblical faith. There are those Bible churches, however, that are anti-intellectual, and don't have enough knowledge of church history to know what the Nicene Creed is or its significance.

True believers (Christians) are separate from the world, our worst enemy is the roman Catholic Church

That may be the position of your particular denomination, but trust me it is not held by most Christian groups, including other Bible churches.

True believers have always been persecuted and executed for their faith in Christ, it's still happening on a wide scale today but the media doesn't report it because it's controlled by the enemies of Christ.

Actually, I have google news configured to receive news about Religion, and am well informed by the media that at present the Christian religion is the most persecuted in the world, just as Jews are the most persecuted ethnicity.
"

I would encourage you to trust in Christ, He is the only way to the Father. He said, "no man comes to the father but by Me". I know that this goes against your religion, but Christ is God come in the flesh and He is the Lord of the Sabbath and He fulfilled the whole of the law on our behalf because no man could.

You are right that this goes against my religion. But that's not all.
I am personally not interested. I have a personal relationship with God through prayer and the study of the Torah and I experience God as Echad -- ONE.

Furthermore, I am not unsatisfied with my religion in any way. I don't just have a knowledge of what God expect of me. I also know that God is Avinu Malkenu, our Father and our King. He says to me, ""I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness." He accepts me just as I am but calls me to something higher, hence the Torah. When I stumble, he is merciful and forgiving, casting my sins into the sea when I repent, requiring of me only a broken heart and contrite spirit. I have a community that supports me in this: a community that builds me up ethically, a community that prays with me and worships along with me and serves our God as one people. Who could ask for anything more? Baruch Hashem!

All you need to do is trust and obey Christ and you will be saved

The Lord God is my Savior. I need no other.

 

[Dragonslayer]

In my experience, Bible churches tend to teach that the Nicene Creed is simply a summary of what is taught in the Bible, that it is a kind of profession of Biblical faith. There are those Bible churches, however, that are anti-intellectual, and don't have enough knowledge of church history to know what the Nicene Creed is or its significance.

That may be the position of your particular denomination, but trust me it is not held by most Christian groups, including other Bible churches.

Actually, I have google news configured to receive news about Religion, and am well informed by the media that at present the Christian religion is the most persecuted in the world, just as Jews are the most persecuted ethnicity.
"

You are right that this goes against my religion. But that's not all.
I am personally not interested. I have a personal relationship with God through prayer and the study of the Torah and I experience God as Echad -- ONE.

Furthermore, I am not unsatisfied with my religion in any way. I don't just have a knowledge of what God expect of me. I also know that God is Avinu Malkenu, our Father and our King. He says to me, ""I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness." He accepts me just as I am but calls me to something higher, hence the Torah. When I stumble, he is merciful and forgiving, casting my sins into the sea when I repent, requiring of me only a broken heart and contrite spirit. I have a community that supports me in this: a community that builds me up ethically, a community that prays with me and worships along with me and serves our God as one people. Who could ask for anything more? Baruch Hashem!

The Lord God is my Savior. I need no other.

Your reply is exactly what I expected you to say, I could have written it myself. I did point out that the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually states that your people wouldn't receive Him or believe in Him until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

We believe in the Old Testament just as you do, there is no difference at all with your interpretation and ours we believe it exactly as you do. The only difference is we have the New Testament, where we believe that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah who is God come into the world as a person to make a once and for all sacrifice to atone for every sin of every chosen person who ever lived and those who are to come.

Christ is the perfect, sinless, spotless Lamb who accomplished salvation for all of Gods chosen people in every age. Christ said " I came to my own and my own did not receive Me", so He went to the Gentiles and added them to His chosen people and He said that His own will join His Church after the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

So what you said makes perfect sense, it proves what Jesus said is true. I know your people have suffered more than any other people, but remember God chastens His Children. He said that a Child who is not chastened is a *******, so your suffering is not in vein. God has not forgotten His covenant with His Chosen people the Jews. You will always be His be His beloved Children and He will bless you with eternal happiness and joy in His paradise and give you His Kingdom.

You have every reason to rejoice, because you will be victorious and you will conquer the whole world. Nobody can come against you and prevail against you while the Lord is on your side, every true Christian considers you his true brother and we will fight our common enemy together and we will conquer this world and inherit Gods Kingdom together.

Everyone will see Christ in the sky when He returns soon, you will believe in Him when he returns tom fight the greatest battle in human history. He will destroy the enemies of the Jewish people and the Christian people and He will cast them all into hell where they will be tormented forever.

You will believe in Him when He returns, everyone who ever lived will be raised from the graves and stand before Him to be judged. This might sound far fetched but we are talking about an almighty God who spoke everything into existence and He promised this so we can be sure it will come to pass.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

We believe in the Old Testament just as you do, there is no difference at all with your interpretation and ours we believe it exactly as you do. The only difference is we have the New Testament, where we believe that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah who is God come into the world as a person to make a once and for all sacrifice to atone for every sin of every chosen person who ever lived and those who are to come.

First, let me thank you for such a friendly post. While it kind of goes overboard on the proselyt5izing, I don't hold that against you -- I realize that Christians have a need to share their faith. Please don't be disappointed that it basically goes in one ear and out the other. I am completely satisfied with my own faith -- I fail to see how Christianity can possibly improve on it in any way. But to get back to the point, I appreciate the positivity of your post.

