Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

[QuestioningMind]

Except, of course, that you are capable of changing your requirements. And it's only your unwillingness to do so that is making you "incapable".
Unfortunately, you've fallen into a false dichotomy, here. As no one knows how many people believe whatever they believe about God because the idea was handed to them, and they never bothered to question it, or because they have questioned it, in depth, and found it to be a valuable ideal for them to continue believing in. Some people are gullible fools who have allowed themselves to be "brainwashed" through intellectual neglect. But others are not. And they have given far more thought to the question than you have, and then have determined that, for them, faith in 'God X' is the most logical and positively effective choice.

I'm all for skepticism, but skepticism without an understanding of the value and necessity for faith is just another form of self-blinding ignorance. No different from the "brainwashing" you are accusing so many others of accepting.
Something we can agree on. I see no logical reason why an entity such as we humans generally define as "God" would care in the least what we believe about it, or anything else.

Except, of course, that you are capable of changing your requirements. And it's only your unwillingness to do so that is making you "incapable".

Perhaps YOU are capable of shutting down your logical reasoning brain in order to believe in claims without verifiable evidence, but I am not. Personally I find it hard to believe that you can just 'decide' to believe that magical fairies are real, even though you have zero evidence to back up the claim. But if you say that you can, I'll take your word for it.

Unfortunately, you've fallen into a false dichotomy, here. As no one knows how many people believe whatever they believe about God because the idea was handed to them, and they never bothered to question it, or because they have questioned it, in depth, and found it to be a valuable ideal for them to continue believing in. Some people are gullible fools who have allowed themselves to be "brainwashed" through intellectual neglect. But others are not. And they have given far more thought to the question than you have, and then have determined that, for them, faith in 'God X' is the most logical and positively effective choice.

No, because I wrote that in response to the claim that because 93% of people claim to believe in god that it somehow gives credence to the notion that god must be real.

I'm all for skepticism, but skepticism without an understanding of the value and necessity for faith is just another form of self-blinding ignorance. No different from the "brainwashing" you are accusing so many others of accepting.
Something we can agree on. I see no logical reason why an entity such as we humans generally define as "God" would care in the least what we believe about it, or anything else.

Yet I see no value or necessity to believe in any fantastical claim without verifiable evidence. If I have verifiable evidence, I have no need for faith. If a belief requires faith in order to accept it, then I don't think it's a belief worth holding.

 

[ChristineM]

I guess you mean there must be proof of God’s existence first.

That is impossible because there is no proof that God exists. There is only evidence.

There is a 100% lack of evidence for gods. So yes, impossible

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no doubt that we NEED such messages. But that wasn't really the question. The question is why aren't we all just getting them directly from God.

Why should everyone get the same message that Baha’u’llah got directly from God? Do you realize that He wrote over 15,000 Tablets? Do you really think that “everyone” could receive and record all those Tablets?

Why would it be necessary for everyone to get the same messages He got directly from God, when God can reveal those messages to one Messenger who can receive and record the messages and make them available to everyone in the world?

It is a moot point what people want because no ordinary human is capable of receiving direct communication from God. Only a Messenger of God has those capabilities.

What I refer to as Messengers of God are also called Manifestations of God.

A Manifestation of God is human, but more than a human. He has a human nature so He can communicate to humans and act as a mediator, but He also has a universal divine mind, which is beyond the reach of our understanding. We can understand His human side, but not His divine side.

Only the Holy Manifestations of God have a universal divine mind, heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations. A portion and share of this power comes to the righteous man through the Holy Manifestations.

Manifestations of God are another order of God’s creation, a Being in between a man and a God. They are not like us so we cannot fully comprehend their nature.

And the answer is that if God exists, and is the omni-entity that most of us envision, then there is no logical reason why God would need to communicate with any of us beyond the message of existence, itself.

You just said “I have no doubt that we NEED such messages.” Now you are saying all we need to know is that God exists? Now I am confused.

