Jehovah's Witnesses continuing persecution in Russia....

[oldbadger]

Did the civil engineers cover up the crimes of their fellow civil engineers? Did it take a Royal Commission to make the civil engineers provide information on 1,500 child sexual assaults they had knowledge of? Did civil engineers encourage people not to report crimes against their children because it might harm the name of civil engineers? Only if yes is the answer to those questions can you compare the two groups.

Generally speaking about human beings ...... yes.
You can bet your boots that government bodies and leaders of commerce, industry, travel, retail etc will duck and dive if necessary, even to save face, let alone cash or freedom. I picked civil engineers particularly for one particular RF member.

Yesterday on the (UK) News a hospital nurse has just been discovered to have been murdering babies, several lives so far. You want hospitals shut down?

Back in the 80's a Psychiatrist working at Cantrerbury's main mental hospital was found to have been raping his patients when they were in a certain condition of mind..... the hospital kept it quiet and moved him on. It was because of the very very brave actions of a nursing whistle-blower at Basingstoke Mental Hospital that he got caught, and even then the authorities tried to hush it all up.

This is easy......... pick any body that you dislike enough, and rummage into it, and if it's got humans in it then there will be a % of them that do bad things.
But where I live the JWs have the highest reputation for trustworthiness, far beyond any 'check-it-out' traders' organisations that are actually quite corrupt.

 

[oldbadger]

Cute long-haired dachshunds!
I had a short-haired, average one for a year....till it bit me in the lip!

Couldn’t trust it after that!

Ouch! And what a shock, since you trusted it before.

Daxies are dodgy..... On average they shouldn't live around children, for instance. Where a child can treat a golden retriever quite roughly in total safety, daxies tend to respond badly to rough treatment and will dish out justice.

I'm not saying that you were rough on yours, just that daxies can be dodgy. Our black-tan one gets fed up with the red one paying it too much attention, nuzzling it and so forth, and will bite her, but we know the warning signs now and our call of 'No Teef!' is respected now.

 

[oldbadger]

In what way do they "help"? Because even in the UK, the Salvation Army isn't free from controversy, including referring LGBT people to conversion therapy, refusing benefits for LGBT workers spouses, and opposing the repeal of laws in the UK that oppressed homosexuals. They can say all they like, but it's what they do that speaks louder. All throughout their existence, they give with one hand, and take with the other.

You see?
Because the Sally has made mistakes you're not going to fiorget 'em, I'll guess. You read about them and remembered them.

But you have never researched to discover how they help folks, or you wouldn't have asked me...... true?

I know the Sally Army because when I retired in 2010 I took a part-time job in a mate's company as a carpet-cleaner. Once a month on Friday mornings I would visit the Sally's local hall to clean it's floors and carpets. Over the next five years I learned so much about the Sally's activities that were so beneficial for so many. The two Sally officers who ran the place were married, with children...... they believe in the bible and live by its guidance and laws.

I don't share the Sally's faith or lifestyles, cannot agree with all of their policies, but I'll bet that you and I could not agree totally with each other either...... but if you knocked on my door I's give you hospitality, a drink (tea or very bad coffee) etc

I also cleaned the JW's Kingdom Hall Carpets in the town and the nearby city, and met with so many young people who came to clear the chairs etc out so that I could work....... I was so impressed with them.

You see? I'll bet that you don't know these groups, you just read bad stuff about them..... and that's it. But it's not.

 

[oldbadger]

The generic answer to the question of... what is the best camera?, is... the one you have with you.

My gear isn't the best but being in the right spot at the right time is more important than $15,000 lenses. I've posted some of my pics in this thread https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/bird-obsession.209232/

Fantastic pics. Blooming amazing, and half of them taken in your garden! We never came close to such resolution as that, either.
Yes....... I get it.

What you should do is up to you. I thank them and say I'm not interested twice, if that doesn't work I walk away and leave them to continue with a yapping Maltese.

That's OK....... That's good, imo. Nothing wrong with that. Your dog even has a real job..... so do ours. The red daxie 'sounds' the hound call (the black-tan doesn't, she barks) and they can tell me there is a caller even if I'm down the garden.