Now as to your point above, we may share the Tanakh, but not in the same way at all. It is as though we read it with different glasses, our interprettions are so different.

To start with, Christians do not even translate the same. Jews strictly use the Hebrew manuscript called the Masoretic text. Hebrew is the original language of the documents. Christians use both the Hebrew and the Greek, or "Septuagint." In fact, Christians favor the Greek text, even though it is a translation and therefore not as accurate, because the Greek New Testament quote from the Septuagint. The result is that there are many inaccuracies in the Christian translations.

The next important difference is the order in which we place the books. Christians end the Tanakh with the prophet Malachi, who prophecies about the messianic age. For the Christian, this is the natural prelude to the Gospels. The Jewish Tanakh, however, ends with a book of history, Chronicles, speaking of the Jews returning to Zion after being released from Captivity and rebuilding the Temple. It is a moment of Triumph.

Thirdly, there is the problem with Christians creating messianic prophecies out of whole cloth. For Jews, messianic prophecies are quite clear -- they do not talk about anything other than the messianic age and/or the messiah. But Christians wrongly take text which talk about perfectly ordinary non-prophetic events, and declare the verses to be prophecies. It's maddening.

Fourth, there is the issue of salvation. Christians have a completely different notion of salvation. Throughout the Tanakh, God is called the Savior, but he saves us from our enemies, i.e. from slavery in Egypt. Christians, however, have a notion of being saved from sins to eternal life, and they superimpose this wrongly everry time they see the word salvation in the Tanakh.

Finally, there is the disparagement of the Law by Christians. I honestly don't know how you manage it, given that God said the covenant is eternal, and Jesus said not even a brushstroke would pass away from the Law so long as there was heaven and earth. But you do -- you consider the Law a curse. For us it is a blessing. It tells us Hashem's will, brings us closer to it, creates a better society, makes us healthier and happier... You should read Psalm 19, and all that it says about thee Law being perfect, good, righteous, sweet...

So you see, we might as well be reading different texts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your reply is exactly what I expected you to say, I could have written it myself. I did point out that the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually states that your people wouldn't receive Him or believe in Him until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

The time of the Gentiles was fulfilled in 1844.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

“The meaning of the term ‘times of the Gentiles’ was familiar and clear to Scriptural scholars. I learned that it denoted that period of time during which Jerusalem would be held in the power of aliens, non-Jews (or Gentiles), and during which the Jews themselves would be excluded from their homeland.

In plain words, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.” http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf​

The Edict of Toleration was signed in 1844, the exact year of the proclamation of the Baha’i Faith.

Edict of Toleration 1844
The Declaration of The Bab-How Religion Begins

We believe in the Old Testament just as you do, there is no difference at all with your interpretation and ours we believe it exactly as you do. The only difference is we have the New Testament, where we believe that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah who is God come into the world as a person to make a once and for all sacrifice to atone for every sin of every chosen person who ever lived and those who are to come.

But Jesus Christ was not the Messiah promised in the Old Testament and that is why the Jews did/do not believe in Him. Jesus did not fulfill prophecies such as the following, to name just a few:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

You have every reason to rejoice, because you will be victorious and you will conquer the whole world. Nobody can come against you and prevail against you while the Lord is on your side, every true Christian considers you his true brother and we will fight our common enemy together and we will conquer this world and inherit Gods Kingdom together.

Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus was not the Lord. Baha’u’llah was the Lord of Hosts. God has spoken again through Baha’u’llah. This is the Day of God.

“Rejoice with exceeding gladness, O people of Bahá, as ye call to remembrance the Day of supreme felicity, the Day whereon the Tongue of the Ancient of Days hath spoken, as He departed from His House, proceeding to the Spot from which He shed upon the whole of creation the splendors of His name, the All-Merciful. God is Our witness. Were We to reveal the hidden secrets of that Day, all they that dwell on earth and in the heavens would swoon away and die, except such as will be preserved by God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 35​

Everyone will see Christ in the sky when He returns soon, you will believe in Him when he returns tom fight the greatest battle in human history. He will destroy the enemies of the Jewish people and the Christian people and He will cast them all into hell where they will be tormented forever.

The prophecies have all been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
​

Jesus never promised to return, not once. Show me one verse where Jesus said He was going to return. There is not one. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

Christians have had a hope that Jesus was going to return, but it is not in the Bible, not anywhere. I already explained this in another post #523.

Christ is not coming in the sky. The Spirit of Christ already returned in Baha’u’llah, just as Jesus promised. You and all the other Christians are waiting for something that is never going to happen. I find that rather sad, but it is not as if the Revelation of Baha’u’llah has been kept secret.

“At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, Tablet of the Seven Questions, pp. 62- 63​

You will believe in Him when He returns, everyone who ever lived will be raised from the graves and stand before Him to be judged. This might sound far fetched but we are talking about an almighty God who spoke everything into existence and He promised this so we can be sure it will come to pass.

Jesus never promised that anyone would rise from physical graves. Christians believed that because of the way they interpreted 1 Cor 15. The graves people will rise from are not physical graves. They are spiritual graves, graves of spiritual ignorance.

The following verses are referring to coming forth from graves of spiritual ignorance and rising to spiritual life, not arising from physical graves to physical life. Jesus was the resurrection to spiritual life and anyone that believed in Jesus had eternal life, which is a quality of life, being close to God in this life and in the afterlife. Resurrection does not refer to the physical body rising from the grave.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”​

Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus about spiritual life and spiritual death. History repeats itself. In this new Day of God, Baha’u’llah is the resurrection to spiritual life. Those who believe in Baha’u’llah are re-born and shall have eternal life.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

Those who recognized Baha’u’llah rose from their graves of spiritual ignorance. Those who have rejected Baha’u’llah are lost in bewilderment.