God’s grace and mercy come to the world by means of the Messengers of God. If for one moment God’s mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. That mercy and grace is bestowed upon mankind by means of the Messengers of God who bring the Holy Spirit and a “message” mankind needs for its present-day situation in order to survive and thrive. Whether people believe in them or not, no one has ever escaped these Messengers and they have never been hindered from achieving their purpose. They have been sent from eternity, and they will continue to succeed each other for eternity. The Grace of God can never cease from flowing.

The fact that people are “unaware” of this does not mean it is not a reality. One who does not know God’s Messengers is like a plant growing in the shade. It is unaware of the sun but is nevertheless totally dependent upon the sun. The great Messengers of God are like spirit suns. If they had not warmed and vivified the world the world would be cold and dead. The former suns have set upon the horizon. They can no longer vivify the world. The sun of this day is Baha’u’llah and He alone can ripen the fruits.

God’s grace and mercy are bestowed upon humanity in the form of the messages God reveals to the Messengers, which are akin to a set of instructions. These instructions when followed enable to world to keep evolving spiritually and materially. Most people rejected the message of Baha’u’llah when He appeared in the 19th century and even now most people are either unaware of it or they have rejected it, and that is why the world is in the mess it is in now. The primary problem we see in the world is disunity and the inability of people to get along, individually and on a larger scale, such as between governments of the various nations. Unity does not mean uniformity. People can still retain their individual differences and live in harmony with others.

The unity of mankind was the primary message of Baha’u’llah. Until people heed His call and follow His instructions there is going to be no major improvement in the world situation.

“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't ask about proof; I asked about evidence... and you didn't answer the question.

I did answer the question.

9-10ths_Penguin said: What evidence?

Trailblazer said: His character, His life, His teachings, His predictions that came to pass, stuff like that...
Not only do we know exactly what Baha’u’llah wrote in His Own Pen, we also know what Baha’u’llah said to other people and how He treated other people, because it is recorded in their memoirs which are published in books. These people knew Baha’u’llah personally and they attested to His character and His truthfulness.

Okay; so if that wasn't what you were going for, how was his character evidence that he was a messenger of God?

It is “part” of the evidence but that alone would not be adequate evidence because some people who are not Messengers of God have a good character.

What evidence? Please be specific.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His Person (His character); the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

All this constitutes evidence that is verifiable.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe a person who will not believe a messenger will not believe God either. Remember the Pharisees had God in the person of Jesus speaking directly to them and they refused to believe Him.

Good point about the Pharisees, and the Jews in general...

“And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the Day Spring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfil the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the Face of God. And they still await His coming! From time immemorial even unto this day, all the kindreds and peoples of the earth have clung to such fanciful and unseemly thoughts, and thus have deprived themselves of the clear waters streaming from the springs of purity and holiness….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 20-21

They had neither eyes to see or ears to hear.

Matthew 13:16-17 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

As for the nonbelievers, they just think they would believe in God if God communicated to them directly but they probably wouldn’t even believe God then.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe God exists because He communicates through me. If you want to hear God listen to me.

He does in the sense that you tell people about Jesus...
They won’t hear God speak to them directly, but they will hear about God if they listen to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

That sounds like a cop out.
For someone who is supposed to be a supreme being god isn't very intelligent is he?

God is intelligent enough to know that using Messengers is the best way to communicate messages to humanity.
God’s intelligence comes with being All-Knowing and All-Wise.

 

[Trailblazer]

So,

God creates an imperfect human

puts him into an imperfect world

and he does imperfect things

Therefore he deserves eternal punishment.

This belief of yours is so irrationally evil that I am unable to believe in your religion, which is Christianity.

Tom

No, it goes like this....

God creates a perfect human and gives him free will.

God puts him into a material world.

Some humans choose to do evil things.

Therefore they deserve some kind of punishment...
Nobody really knows what that will be or how long it will last.

That is a synopsis of the Baha’i belief on the subject.

 

[Trailblazer]

You REALLY need to make up your mind. FIRST you claim that you never claimed that I don't require verifiable evidence before I'm capable of believing in a god. And then in the very next paragraph you say: “Every man is capable of believing in God because they were created that way. But that does not mean every man will be able to do what they are capable of doing.
So if I REQUIRE verifiable evidence in order to believe in a god and this godis NOT going to provide me with verifiable evidence, that means I am NOT capable of believing in this god.