Some folks open their doors shouting and such, and in some countries they even wave guns at callers.

I often wondered why post boxes were installed outside US grounds, or paper-deliverers chucked newspapers into house grounds from outside..... I think that religious callers in some countries are very very brave.

Depends on your view I guess. Promising people paradise if they believe what you believe or eternal torture if you don't is at the upper scale of villain in my opinion.

They don't......... they can't promise anything. It's a Faith, not a certitude.

My nickname from friends and family is Grumpy if that's any indication.

Fair enough.

 

[oldbadger]

Here too, they helped me out during the GFC when we were in trouble.

I had to 'google' GFC. Were you in financial difficulty? The only GFC which matched was 'global financial crisis' .

How did they help you?

 

[Deeje]

Nah. the basic difference, or divide is not at all
where you think it is.

See, we understand that a tight knit cult will have
everyone thinking alike. People were not born terrorists, or scientologists, nazis or commies.
Orr JWs.

But, given a bit of time and powerful group dynamics,
people can be gotten to believe anything, and
act in heroic or depraved ways.

And of course, you do not see yourself in those descriptors....?
No one is born a scientist either.

You could not possibly be hoodwinked by 'powerful group dynamics'? I understand.

The whole Noahs ark thing is so ridiculous, it
is a wonderful example of what people can be
made to believe, fight nor, no matter how patently
wrong it is.

It just completely kills any possible credibility
your beliefs have.

So yaah basic difference. Its like the difference
between a fantasy world, and a real one.

You say that with such conviction.....good for you. "Fantasy" being what takes place in the mind rather than in reality.....but science couldn't possibly fit that description....except when it comes to macro-evolution...could it?
Credibility is in the eye of the beholder. God does not have the limits you seem to want to place on him.

My eyes see things so differently to you. The eyes of faith I guess.

Either God exists or he doesn't....won't it be fun to find out? ...or not.

 

[oldbadger]

Here’s an incomplete list:

http://whatstheharm.net/jehovahswitnesses.html

Super! Thankyou!
So on an agenda-driven communication there were about 12 deaths dating back to 1971. Got it.

Now let's have a look at a Newspaper article which focused upon deaths, serious conditions, illnesses and adverse effects caused by blood transfusions in ONE YEAR. OK?
And the group which ammassed the figures is a professional lead body of medics. Check it out.

Check it out.......

Last year, according to Shot, blood transfusions were associated with eight deaths, 3,038 reported adverse incidents and 117 cases of major harm. The figures include 180 allergic reactions, including 33 that were potentially life-threatening.15 Oct 2012
Killed by a needless blood transfusion - Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/.../Killed-by-a-needless-blood-transfusion.html

SHOT is the United Kingdom independent, professionally-led ... transfusion from all healthcare organisations that are involved in the transfusion of blood and ...

You didn't come close........... now you need to multiply those deaths by about 40 to compare with your stats from 1971.

I don’t know of any group of civil engineers who protect pedophiles by refusing to act on abuse allegations unless the crime was witnessed by two people. Do you?

How about deaths caused by incompetence, carelessness, negligence? It's horses for courses.......... in an earlier post I mentioned how a British Hospital (SA) covered up a Psychiatrist's (Dr A) serial rapes, only for him to be eventually caught at another hospital (Basingstoke) after a very brave nurse risked her career to blow the whistle on him.... he was convicted on 8 (or 13, can't remember) counts and jailed for 8 years.
Will you refuse to go to hospital when you next feel very ill?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I had to 'google' GFC. Were you in financial difficulty? The only GFC which matched was 'global financial crisis' .

How did they help you?

Global Financial Crisis, that's the one. I was working as a specialist contractor in the mining sector, then suddenly found myself without a job, in a town where expenses of living were still very much geared from the mining boom. We were never, like, utterly destitute, or anything, but there were a couple of times I had pressing needs for stuff like medication and baby stuff that wouldn't wait and I wasn't going to have any free cash for days at least, and the Salvoes helped us out. I disagree with much of their theology, but there were a couple of occasions when I was really stuck and they helped me out, no questions asked (other than, you know, "what do you need the money for?", obviously). I'll always be grateful.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Super! Thankyou!
So on an agenda-driven communication there were about 12 deaths dating back to 1971. Got it.