“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42​

 

[Dragonslayer]

First, let me thank you for such a friendly post. While it kind of goes overboard on the proselyt5izing, I don't hold that against you -- I realize that Christians have a need to share their faith. Please don't be disappointed that it basically goes in one ear and out the other. I am completely satisfied with my own faith -- I fail to see how Christianity can possibly improve on it in any way. But to get back to the point, I appreciate the positivity of your post.

Now as to your point above, we may share the Tanakh, but not in the same way at all. It is as though we read it with different glasses, our interprettions are so different.

To start with, Christians do not even translate the same. Jews strictly use the Hebrew manuscript called the Masoretic text. Hebrew is the original language of the documents. Christians use both the Hebrew and the Greek, or "Septuagint." In fact, Christians favor the Greek text, even though it is a translation and therefore not as accurate, because the Greek New Testament quote from the Septuagint. The result is that there are many inaccuracies in the Christian translations.

The next important difference is the order in which we place the books. Christians end the Tanakh with the prophet Malachi, who prophecies about the messianic age. For the Christian, this is the natural prelude to the Gospels. The Jewish Tanakh, however, ends with a book of history, Chronicles, speaking of the Jews returning to Zion after being released from Captivity and rebuilding the Temple. It is a moment of Triumph.

Thirdly, there is the problem with Christians creating messianic prophecies out of whole cloth. For Jews, messianic prophecies are quite clear -- they do not talk about anything other than the messianic age and/or the messiah. But Christians wrongly take text which talk about perfectly ordinary non-prophetic events, and declare the verses to be prophecies. It's maddening.

Fourth, there is the issue of salvation. Christians have a completely different notion of salvation. Throughout the Tanakh, God is called the Savior, but he saves us from our enemies, i.e. from slavery in Egypt. Christians, however, have a notion of being saved from sins to eternal life, and they superimpose this wrongly everry time they see the word salvation in the Tanakh.

Finally, there is the disparagement of the Law by Christians. I honestly don't know how you manage it, given that God said the covenant is eternal, and Jesus said not even a brushstroke would pass away from the Law so long as there was heaven and earth. But you do -- you consider the Law a curse. For us it is a blessing. It tells us Hashem's will, brings us closer to it, creates a better society, makes us healthier and happier... You should read Psalm 19, and all that it says about thee Law being perfect, good, righteous, sweet...

So you see, we might as well be reading different texts.

I will get back to you asap, I'm going to have a close look at those scriptures you quoted. I'll reply after I get a chance to study them in depth so I can give you an educated response.

Best regards, Dan

 

[Dragonslayer]

The time of the Gentiles was fulfilled in 1844.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

“The meaning of the term ‘times of the Gentiles’ was familiar and clear to Scriptural scholars. I learned that it denoted that period of time during which Jerusalem would be held in the power of aliens, non-Jews (or Gentiles), and during which the Jews themselves would be excluded from their homeland.

In plain words, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.” http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf​

The Edict of Toleration was signed in 1844, the exact year of the proclamation of the Baha’i Faith.

Edict of Toleration 1844
The Declaration of The Bab-How Religion Begins

But Jesus Christ was not the Messiah promised in the Old Testament and that is why the Jews did/do not believe in Him. Jesus did not fulfill prophecies such as the following, to name just a few:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.​

Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus was not the Lord. Baha’u’llah was the Lord of Hosts. God has spoken again through Baha’u’llah. This is the Day of God.

“Rejoice with exceeding gladness, O people of Bahá, as ye call to remembrance the Day of supreme felicity, the Day whereon the Tongue of the Ancient of Days hath spoken, as He departed from His House, proceeding to the Spot from which He shed upon the whole of creation the splendors of His name, the All-Merciful. God is Our witness. Were We to reveal the hidden secrets of that Day, all they that dwell on earth and in the heavens would swoon away and die, except such as will be preserved by God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 35​

The prophecies have all been fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
​

Jesus never promised to return, not once. Show me one verse where Jesus said He was going to return. There is not one. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.​

Christians have had a hope that Jesus was going to return, but it is not in the Bible, not anywhere. I already explained this in another post #523.

Christ is not coming in the sky. The Spirit of Christ already returned in Baha’u’llah, just as Jesus promised. You and all the other Christians are waiting for something that is never going to happen. I find that rather sad, but it is not as if the Revelation of Baha’u’llah has been kept secret.

“At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, Tablet of the Seven Questions, pp. 62- 63​

Jesus never promised that anyone would rise from physical graves. Christians believed that because of the way they interpreted 1 Cor 15. The graves people will rise from are not physical graves. They are spiritual graves, graves of spiritual ignorance.

The following verses are referring to coming forth from graves of spiritual ignorance and rising to spiritual life, not arising from physical graves to physical life. Jesus was the resurrection to spiritual life and anyone that believed in Jesus had eternal life, which is a quality of life, being close to God in this life and in the afterlife. Resurrection does not refer to the physical body rising from the grave.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”​

Baha’u’llah concurs with Jesus about spiritual life and spiritual death. History repeats itself. In this new Day of God, Baha’u’llah is the resurrection to spiritual life. Those who believe in Baha’u’llah are re-born and shall have eternal life.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

Those who recognized Baha’u’llah rose from their graves of spiritual ignorance. Those who have rejected Baha’u’llah are lost in bewilderment.