It is true that every man is capable, but not every man will be do what they are capable of doing. I am capable of riding my bike to work but if I have convinced myself I am incapable I will not try to do that.

PureX #240said:
“Except, of course, that you are capable of changing your requirements. And it's only your unwillingness to do so that is making you "incapable".”

So it is only my unwillingness to try to ride my bicycle to work that makes me incapable of doing so. If I change my mind then I will be capable.

I call you gullible because you are willing to believe in things without verifiable evidence. And the vast majority of people in the world are gullible, because as you said, they believe in whatever god they were raised to believe in, NOT because they have evidence to back up their beliefs. So when you claim that 93% of people believe in god, all you are telling me is that 93% of the people in the world were brainwashed to believe in whatever god they believe in and are too gullible to think for themselves.

To say that the 93% of people who believe in God are all gullible is illogical on its face because there are so many different reasons people believe in God. It is illogical to say that since there is no verifiable evidence that God exists, everyone who believes in God without verifiable evidence is gullible, because you are projecting your need for verifiable evidence onto everyone else. Not everyone needs verifiable evidence, only atheists do, but depending upon what other evidence they had, they might be gullible or not. If they believed just because they were told to believe by their parents or friends or clergy, or if they believed with no evidence at all, then maybe you could say they were gullible, but if they did a lot of research on their own and they came up with good evidence then they are not gullible.

And if the greatest obstacle to true belief is that the vast majority of people already have a religion, that again suggests that your god is rather weak and ineffectual. The method that's being used to enlighten people to the truth clearly doesn't work very well. And that suggests that this god isn't really all that interested in having people believe in it.

That does not compute at all because God just sends the Messenger and after that God’s job is done. If the vast majority of people who already have a religion are attached to that religion and as a result they reject God’s “new” Messenger that does not have anything to do with God being weak or ineffectual. It is only related to a free will choice humans make. What it suggests is that most humans are not that interested in believing in the new Messenger.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahauallah layed down the foundations for a Bahai World Order, controlled by Local, National and World Houses of Justice, all occupied by Bahais, and none but Bahais can be voted for or vote.

The part you conveniently omitted is that this Baha’i World Order will never replace any incumbent governments. Only if governments choose to pattern their institutions after the Baha’i institutions will that ever take place. I would have to be voluntary, it would never be forced. One of the essential teachings of the Baha’i Faith is to obey the government, so to even suggest that there is a “plan” to overthrow any government is just a lie. It is calumny designed to denigrate the Baha’i Faith but it won’t work because it is false.

Bahai believes that when these Houses of Justice (known at this time as spiritual assemblies) together, that they are spiritually 'connected' or 'guided' .......... what did you think 'spiritual assembly' meant?

It means an assembly of none people who serve on a democratically elected institution of the Baha’i Faith; nothing more, nothing less.

I wrote in my post about Bahai, and I dare because I know enough about Bahai to be extremely suspicious about it.
And I have reason to believe that Bahai has been deceptive about its true purposes.

That is paranoia, plain and simple. There is absolutely no reason to think that there is any deception within the Baha’i Faith, such as the anti-Baha propagandists say come from the UHJ. There would be no motive whatsoever.

Not true........ Bahais won't take part in any politics BUT THEIR OWN, and with enough Bahais in an area then Bahais could control through their spiritual assemblies which one day would become Houses of Justice, with their own legislation, laws, punishments, civil law and everything else.

So your ideas about impossible are not true.

Again, what you are omitting is that even if the Houses of Justice had their own legislation, laws, punishments, civil law and everything else, this would only apply to Baha’is, not to anyone else. And since one has to voluntarily make the choice to become a Baha’i, it would never affect anyone who did not make that choice. There is no crossover between the Baha’i Faith institutions and the institutions of secular governments. There never will be.

Lots of words which totally avoid mention of Bahai laws, Courts, Police Forces, Houses of Justice, voting rights........ Bahai cloaks its true intentions with 'lots of words' which evade the issues and questions.

So I dare to make mention of this.........