Now let's have a look at a Newspaper article which focused upon deaths, serious conditions, illnesses and adverse effects caused by blood transfusions in ONE YEAR. OK?
And the group which ammassed the figures is a professional lead body of medics. Check it out.

Check it out.......

Last year, according to Shot, blood transfusions were associated with eight deaths, 3,038 reported adverse incidents and 117 cases of major harm. The figures include 180 allergic reactions, including 33 that were potentially life-threatening.15 Oct 2012
Killed by a needless blood transfusion - Telegraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/.../Killed-by-a-needless-blood-transfusion.html

SHOT is the United Kingdom independent, professionally-led ... transfusion from all healthcare organisations that are involved in the transfusion of blood and ...

You didn't come close........... now you need to multiply those deaths by about 40 to compare with your stats from 1971.


How about deaths caused by incompetence, carelessness, negligence? It's horses for courses.......... in an earlier post I mentioned how a British Hospital (SA) covered up a Psychiatrist's (Dr A) serial rapes, only for him to be eventually caught at another hospital (Basingstoke) after a very brave nurse risked her career to blow the whistle on him.... he was convicted on 8 (or 13, can't remember) counts and jailed for 8 years.
Will you refuse to go to hospital when you next feel very ill?

I think there's a bit of a qualitative difference, though. Accidents, negligence and assault by HCPs are bad things that really happen, but they're not inherent to medical care, which is intended as beneficial. The JW prohibition on blood transfusions seems, at best, unnecessarily risky, at best, at least to non-JWs. On the behalf of the JWs, I have asked about it, but I've never heard an explanation from any of them that made me think that next time I'm medically advised to receive treatment with blood products, I'll decline.

Sure, there are risks from blood product treatments. There are risks associated with all medical procedures. The point is that inaction is riskier, cherry picked outliers notwithstanding.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

. "Fantasy" being what takes place in the mind rather than in reality.....but science couldn't possibly fit that description...

Nope. Science is based on repeatable experiment and observation of tangible phenomena. Fantasy is not.

 

[John53]

Generally speaking about human beings ...... yes.
You can bet your boots that government bodies and leaders of commerce, industry, travel, retail etc will duck and dive if necessary, even to save face, let alone cash or freedom.

Sure but do they cover up child sexual assault on a large scale?

I picked civil engineers particularly for one particular RF member.

So a cheap shot.

Yesterday on the (UK) News a hospital nurse has just been discovered to have been murdering babies, several lives so far. You want hospitals shut down?

No. Did the hospital cover up the murders and leave the murderer to carry on? And are you trying to claim I want the JW religion shut down? Because that is wrong and I don't remember saying it and it's a bit of a jump from saying I don't want them disturbing me in my private residence.

Back in the 80's a Psychiatrist working at Cantrerbury's main mental hospital was found to have been raping his patients when they were in a certain condition of mind..... the hospital kept it quiet and moved him on. It was because of the very very brave actions of a nursing whistle-blower at Basingstoke Mental Hospital that he got caught, and even then the authorities tried to hush it all up.

Great, if a Psychiatrist posts the world would be a better place if everyone was a Psychiatrist I'll be sure to point out this example to them. It's a pity there wasn't a very very brave JW whistle-blower, hundreds of children might have been protected from predators.

This is easy......... pick any body that you dislike enough, and rummage into it, and if it's got humans in it then there will be a % of them that do bad things.

Which was my point at the beginning.

But where I live the JWs have the highest reputation for trustworthiness, far beyond any 'check-it-out' traders' organisations that are actually quite corrupt.