“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, and the people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42​

Thank you for making the effort to explain your belief in Baha'u'llah's gospel but that's another gospel. It's not the same as the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I notice you have a different interpretation to the one which I believe. My Church teaches the Gospel just as it is, we don't add our own private views or interpretation to it.

The Bible interprets the Bible, it's Gods perfect, inerrant and infallible Word from Genesis to Revelation. There are no contradiction or any errors, ever prophecy is 100% accurate and every Word is 100% true from cover to cover.

I notice you don't believe what the Bible says about being resurrected to our physical bodies while the Bible clearly teaches that we will be reunited with our bodies and they will be immortal so they will never burn up in hell but the flames and heat will be real so the pain will be real.

Jesus is in heaven at this very moment in the same physical body He left the earth in, so we will be resurrected back into our bodies but they will be eternal immortal bodies which cannot be killed by any means. All of those who are going to be cast into hell will wish they could cease existing but it will be impossible to cease existing or escaping.

There is only One truth and only One way to understand the Bible, and that is by the Holy Spirit, Only those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can understand the Bible. The rest will never understand the truth of Gods Word, they will get it wrong every single time.

 

[Dragonslayer]

First, let me thank you for such a friendly post. While it kind of goes overboard on the proselyt5izing, I don't hold that against you -- I realize that Christians have a need to share their faith. Please don't be disappointed that it basically goes in one ear and out the other. I am completely satisfied with my own faith -- I fail to see how Christianity can possibly improve on it in any way. But to get back to the point, I appreciate the positivity of your post.

Now as to your point above, we may share the Tanakh, but not in the same way at all. It is as though we read it with different glasses, our interprettions are so different.

To start with, Christians do not even translate the same. Jews strictly use the Hebrew manuscript called the Masoretic text. Hebrew is the original language of the documents. Christians use both the Hebrew and the Greek, or "Septuagint." In fact, Christians favor the Greek text, even though it is a translation and therefore not as accurate, because the Greek New Testament quote from the Septuagint. The result is that there are many inaccuracies in the Christian translations.

The next important difference is the order in which we place the books. Christians end the Tanakh with the prophet Malachi, who prophecies about the messianic age. For the Christian, this is the natural prelude to the Gospels. The Jewish Tanakh, however, ends with a book of history, Chronicles, speaking of the Jews returning to Zion after being released from Captivity and rebuilding the Temple. It is a moment of Triumph.

Thirdly, there is the problem with Christians creating messianic prophecies out of whole cloth. For Jews, messianic prophecies are quite clear -- they do not talk about anything other than the messianic age and/or the messiah. But Christians wrongly take text which talk about perfectly ordinary non-prophetic events, and declare the verses to be prophecies. It's maddening.

Fourth, there is the issue of salvation. Christians have a completely different notion of salvation. Throughout the Tanakh, God is called the Savior, but he saves us from our enemies, i.e. from slavery in Egypt. Christians, however, have a notion of being saved from sins to eternal life, and they superimpose this wrongly everry time they see the word salvation in the Tanakh.

Finally, there is the disparagement of the Law by Christians. I honestly don't know how you manage it, given that God said the covenant is eternal, and Jesus said not even a brushstroke would pass away from the Law so long as there was heaven and earth. But you do -- you consider the Law a curse. For us it is a blessing. It tells us Hashem's will, brings us closer to it, creates a better society, makes us healthier and happier... You should read Psalm 19, and all that it says about thee Law being perfect, good, righteous, sweet...

So you see, we might as well be reading different texts.

I would refer you to Isaiah 53 which perfectly describes Jesus Christ as the coming Messiah. Nobody else fits the description given in Isaiah 53 but Jesus Christ Himself.

Please try to find some time to have a look at Dr. Michael Brown's work, he was a Jew himself. He answers many question which Jewish people ask about Christianity. I'm not a scholar and my knowledge of scripture is quite limited, but as a Christian I don't need to be a Bible scholar. The only requirement for a true Christian is to believe in Christ as our personal savior.

The Gospel is clear that God must open the spiritual eyes of a person before they can receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So I will never convince you by debating you, the only way you will ever believe the Gospel is when God reveals it to you directly. The Gospel is foolishness to everyone, until God opens their spiritual eyes so all I can do is pray for you and everyone else I come into contact with.

I'm 100% certain that God will unite the Jews and Christians into One body of believers, we will inherit the kingdom of God as His people together. Gods people are One in Spirit, God gives His Holy Spirit to all those He has chosen to save. The Jews will always be Gods first love so they will always have a special place in His Heart but He chose to save some Gentiles as well to show His grace and mercy to undeserving sinners.

I look forward to the day when we all unite in Gods Spirit and dwell in joy and happiness forever. That day is coming quickly and the gate of hell shall not prevail against us.

 

[Dragonslayer]

First, let me thank you for such a friendly post. While it kind of goes overboard on the proselyt5izing, I don't hold that against you -- I realize that Christians have a need to share their faith. Please don't be disappointed that it basically goes in one ear and out the other. I am completely satisfied with my own faith -- I fail to see how Christianity can possibly improve on it in any way. But to get back to the point, I appreciate the positivity of your post.