That is pure paranoia unless of course you have some verifiable evidence to back up your claims. Obviously that evidence would have to come from an objective source, not from a defamer of the Baha’i Faith.

 

[1213]

The Bible is not the only Word of God.

What is the other word?

 

[Trailblazer]

You restrict yourself in so many ways when you place God in a box with only messengers for your access. If God talks to messengers, God can talk to you.

The only access anyone has to God is through Messengers. I do not put myself there, God put me there by virtue of His choice to limit accessibility.

Does all your information about God come only from your messengers? It is so much easier to follow others than Discover Truth for yourself, however is it really better relying on mere beliefs than Discovering facts?

What facts are you referring to?

I can discover many facts about the world, but I cannot get any information about God except through a Messenger. I cannot Discover God for myself, except through God’s Creation which is a reflection of God. However, that is not the most direct way to know about God. The Messenger is the most direct way.

Can you think of no better way than mankind's rule,punish methods. You say you do not value the list of petty things yet you do and do not know it. Example: Punishment for people who choose evil. Unconditional Love which is God, always does what is best for the other. Is mere punishment really the answer? Is hurting those who hurt really justice?

There is no simple answer to those questions. For example, we cannot assume that all people who do evil because they hurt. Even if that is the reason, what about the people they hurt? What about the pain they cause by their actions? It always depends upon the circumstances of the evil; even in the courts punishments are not doled out uniformly. However, to say that nobody ever deserves any punishment is too simplistic. God’s Love must be tempered by Justice. Should rulers who oppress their people be forgiven? How then can there ever be justice for the people?

64: O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH! Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 44

Unconditional Love always does what is best for the other. Isn't the best thing for those who choose evil is to Teach them what evil really is and what they are doing?

Absolutely, if that is possible.

Mankind's prisons are so sad. How much is being done to solve the choosing evil problem? Seems payback is valued over everything else. Isn't payback just an excuse to hate?

I agree, but what is the alternative, to allow murderers to keep murdering? The goal/objective of the Messenger is to teach people the right way of living so they would not commit evil deeds.

God's system is teaching everyone everyday as we speak regardless of mankind. Can you see that?

I do not know what you are referring to as God’s system. Do mean learning by experience, trial and error. If so I agree that is how we learn. That is the reason we were put here on earth.

God is more open than you realize. It stares us all in the face. In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. From there one can find understanding. It does take lots of work to see and understand.

God is a complete Mystery. God’s actions are unknowable. One cannot know what God is doing at any time. We can only surmise, and chances are we will be wrong.

As I see it, if one were to start a path to Discovery, there are a couple of things to take along. 1. Just like all the physics of this world add up, so does everything about God. If it does not add up, it's more than likely mankind. 2. Keep in mind, Ebb and Flow of true knowledge. Example: if I were to build a car, there are some things all cars must have, an engine, a way to stop and steer and a place to sit or ride. This sort of reasoning can move one forward.

The problem I have with that is that people can imagine any number of things about God. The mere fact that people have so many different beliefs and ideas about God is proof of that. If they disagree, then logically speaking, they cannot all be right. Who can know anything about an ineffable God and why do they think that they know?

When one understands one thing, it opens doors which lead to more doors which one, in time, can open. I think when one opens enough doors and understands God enough, finding or actually communicating with God is the next step. None of God's children are restricted in any way. From here, hang onto your hat.

I agree that one thing leads to another. I am not restricted by what was revealed in my religion. Truth can be found everywhere if we are open to it.

Anyone can communicate to God but God does not communicate back. Thus anything people believe they are hearing is just in their imagination.

The question remains; Who actually wants a conversation with God? I find very few who do.

I think most people would want a conversation with God is that was possible, but most people know that is not possible, with the exception of some Christians who believe that the indwelt Holy Spirit talks to them. I consider that a false belief because God only talks to His Messengers.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is a 100% lack of evidence for gods. So yes, impossible

There is a 100% lack of proof because God wants it that way.

 

[CG Didymus]

The only access anyone has to God is through Messengers. I do not put myself there, God put me there by virtue of His choice to limit accessibility.

What facts are you referring to?