I only know two, they live across the street from me and one of them is a very selfish person who I personally witnessed stealing from the community and at one time he prolonged the distress of my wife when with a handful of words and a few minutes of his time he could have eased her mind. I also lived next door to another 2 JW's and they were wonderful people, although I didn't agree with their decision to use a naturopath instead of the medical profession when the wife was diagnosed with breast cancer but that was really none of my business.

There is good and evil (and all shades in between) in all groups of people.

 

[John53]

Fantastic pics. Blooming amazing, and half of them taken in your garden! We never came close to such resolution as that, either.
Yes....... I get it.

Thanks. I'm very lucky and live in paradise. It's the middle of winter and I was just down at the river in shorts and a t-shirt.

They don't......... they can't promise anything. It's a Faith, not a certitude.

Exactly. So the question is why do they?

 

[oldbadger]

Of course, as I am correct in my observations,
.............................

Correct? Or totally prejudiced?

 

[oldbadger]

I think there's a bit of a qualitative difference, though. Accidents, negligence and assault by HCPs are bad things that really happen, but they're not inherent to medical care, which is intended as beneficial. The JW prohibition on blood transfusions seems, at best, unnecessarily risky, at best, at least to non-JWs. On the behalf of the JWs, I have asked about it, but I've never heard an explanation from any of them that made me think that next time I'm medically advised to receive treatment with blood products, I'll decline.

Sure, there are risks from blood product treatments. There are risks associated with all medical procedures. The point is that inaction is riskier, cherry picked outliers notwithstanding.

OK......... My JW visitor had a big operation two years ago. The whole procedure was supported by the infusion of plasmas. The Blood transfusion problem occurs less and less these days, or so I'm told.

There are aspects of that religion which I worry about, but it's their faith......... and the public have never bothered to research it, and so all they scream about is 'them lot kills their kids!'

It's rather like me screaming 'In the US they like guns, which kill 80 people every day!'...... Oh..... hang on..... that's really true.

 

[oldbadger]

Sure but do they cover up child sexual assault on a large scale?

John, they cover up anything which might cause them difficulty or loss of face.
During the 70's and 80's our doctors and hospitals were prescribing Eplipsy drugs which affect pregnant women's unborn babies like thalidomide did before. Unlike the Oz doctor who discovered the thalidomide tragedy the authorities here covered up the thousands of cases of disabled babies and in the extreme cases they sent very senior personnel out to convince the shocked parents to accept a 'professional' decision to put the babies on 'feed on demand'. Such babies don't call for food. Problem reduced.
Last October about 100 disabled people were bringing a court action against the government for the cause of their injuries in a test case. One week before the Court case the government withdrew legal aid funding which closed down the entire case, thus protecting from the several thousands of sufferers who awaited the legal outcome.

It's a very wicked World, as you no doubt know, and I really cannot bring myself up to any feelings of heat over the fact that some JWs have been bad.

So a cheap shot.
No. Did the hospital cover up the murders and leave the murderer to carry on? And are you trying to claim I want the JW religion shut down? Because that is wrong and I don't remember saying it and it's a bit of a jump from saying I don't want them disturbing me in my private residence.

Cheap shot? Well, yeah........ but that member and I have debated heatedly for several years and some cheap shots are .... well.... fun. Anyway, it was just a custard tart, and I missed.
You answered my post to that member, and so I answered in that mindset.

 

[oldbadger]

Thanks. I'm very lucky and live in paradise. It's the middle of winter and I was just down at the river in shorts and a t-shirt.

Exactly. So the question is why do they?

Oh John......!
On Sunday our water got cut off.. after raising my water charges by about 400% this year.

No JW ever promised me anything....... but the bloody water people did.

 

[oldbadger]

Sure but do they cover up child sexual assault on a large scale?

Our blooming MPs (some) have been sexually assaulting and bullying their private secretaries and staff for years, we're finding out now.
Sports coaches (some) have been sexually assaulting and raping kids for decades, we're finding out now.,

etc etc

But I've never read about hundreds of JW sexual assaults.
Have you got any links?

 

[Deeje]

Nope. Science is based on repeatable experiment and observation of tangible phenomena. Fantasy is not.