Now as to your point above, we may share the Tanakh, but not in the same way at all. It is as though we read it with different glasses, our interprettions are so different.

To start with, Christians do not even translate the same. Jews strictly use the Hebrew manuscript called the Masoretic text. Hebrew is the original language of the documents. Christians use both the Hebrew and the Greek, or "Septuagint." In fact, Christians favor the Greek text, even though it is a translation and therefore not as accurate, because the Greek New Testament quote from the Septuagint. The result is that there are many inaccuracies in the Christian translations.

The next important difference is the order in which we place the books. Christians end the Tanakh with the prophet Malachi, who prophecies about the messianic age. For the Christian, this is the natural prelude to the Gospels. The Jewish Tanakh, however, ends with a book of history, Chronicles, speaking of the Jews returning to Zion after being released from Captivity and rebuilding the Temple. It is a moment of Triumph.

Thirdly, there is the problem with Christians creating messianic prophecies out of whole cloth. For Jews, messianic prophecies are quite clear -- they do not talk about anything other than the messianic age and/or the messiah. But Christians wrongly take text which talk about perfectly ordinary non-prophetic events, and declare the verses to be prophecies. It's maddening.

Fourth, there is the issue of salvation. Christians have a completely different notion of salvation. Throughout the Tanakh, God is called the Savior, but he saves us from our enemies, i.e. from slavery in Egypt. Christians, however, have a notion of being saved from sins to eternal life, and they superimpose this wrongly everry time they see the word salvation in the Tanakh.

Finally, there is the disparagement of the Law by Christians. I honestly don't know how you manage it, given that God said the covenant is eternal, and Jesus said not even a brushstroke would pass away from the Law so long as there was heaven and earth. But you do -- you consider the Law a curse. For us it is a blessing. It tells us Hashem's will, brings us closer to it, creates a better society, makes us healthier and happier... You should read Psalm 19, and all that it says about thee Law being perfect, good, righteous, sweet...

So you see, we might as well be reading different texts.

Please see these two as well, I would love to hear your reaction to these.

Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 1)

https://avidano.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/answeringjewishobjections-drbrown.pdf

 

[Trailblazer]

Thank you for making the effort to explain your belief in Baha'u'llah's gospel but that's another gospel. It's not the same as the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. I notice you have a different interpretation to the one which I believe. My Church teaches the Gospel just as it is, we don't add our own private views or interpretation to it.

There is only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Baha’u’llah did not have a gospel; He received a “new” Revelation from God. Of course it is not the same as what is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If it was the same there would be no need for a new Revelation from God. However, some of it is very similar because the spiritual verities are eternal and they never change. Every new revelation from God always refreshes and renews these spiritual verities because people forget them over time. However, the Words of Jesus will never pass away, they are eternal (Mathew 24:35).

For example, Baha’u’llah said something very similar to what Jesus said. The words are different but the meaning is the same.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261​

There is no such thing as “the Gospel just as it is” because all words in the Gospel require human interpretation in order to have any meaning. In short, we assign meanings as we read and different people (and different Churches) assign different meanings. That is why there are so many different Churches. What your Church has assigned as the meaning of the Gospel message is what you have chosen to believe but it is just one interpretation among many.

The Bible interprets the Bible, it's Gods perfect, inerrant and infallible Word from Genesis to Revelation. There are no contradiction or any errors, ever prophecy is 100% accurate and every Word is 100% true from cover to cover.

That is illogical and impossible. The Bible is just a Book, words on a page. It cannot interpret itself. It requires human interpretation. It can be true that prophecy is 100% accurate but it cannot be true that everyone knows what those prophecies mean, since people disagree about what they mean. Why do you think you know and others do not know? Can you prove that the Holy Spirit is guiding you to the truth? Other Christians believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them to the truth but they do not believe what you believe, so how do you explain that? Why are they wrong whereas you are right?

I notice you don't believe what the Bible says about being resurrected to our physical bodies while the Bible clearly teaches that we will be reunited with our bodies and they will be immortal so they will never burn up in hell but the flames and heat will be real so the pain will be real.

The Bible does not teach that. The Church teaches that so you believe that is what the Bible means. Nowhere does the Bible say “you will be resurrected to physical bodies and they will be immortal.” That is an interpretation of words you read on a page. Moreover, it is against the laws of physics for a body to rise from the grave. A body once dead remains dead. You will get a body that is “like” the body you had in this world but it will not be physical. Physical bodies can only exist in the physical world. Heaven is not a physical world, it is a spiritual world so physical bodies cannot exist in heaven.

Since you are a Christian, you might be interested in this book written by a Christian, entitled Heaven and Hell, by Emanuel Swedenborg. What he wrote is congruent with what Baha’u’llah revealed about life after death although his book is much more detailed. Because the book was written in 1758 he was not privy to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. What he was going on was the Bible and psychic experiences he had. He explains what heaven and hell are and how we get there. It makes perfect sense.

I plan to post a thread about this when I have time. In short, he says that all the people who are in the Hells are absorbed in evils and consequent falsities because of their love for themselves and the world. They might have known about spiritual truths and carefully refrained from doing the evil things they were thinking of, but in the afterlife their outer layers are stripped off and the inner natures that constituted their spirits are unveiled; so if they were wholly absorbed in evil and false concerns and unconcerned with anything true and good there is no way to hide that as people can do here by putting on false pretenses or even fooling themselves. They will be whoever they became by virtue of their own choices and actions. Actions can be the same in two people but the intent is what is important. Was the action motivated for selfish reasons or for the good of others and service to God?