I can discover many facts about the world, but I cannot get any information about God except through a Messenger. I cannot Discover God for myself, except through God’s Creation which is a reflection of God. However, that is not the most direct way to know about God. The Messenger is the most direct way.

There is no simple answer to those questions. For example, we cannot assume that all people who do evil because they hurt. Even if that is the reason, what about the people they hurt? What about the pain they cause by their actions? It always depends upon the circumstances of the evil; even in the courts punishments are not doled out uniformly. However, to say that nobody ever deserves any punishment is too simplistic. God’s Love must be tempered by Justice. Should rulers who oppress their people be forgiven? How then can there ever be justice for the people?

64: O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH! Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 44

Absolutely, if that is possible.

I agree, but what is the alternative, to allow murderers to keep murdering? The goal/objective of the Messenger is to teach people the right way of living so they would not commit evil deeds.

I do not know what you are referring to as God’s system. Do mean learning by experience, trial and error. If so I agree that is how we learn. That is the reason we were put here on earth.

God is a complete Mystery. God’s actions are unknowable. One cannot know what God is doing at any time. We can only surmise, and chances are we will be wrong.

The problem I have with that is that people can imagine any number of things about God. The mere fact that people have so many different beliefs and ideas about God is proof of that. If they disagree, then logically speaking, they cannot all be right. Who can know anything about an ineffable God and why do they think that they know?

I agree that one thing leads to another. I am not restricted by what was revealed in my religion. Truth can be found everywhere if we are open to it.

Anyone can communicate to God but God does not communicate back. Thus anything people believe they are hearing is just in their imagination.

I think most people would want a conversation with God is that was possible, but most people know that is not possible, with the exception of some Christians who believe that the indwelt Holy Spirit talks to them. I consider that a false belief because God only talks to His Messengers.

Did Abdul Baha hear from God?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I do not believe that everyone deserves direct communication from God, a personal message.

I don't believe only "messengers" get messages. I believe that the best way to convey a message is to deal with it directly. Why do I need a prophet when I can talk to God and get answers back? Even Jesus says he came for the sick, not the well. That implies there are "well" people, who don't need him at all and get through their day just fine.

The All-Knowing and All-Wise God communicates in the best way possible such that all of humanity is able to get the communication.

God didn't invent the internet unless you believe something I skimmed on the internet that suggests Iktomi, the Sioux Spider Man, invented the World Wide Web.

The fact that a small number of people do not "like" the way that God communicates does not mean God is obligated to communicate differently.

He is obligated if He wants the message received correctly. He's God. I don't know why so many people want to excuse Him from doing His job.

God is under no obligation to humans.

I don't have obligations to my pencil, but it behooves me to avoid breaking it all the same.

God forms a Covenant

A contract involves obligations.

A Covenant is an agreement between two parties.

You are arguing that God has no reason nor motivation to keep His end of the bargain, though. Even Rumplestilskin will go through with the favor.

but humans have to do their part and recognize and follow the teachings and laws of those Messengers.

But we have little to no evidence that the person waving the contract around is the one who wrote it.

God only communicates to His Chosen Messengers because only they have the capacity to understand what God communicates.

But are they "chosen" or just "happen" to have the necessary anatomy to do the job?

God reveals Himself through His Messengers, and people can choose to believe in them or not.....

I don't want to believe in people. Most people are shallow, selfish, and stupid. Messengers are usually trying to sell me a Porsche while a Pinto is sitting in the lot.

God is not going to change His Method of communication, so if people don’t like it they will just have to remain nonbelievers.

Then God must man up and take responsibility for His laziness.

Why do people need direct communication from God in order to have value?

I'm beginning to think the Bahai are JW's in another language. Both reek of needing a lazy God who golfs instead of managing the company.

Far, far from making humans feel superior, it makes us realize that we are as nothing compared to God and His Messengers... We are humble servants at their door.

Spare me such humility. It's like gold claiming to be humble because it hasn't been turned into jewelry yet.

He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things

Except how to talk to everyone.

If I have an AM radio and need to listen to FM, I can look up how to order the parts and install them so it can play FM. It's not that hard. Maybe God needs to learn how to google?

Or so you say.