My definition of fantasy is making wild claims about something you can't prove whilst expecting people to accept what you believe is true even though you have only flimsy circumstantial evidence and biased interpretation of said evidence to back it up. We get accused of that all the time....but the truth is, it applies equally to the science of macro-evolution.

That is why I find the "Science is based on repeatable experiment and observation of tangible phenomena" to be rather laughable actually because what 'experiments and tangible evidence' are we talking about when it applies to macro-evolution? "Might have" or "could have" or "this leads us to believe that..." is not exactly scientific language now, is it? Yet that is all I see in the science that I have been presented with to support this theory.

You have "experiments" in a laboratory that give scientists "evidence" (the real kind) that adaptation can take place within single taxonomic families of creatures. When I look up "speciation" what do I see? Evidence for evolution? NO! I see adaptation in creatures because of changes in their environment or food source. I see new varieties of creatures or organisms in the same family, but adapted to new surroundings. What I don't see is one family of creatures crossing over (or morphing) into something else. And let's face it, if evolution were true, we should see an awful lot of evidence for that. But we don't.

Did the fruit flies become anything other than a new variety of fruit flies.....or the stickleback fish become anything other than a new variety of that particular species of fish. What did Darwin see? Exactly that. The finches were still finches. The tortoises were still tortoises and the iguanas were still iguanas just adapted to island life and food. Nothing more. The rest was based on imagination.

If science wants us to believe that single called organisms can morph themselves into dinosaurs, just by adding several million years to the equation, then I'm sorry but your fantasy is harder to believe than mine is.

How does science "know" what happened all those millions of years ago? They guess......they assume....and they suggest. Is that real science.....or is it science fiction based on wishful thinking? A good diagram does not take the place of solid evidence.

I know what I think......but you are free to believe whatever fantasy they want you to accept. Just don't tell me that they can prove any of it because all the evolutionists tell me the same thing...there is no proof in science......if there is no way to prove what they say, what does that make it? Fantasy

 

[John53]

Our blooming MPs (some) have been sexually assaulting and bullying their private secretaries and staff for years, we're finding out now.
Sports coaches (some) have been sexually assaulting and raping kids for decades, we're finding out now.,

etc etc

Exactly and my point from the beginning, good and evil in all groups of people and if I see MP's or Sports Coaches on here claiming the world would be a better place if everyone was a MP or Sports Coach then I'll point this out to them.

But I've never read about hundreds of JW sexual assaults.
Have you got any links?

Posted it earlier in the thread but here goes again, this is just Australia. https://www.childabuseroyalcommissi...eport-jehovahs-witness-organisations-released

 

[Deeje]

Sure but do they cover up child sexual assault on a large scale?

Let's not get carried away.

There was a lot of sexual abuse of children covered up in many organizations, a small percentage of cases occurred in ours in past decades. But there is now a whole different attitude towards this crime. Believe it or not about the middle of last century (we were around then) not only was there was a completely different attitude towards it, but we hardly ever heard of it. Only when damaged victims were committing suicide and suffering from PTSD did authorities take this crime more seriously. It has taken getting into a new century to refine the way things are handled. Why do you think it took so long to prosecute the perpetrators? We are going back decades.

The judicial system treated it badly too, exposing the victims to cruel cross examination in the hope of getting these rock spiders off the charges, and traumatising the victims even more.

What makes you think we want to cover up this crime?

The fact is, child abuse was a difficult charge to make stick legally because there were usually no witnesses. So a lot of perps got off because they had no evidence to convict them......now they do. Now that child psychologists are involved, it is easier to bring charges and to prosecute the abuser.

Our elders are not the police. And today if there is an accusation brought before them, the parents are urged to go to the police. We don't want these people in our organisation any more than anyone else. You seem to be on some kind of vendetta, making accusations akin to slander. You seem to have little regard for the truth....or want to believe every sensational story your read.

These days there are also some very media savvy kids who will bring an accusation against someone just to get back at them for something. Reputations are ruined because the mud sticks. Do you know the difference? Can you tell just by what they say?

I see OB being very fair minded......what about you?