People can fool themselves but they cannot fool God. God does not cast people into hell. People sink to hell by the weight of their own spiritual gravity because people will no longer be able to fool themselves in the afterlife. They will be whoever they have become here. Belief in the Manifestation of God is important but what they believed is not a guarantee of heaven. The author of this book backs up his writings with verses from the Bible and particularly with verses from the Gospels.

Jesus is in heaven at this very moment in the same physical body He left the earth in, so we will be resurrected back into our bodies but they will be eternal immortal bodies which cannot be killed by any means. All of those who are going to be cast into hell will wish they could cease existing but it will be impossible to cease existing or escaping.

There is no oxygen in heaven so Jesus cannot have a physical body in heaven. Jesus is in heaven and He has a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194​

Everyone who ever dies will get a spiritual body, one that reflects its worthiness, according it faith and deeds and nearness to God. We cannot know what that world beyond will be like because it is so different from this world.

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157​

There is only One truth and only One way to understand the Bible, and that is by the Holy Spirit, Only those who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them can understand the Bible. The rest will never understand the truth of Gods Word, they will get it wrong every single time.

The Bible can have many meanings and more than one meaning can be correct, but in some cases we know meanings people assign are not correct because they contradict revelations from God that came to us after the Bible, the Qur’an and the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. These are authentic scriptures but the Bible is not wholly authentic.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments​

Only a Manifestation of God who is the Representative of God on earth and His appointed interpreters can really know what the Bible means.

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endurethfor ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176​

The Manifestation of God has innate knowledge and knowledge revealed to Him by God when He received His revelation. No human being has any of that so no human being can know what He knows. A Manifestation of God is a God-man, a higher order of creation. Jesus was a Manifestation of God but He did not either write the Bible or interpret the Bible, so now all we had was fallible human beings who think they know what the Bible means. If anyone had ever really understood the Bible there would have been no need to hold councils such as Nicaea to settle upon what they believed the Bible meant. If the Bible had been easy to understand there would not be thousands of sects of Christianity that disagree about the nature of God and Jesus, heaven and hell, etc. This is logic 101 stuff. If one really wants to know the Truth, they have to use their own logic and reason and investigate the Truth, rather than just believing what their Church teaches.

 

[joelr]

I think God works in other faiths in preparing the world for and pointing to the Messiah in various ways

For example in China they put red around the doors to keep the dragon from coming and eating the firstborn by legend which is remarkably resonant with the Passover story

It also helps understanding people and it is good to respect people for living according to their best understanding of truth

The entire savior god story is remarkably resonant of earlier religions.

 

[Dragonslayer]

There is only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Baha’u’llah did not have a gospel; He received a “new” Revelation from God. Of course it is not the same as what is in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If it was the same there would be no need for a new Revelation from God. However, some of it is very similar because the spiritual verities are eternal and they never change. Every new revelation from God always refreshes and renews these spiritual verities because people forget them over time. However, the Words of Jesus will never pass away, they are eternal (Mathew 24:35).

For example, Baha’u’llah said something very similar to what Jesus said. The words are different but the meaning is the same.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261​

There is no such thing as “the Gospel just as it is” because all words in the Gospel require human interpretation in order to have any meaning. In short, we assign meanings as we read and different people (and different Churches) assign different meanings. That is why there are so many different Churches. What your Church has assigned as the meaning of the Gospel message is what you have chosen to believe but it is just one interpretation among many.

That is illogical and impossible. The Bible is just a Book, words on a page. It cannot interpret itself. It requires human interpretation. It can be true that prophecy is 100% accurate but it cannot be true that everyone knows what those prophecies mean, since people disagree about what they mean. Why do you think you know and others do not know? Can you prove that the Holy Spirit is guiding you to the truth? Other Christians believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them to the truth but they do not believe what you believe, so how do you explain that? Why are they wrong whereas you are right?

The Bible does not teach that. The Church teaches that so you believe that is what the Bible means. Nowhere does the Bible say “you will be resurrected to physical bodies and they will be immortal.” That is an interpretation of words you read on a page. Moreover, it is against the laws of physics for a body to rise from the grave. A body once dead remains dead. You will get a body that is “like” the body you had in this world but it will not be physical. Physical bodies can only exist in the physical world. Heaven is not a physical world, it is a spiritual world so physical bodies cannot exist in heaven.

Since you are a Christian, you might be interested in this book written by a Christian, entitled Heaven and Hell, by Emanuel Swedenborg. What he wrote is congruent with what Baha’u’llah revealed about life after death although his book is much more detailed. Because the book was written in 1758 he was not privy to the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. What he was going on was the Bible and psychic experiences he had. He explains what heaven and hell are and how we get there. It makes perfect sense.

I plan to post a thread about this when I have time. In short, he says that all the people who are in the Hells are absorbed in evils and consequent falsities because of their love for themselves and the world. They might have known about spiritual truths and carefully refrained from doing the evil things they were thinking of, but in the afterlife their outer layers are stripped off and the inner natures that constituted their spirits are unveiled; so if they were wholly absorbed in evil and false concerns and unconcerned with anything true and good there is no way to hide that as people can do here by putting on false pretenses or even fooling themselves. They will be whoever they became by virtue of their own choices and actions. Actions can be the same in two people but the intent is what is important. Was the action motivated for selfish reasons or for the good of others and service to God?