Or so the messengers said and some people just take them at their word. I started learning the problem with this concept when I thought eating Hungry Jack mashed potatoes would make me flip backwards like the kid in the commercial (I grew up an 80s kid). I didn't flip and it started occurring to me that I was being lied to.

Is God a human being? If not, then how could God communicate like we are doing now?

As I've noted, God is on Facebook. For awhile, He even had a blue check mark by His name verifying Him. FB God is a favorite of mine, as is Youtube's Mr Deity and the God of Darkmatter (though with the latter Jeffrey is far more amusing).

I am not the one in charge of the communication department, God is. So if God does not communicate with everyone directly, you will have to take that up with God, not with me.

But you're acting like you're marketing for a deity.

Tell me then, in what other way could God communicate the 15,000 Tablets He communicated to Baha'u'llah such that everyone in the world could gain access to that information?

The guy was from the 19th century, yes? Hadn't the telegraph been invented yet?

Who would listen to a God like that?

Especially when God's armies are defeated by chariots of iron? Those are just vehicles, not even weapons. God forbid (ahem) that God have to face someone with a gun.

anyone here
have you heard the Voice of God?
as did Moses

Yes, as have many others. Trail doesn't seem too interested in listening to anyone other than a dead guy though, but it's all the same for all messengers. Dead guys can't lecture you when you're wrong.

One of the fastest growing congregations is the Mormon church, but I doubt you take that as evidence for an angel giving Joseph Smith some golden plates written in some strange language.

Yeah, I don't. I don't understand why God is stuck with stone age message techniques. Give God an iPhone, stat!

His character, His life, His teachings, His predictions that came to pass, stuff like that...

I read like 7 books about a kid prophesied to defeat evil. He even became Master of Death as well. His teachings about defeating evil were more successful than nearly every actual teacher of the subject he had and one of those successful teachers was actually someone evil in disguise. This goes to show that learning a demon's weakness is best taught by the demon itself.

Why would God be obligated to communicate to everyone when God can communicate to one Messenger who can get the message out to everyone?

Because he didn't? I hadn't even heard of the guy until I joined this forum.

Jesus was a Comforter.

Yes, "let the dead bury their dead" just reeks of compassion and comfort for the grieving.

God does not communicate to Baha’is or anyone else directly. People can imagine that God is communicating to them if they want to.

Like your guy.

Do you realize that He wrote over 15,000 Tablets? Do you really think that “everyone” could receive and record all those Tablets?

I can type faster than I write. Is typing okay?

Do you read from those sets of tablets? Or a book which quotes the tablets? If a book, what stops anyone else from just writing it?

had annulled the laws of divorce and of the sabbath day

Not technically.

But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. "For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Pretty sure some heard some of Jesus' teachings because he owes a lot to Job and such for inspirations. It's almost like they thought of it first and Jesus was just parroting certain segments of it.

What is the other word?

I like the Mahabharata, to be honest. Krishna is much more entertaining than Jesus is.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is the other word?

The Holy Qur'an is the Word of God, but it is not the most current....
The Revelations of the Bab of Baha'u'llah are the most current Word of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Did Abdul Baha hear from God?

No, Abdu'l-Baha did not get a revelation from God.

 

[Bird123]

The only access anyone has to God is through Messengers. I do not put myself there, God put me there by virtue of His choice to limit accessibility.

What facts are you referring to?

I can discover many facts about the world, but I cannot get any information about God except through a Messenger. I cannot Discover God for myself, except through God’s Creation which is a reflection of God. However, that is not the most direct way to know about God. The Messenger is the most direct way.

There is no simple answer to those questions. For example, we cannot assume that all people who do evil because they hurt. Even if that is the reason, what about the people they hurt? What about the pain they cause by their actions? It always depends upon the circumstances of the evil; even in the courts punishments are not doled out uniformly. However, to say that nobody ever deserves any punishment is too simplistic. God’s Love must be tempered by Justice. Should rulers who oppress their people be forgiven? How then can there ever be justice for the people?

64: O OPPRESSORS ON EARTH! Withdraw your hands from tyranny, for I have pledged Myself not to forgive any man’s injustice. This is My covenant which I have irrevocably decreed in the preserved tablet and sealed with My seal.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 44

Absolutely, if that is possible.