People can fool themselves but they cannot fool God. God does not cast people into hell. People sink to hell by the weight of their own spiritual gravity because people will no longer be able to fool themselves in the afterlife. They will be whoever they have become here. Belief in the Manifestation of God is important but what they believed is not a guarantee of heaven. The author of this book backs up his writings with verses from the Bible and particularly with verses from the Gospels.

There is no oxygen in heaven so Jesus cannot have a physical body in heaven. Jesus is in heaven and He has a spiritual body made up of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm.

All of my brothers from all around the world have interpreted the Bible in the exact same way as we do in our Church. We believe there is only one correct way to interpret the Bible. Every verse has to be supported by the rest of the Bible, it is one story about God. It's Gods Word and He is not the author of confusion.

We have found that every single one of our brethren down the millennia and centuries have all arrived at the same conclusion about the meaning of Scripture as we do in my Church today. So this proves to me that there is only One truth and One true way of understanding it.

We believe that we need our entire life span to unpack everything Jesus said and the Bible teaches, Christ also warned us to ignore and rebuke any future prophets or anyone who claims to have any new revelation from God. We believe the canon of scripture is complete and it was closed 2000 years ago with the book of revelation.

Our pastor warns us regularly, not to give any oxygen to anyone who claims to have any new revelation or anyone who claims that God spoke to them. We believe that God has said everything He wanted to say and there is nothing more to hear. His message has always been the same old message which is new and it applies to every generation up to now and all future generations will not receive any new communication from God.

We believe that those who claim to have extra Biblical revelation have been deceived and possessed by Demons. The Bible is Gods perfect Word, it speaks to every true believer. Gods Word is the most powerful thing in the world, it exposed and condemns false prophets and their followers to hell.

I would not be a true Saint of God if I invested any time to read the works of this "prophet" you mention. My God is jealous, He doesn't tolerate me giving any oxygen to false prophets. Our mission is to learn as much as we can about God as He described Himself in the Bible. One lifetime is not enough to learn everything about Him so that's why we are forbidden to waste time reading what fallen men write.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I have not studied Dao. Among the other faith, I learnt much from Buddhism and regard Buddha as one of my two gurus. Otherwise Hinduism is enough for me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I would refer you to Isaiah 53 which perfectly describes Jesus Christ as the coming Messiah. Nobody else fits the description given in Isaiah 53 but Jesus Christ Himself.

Please try to find some time to have a look at Dr. Michael Brown's work, he was a Jew himself. He answers many question which Jewish people ask about Christianity. I'm not a scholar and my knowledge of scripture is quite limited, but as a Christian I don't need to be a Bible scholar. The only requirement for a true Christian is to believe in Christ as our personal savior.

The Gospel is clear that God must open the spiritual eyes of a person before they can receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So I will never convince you by debating you, the only way you will ever believe the Gospel is when God reveals it to you directly. The Gospel is foolishness to everyone, until God opens their spiritual eyes so all I can do is pray for you and everyone else I come into contact with.

I'm 100% certain that God will unite the Jews and Christians into One body of believers, we will inherit the kingdom of God as His people together. Gods people are One in Spirit, God gives His Holy Spirit to all those He has chosen to save. The Jews will always be Gods first love so they will always have a special place in His Heart but He chose to save some Gentiles as well to show His grace and mercy to undeserving sinners.

I look forward to the day when we all unite in Gods Spirit and dwell in joy and happiness forever. That day is coming quickly and the gate of hell shall not prevail against us.

No offense, but I'm completely uninterested in watching an hour and a half video. I come in here because I like INTERACTING with other good people, such as yourself. If I wanted to surf the web, I could do that on my own.

I know that you are convinced of your faith, just as I am. We may have an enjoyable back and forth, but we will not be convincing one another. If you were a Jew, I would be trying to convince you in earnest, pulling out all the stops so to speak, since you would be bound to your covenant. But you are not, so it is perfectly fine for you to follow the Christian faith, despite its inaccuracies. And if you ever decide to search further, you know where to find us.

As my Christian friends and I fondly say to one another, when the Messiah comes, we will simply ask him if he has been here before. If he says yes, I will become a Christian. If he says no, my Christian friends will become Jewish Noahide!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please see these two as well, I would love to hear your reaction to these.

Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 1)

https://avidano.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/answeringjewishobjections-drbrown.pdf

As I said, I prefer to interact with you.

Giving websites in a forum is almost kind of "cheating." LOL It's a way of avoiding spelling out the answers ourselves. After all, I could always refer you to Tovia Singer and Jews for Judaism, but I think you'd rather I speak for myself. (Besides, I'm not really trying to convert you.)

 

[Trailblazer]

As my Christian friends and I fondly say to one another, when the Messiah comes, we will simply ask him if he has been here before. If he says yes, I will become a Christian. If he says no, my Christian friends will become Jewish Noahide!

I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything but what you said above caught my eye...

Baha'is believe that Jesus was "a Messiah" but not "the Messiah" that is promised in Jewish scriptures or the Old Testament. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit, the Comforter promised by Jesus, the Messiah that the Jews have been awaiting, and the Promised One of all the religions of the past.
Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

When Baha'u'llah came and announced His mission, He said He had been here before. Baha'is believe that all the Prophets/Messengers of God are the same Spirit of God returning throughout history in order to renew what the previous Prophets taught and bring a new message that is suitable and necessary for the current times. That is called Progressive Revelation.

Given that the "essence" of a Prophet is His Spirit, not His physical body, Baha'u'llah claimed that He was Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Likewise, Muhammad said He was Adam, Noah, Moses and Jesus.

.... So back to what you were saying... If the Messiah came and said He had been here before as Jesus, that Messiah would not be the same Jesus in the same body so He would not be coming to confirm Christianity. If the Messiah came and said that He confirmed the truth of the Torah, as Baha'u'llah did, that would not mean that He came to renew the Torah and confirm Judaism, as Jews believe. Rather, He would be coming to start a new religion, which would recognize the truth of all the religions of the past, since that are all valid and all reflect the Will of God throughout history.

Is that not what every Prophet/Messenger of God has done throughout history, start a new religion? Why then would it be any different when the Messiah comes? The Messiah is simply another Prophet/Messenger of God who comes to fulfill all the prophecies of past religions. That is the way Baha'is view it.

In the following passage, Manifestations of His Cause refers to the Prophets/Messengers of God. Divine Unity means they are all the same Spirit of God who appear in different human bodies at different times in history. Baha'is are disallowed from discriminating against any of the Prophets/Messengers of God, exalting any one over another.

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60​

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am certainly not trying to convince you of anything but what you said above caught my eye...

Baha'is believe that Jesus was "a Messiah" but not "the Messiah" that is promised in Jewish scriptures or the Old Testament. Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of the Christ Spirit, the Comforter promised by Jesus, the Messiah that the Jews have been awaiting, and the Promised One of all the religions of the past.
Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

When Baha'u'llah came and announced His mission, He said He had been here before. Baha'is believe that all the Prophets/Messengers of God are the same Spirit of God returning throughout history in order to renew what the previous Prophets taught and bring a new message that is suitable and necessary for the current times. That is called Progressive Revelation.

Given that the "essence" of a Prophet is His Spirit, not His physical body, Baha'u'llah claimed that He was Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Likewise, Muhammad said He was Adam, Noah, Moses and Jesus.

.... So back to what you were saying... If the Messiah came and said He had been here before as Jesus, that Messiah would not be the same Jesus in the same body so He would not be coming to confirm Christianity. If the Messiah came and said that He confirmed the truth of the Torah, as Baha'u'llah did, that would not mean that He came to renew the Torah and confirm Judaism, as Jews believe. Rather, He would be coming to start a new religion, which would recognize the truth of all the religions of the past, since that are all valid and all reflect the Will of God throughout history.

Is that not what every Prophet/Messenger of God has done throughout history, start a new religion? Why then would it be any different when the Messiah comes? The Messiah is simply another Prophet/Messenger of God who comes to fulfill all the prophecies of past religions. That is the way Baha'is view it.

In the following passage, Manifestations of His Cause refers to the Prophets/Messengers of God. Divine Unity means they are all the same Spirit of God who appear in different human bodies at different times in history. Baha'is are disallowed from discriminating against any of the Prophets/Messengers of God, exalting any one over another.

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60​

I admit I have not studied the Ba'hai faith at all, so I am rather at a loss how to approach you.

Because you believe in many messiahs, and you believe they are of a spiritual nature, they are nothing at all like the sort of messiah that Judaism teaches. Sorry.

 

[Trailblazer]

I admit I have not studied the Ba'hai faith at all, so I am rather at a loss how to approach you.

Because you believe in many messiahs, and you believe they are of a spiritual nature, they are nothing at all like the sort of messiah that Judaism teaches. Sorry.

Sorry, I have come to realize that Baha'i theology can be confusing to the adherents of the older religions, but it really isn't that complicated. I probably threw too much at you at once, I tend to do that.

First, Baha'is do not believe in many Messiahs. We believe in many Prophets (Messengers of God) who come throughout history with new messages. There is really only one Messiah of the latter days. Jesus is considered a Messiah because He came to lay the foundation for and announce the coming of the Messiah of the latter days, who we believe was Baha'u'llah.

Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah was the Messiah of the latter days but He was also a Prophet/Messenger of God, just like all the others. However, He had a special mission because He alone fulfilled all the prophecies of the past religions and thus He ushered in an entirely new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment (also known as the Baha'i Cycle).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry, I have come to realize that Baha'i theology can be confusing to the adherents of the older religions, but it really isn't that complicated. I probably threw too much at you at once, I tend to do that.

First, Baha'is do not believe in many Messiahs. We believe in many Prophets (Messengers of God) who come throughout history with new messages. There is really only one Messiah of the latter days. Jesus is considered a Messiah because He came to lay the foundation for and announce the coming of the Messiah of the latter days, who we believe was Baha'u'llah.

Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah was the Messiah of the latter days but He was also a Prophet/Messenger of God, just like all the others. However, He had a special mission because He alone fulfilled all the prophecies of the past religions and thus He ushered in an entirely new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment (also known as the Baha'i Cycle).

Thank you, my friend. That is very helpful, especially since you put it simply enough for someone that has never really looked into Baha'i at all.

Just for the record, since the Baha'ullah did not rule from Jerusalem, did not bring all the Jews out of diaspora back to Zion, and did not usher in an age of world peace, he does not pass the Jewish requirements of the Messiah. We also believe that the age of the prophets was over long ago.

But for whatever it's worth, bless you for believing in God and seeking to live a righteous life. You are A-Okay in my book.