I agree, but what is the alternative, to allow murderers to keep murdering? The goal/objective of the Messenger is to teach people the right way of living so they would not commit evil deeds.

I do not know what you are referring to as God’s system. Do mean learning by experience, trial and error. If so I agree that is how we learn. That is the reason we were put here on earth.

God is a complete Mystery. God’s actions are unknowable. One cannot know what God is doing at any time. We can only surmise, and chances are we will be wrong.

The problem I have with that is that people can imagine any number of things about God. The mere fact that people have so many different beliefs and ideas about God is proof of that. If they disagree, then logically speaking, they cannot all be right. Who can know anything about an ineffable God and why do they think that they know?

I agree that one thing leads to another. I am not restricted by what was revealed in my religion. Truth can be found everywhere if we are open to it.

Anyone can communicate to God but God does not communicate back. Thus anything people believe they are hearing is just in their imagination.

I think most people would want a conversation with God is that was possible, but most people know that is not possible, with the exception of some Christians who believe that the indwelt Holy Spirit talks to them. I consider that a false belief because God only talks to His Messengers.

By your definition, I must be a messenger. On the other hand, I think everyone is a messenger in some form.

As I see you, you have allowed Beliefs to become your facts to the point you no longer search for fact. You have messengers insulating you. You place limits and parameters on God which prevents you from discovering. You Follow. You Accept. Are you in a box unable to get out? Flypaper. Are you too weak to free yourself?

As I see it, I have pointed to the Higher Level above the petty things mankind values which is where God is. I have pointed you in a direction by which you can understand God, what God is really like, and what God is really doing with this world. I have pointed a direction by which you Can get God to speak to you. You say you want to have a two way conversation with God yet you are not ready.

The first thing God showed me was the mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that! I work on mine every day. Perhaps, that would be a good starting point for you. All those questions that you claim have no answer all do have answers. Everything can be Discovered. The assumption your questions have no answers just leads you to inactivity blindly following the beliefs of others.

You might not understand this but Following is not what God wants His children to do. There is so much you simply do not understand yet Real Truth and Knowledge exists all around us just waiting to be Discovered.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe only "messengers" get messages. I believe that the best way to convey a message is to deal with it directly. Why do I need a prophet when I can talk to God and get answers back? Even Jesus says he came for the sick, not the well. That implies there are "well" people, who don't need him at all and get through their day just fine.

You can talk to God whenever you want to, but if you think you are getting answers back, that is just your imagination. God does not talk to anyone except His Messengers.

God didn't invent the internet unless you believe something I skimmed on the internet that suggests Iktomi, the Sioux Spider Man, invented the World Wide Web.

No, God did not invent the internet but God created the humans who invented the internet, and it is sure a good medium to ensure that everyone has free access the Writings of Baha’u’llah in the Baha’i Reference Library online.

He is obligated if He wants the message received correctly. He's God. I don't know why so many people want to excuse Him from doing His job.

God did His job when He sent Baha’u’llah with a message. It is not God’s job to recognize Bahaullah. It is the job of humans to recognize Baha’u’llah since God gave them free will.

A contract involves obligations.

I know. The contract is between God and humanity. Both God and humanity have obligations. God’s obligation is never to leave man alone, so God sends Messengers. Humans are obligated to recognize those Messengers. That is their part of the contract.

You are arguing that God has no reason nor motivation to keep His end of the bargain, though. Even Rumplestilskin will go through with the favor.

God has always kept His end of the bargain, which is to send Messengers to humanity. However, much of humanity has failed to keep up their end of the bargain since most people reject the new Messenger God sends when He first appears and for a long time afterwards.

But we have little to no evidence that the person waving the contract around is the one who wrote it.

We know exactly who wrote the Writings of Baha’u’llah, since He wrote them in His Own Pen.

But are they "chosen" or just "happen" to have the necessary anatomy to do the job?

They are chosen because they have special qualifications, a universal divine mind and heavenly intellectual power, so their mind is capable of embracing and understanding things no ordinary human can understand. It has nothing to do with anatomy.

I don't want to believe in people. Most people are shallow, selfish, and stupid. Messengers are usually trying to sell me a Porsche while a Pinto is sitting in the lot.

Messengers of God are not just people. They are another order of God’s creation, a Being in between a man and a God. They are not like us so we cannot fully comprehend their nature. A real Messenger of God is not trying to sell anything. In fact Baha’u’llah wrote that he did not care if anyone believed in Him or not:

“Their belief or disbelief in My Cause can neither profit nor harm Me. We summon them wholly for the sake of God. He, verily, can afford to dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 85

Then God must man up and take responsibility for His laziness.

No, it is the humans that need to man up for their laziness. God did His job when He sent Baha’u’llah. Humans are responsible to research His claim, if they have any interest in knowing if God exists. God cannot be blamed for human laziness.

Except how to talk to everyone.

God does not owe everyone a private message. I suggest atheists who want one get over it or stop wasting their lives talking about it because God is never going to send private messages to everyone. That is utterly ridiculous and absolutely unnecessary.

Because he didn't? I hadn't even heard of the guy until I joined this forum.

You cannot blame God for that, but you can blame the Baha’is for not getting God’s message out to everyone.

Do you read from those sets of tablets? Or a book which quotes the tablets? If a book, what stops anyone else from just writing it?

I cannot read Persian and Arabic. The Tablets were translated from their original languages into English by the authorized translator and compiled in books. They are exactly what Baha’u’llah wrote.

 

[Trailblazer]

By your definition, I must be a messenger. On the other hand, I think everyone is a messenger in some form.

As I see you, you have allowed Beliefs to become your facts to the point you no longer search for fact. You have messengers insulating you. You place limits and parameters on God which prevents you from discovering. You Follow. You Accept. Are you in a box unable to get out? Flypaper. Are you too weak to free yourself?

As I see it, I have pointed to the Higher Level above the petty things mankind values which is where God is. I have pointed you in a direction by which you can understand God, what God is really like, and what God is really doing with this world. I have pointed a direction by which you Can get God to speak to you. You say you want to have a two way conversation with God yet you are not ready.

The first thing God showed me was the mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that! I work on mine every day. Perhaps, that would be a good starting point for you. All those questions that you claim have no answer all do have answers. Everything can be Discovered. The assumption your questions have no answers just leads you to inactivity blindly following the beliefs of others.

You might not understand this but Following is not what God wants His children to do. There is so much you simply do not understand yet Real Truth and Knowledge exists all around us just waiting to be Discovered.

Not by my definition of Messenger. Nobody gets messages from God except God’s Chosen Messengers.

Am I too weak? I have the inerrant Truth from God through Baha’u’llah. Why would I want to free myself from God’s Truth? I would have to be very arrogant to think I could know more than God's Messenger.

Why do people reject Messengers of God?

Religious people reject the “new” Messenger of God when He comes because they are “emotionally attached” to their older Messengers (e.g., Moses, Jesus).

Nonbelievers and nonreligious believers reject the Messengers because they arrogantly think they “know” that there is no such thing as a Messenger of God just because they have decided that. If they even entertain the possibility that a Messenger could come from God, they cannot fathom the idea that someone could know more than they know about God. They also do not like the idea of Authority Figures, and having to obey their teachings and laws.

This is what I have observed from daily posting to all of these groups of people over a period of over five years.

God does not show people anything. Nobody can discover God by themselves. We can only know God’s Attributes and God’s Will for humanity from what the Messenger reflects and reveals.

I am not ashamed because I am a follower, instead of a thinking I know more than a Messenger of God.
One can never know God if they cannot push their pride aside.

“We observe in nature that water can only flow from a high level to a lower one. It cannot flow to a point on the same level or on a higher one. Similarly, in order for a believer to receive the bounties of God from on high, he must be positioned on the opposite end of the scale, to be lowly, humble, and self-effacing.”
(AdibTaherzadeh, The Covenant of Baha’u’llah, p. 253)

Recognizing Baha’u’llah and obeying His teachings and laws is exactly what God wants everyone to do. These are called the Twin Duties.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331