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Why doesn’t God communicate directly to everyone?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
His character, His life, His teachings, His predictions that came to pass, stuff like that...
What about these things is evidence that he's a messenger of God?

Not only do we know exactly what Baha’u’llah wrote in His Own Pen, we also know what Baha’u’llah said to other people and how He treated other people, because it is recorded in their memoirs which are published in books. These people knew Baha’u’llah personally and they attested to His character and His truthfulness.
What does how he treated people have to do with the truth or falsehood of his claims? Or are you saying that it's impossible for someone to have his character unless they were a messenger of God?

Even if we take as given that he had an excellent reputation, this is stilll consistent with other possibilities:

- he was a liar, but a really good one.
- he only lied rarely.
- he sincerely believed his own claims, but was honestly mistaken.

Have you heard of the Toupee Fallacy? It's relevant here:

Toupée fallacy - RationalWiki
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That's easy to answer......................

Yes...... and in a Bahai World, where only Bahais would have a vote, and only Bahais could hold government office, Bahais could tell the World, 'We know that God only communicates to us Bahais, and because you have not joined us this clearly shows that we were right to exclude you from voting rights, and to exclude you from Local, National and the World Houses of Justice. The true God clearly wants to guide us Bahais..... only, because his messenger for this era is the Bahai messenger!'
The Messenger for this age is Baha’u’llah but none of the rest of what you said is true.

Baha’i World? Government office? There is no such world, except in your imagination.

God does not communicate to Baha’is or anyone else directly. People can imagine that God is communicating to them if they want to.
Trailblazer said... It was a general statement that applies to people searching for and recognizing the Messengers of God in whatever age in which they appear. What I said has nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith.

oldbadber said... Of course it does........ and in a Bahai World everybody who could not identify that the messenger is the Bahai messenger, then by definition they would be unfit to make any decisions about who should sit upon the Houses of Justice, or to have any chance of a seat themselves.

You may not see this, but there's plenty of us who do.
It's World political extremism on a whole new scale.
How dare you speak for me and what I meant by what I said.
Yes, there are plenty of people who have listened to the anti-Baha’i propaganda, the lies people tell about the Baha’i Faith.

Baha’is are not even allowed to participate in politics so that is virtually impossible.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….” The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I see no logical reason why an entity deemed to be the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that exists would need to communicate with any of us. After all, everything that exists will be existing as a direct result of It.
God communicates through His Messengers because God has a message for us, one we need to hear and do something with...

Do you watch any national or world news? Does it look like people are doing just fine?
People are in dire need of the message God sent through Baha'u'llah, but unfortunately most people either do not know about it or they have rejected it or they just do not care about the world situation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What about these things is evidence that he's a messenger of God?
It is evidence, it is not proof.
What does how he treated people have to do with the truth or falsehood of his claims? Or are you saying that it's impossible for someone to have his character unless they were a messenger of God?
No, I am not saying that. Of course that is not impossible.
Even if we take as given that he had an excellent reputation, this is stilll consistent with other possibilities:

- he was a liar, but a really good one.
- he only lied rarely.
- he sincerely believed his own claims, but was honestly mistaken.
Of course that is possible, anything is possible unless it can be disproven, but the other evidence counterbalances that possibility.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
God communicates through His Messengers because God has a message for us, one we need to hear and do something with...

Do you watch any national or world news? Does it look like people are doing just fine?
People are in dire need of the message God sent through Baha'u'llah, but unfortunately most people either do not know about it or they have rejected it or they just do not care about the world situation.
I have no doubt that we NEED such messages. But that wasn't really the question. The question is why aren't we all just getting them directly from God. And the answer is that if God exists, and is the omni-entity that most of us envision, then there is no logical reason why God would need to communicate with any of us beyond the message of existence, itself.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It is evidence, it is not proof.
I didn't ask about proof; I asked about evidence... and you didn't answer the question.

No, I am not saying that. Of course that is not impossible.
Okay; so if that wasn't what you were going for, how was his character evidence that he was a messenger of God?

Of course that is possible, anything is possible unless it can be disproven, but the other evidence counterbalances that possibility.
What evidence? Please be specific.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Are you counting the zombies that emerged from the grave, entered Jerusalem, and talked to many - but somehow escaped the notice of every person writing about the goings-on in Judea in this period - among those "thousands?"

I don't think they were thousands, and never got that from the text, honestly, but I'd say that if ten spirits popped out of a grave site on the Mount of Olives and 500 people saw it, about 100 would start praying, 400 would run and then later excuse what they'd seen--exactly my point on my other post to you today--THEIR experience is anecdotal.

Also, neither the apparitions of OT saints, nor as I say above, the eyewitnesses to the events, were "Christians". My point was merely to address the biblically unlearned person who suggested Paul invented Christianity, when there were tens of thousands of perhaps hundreds of thousands of born again Christians prior to Paul's conversion.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
You are a skeptic when it comes to Mormonism. If someone said that it was self evident that an angel gave Joseph Smith some golden plates, would you find that convincing? Also, it is written in Joseph Smith's own writings that these events happened.

Is it a near-universally accepted fact that people believe in these plates, who are not Mormons? (Yet I've often met skeptics for God's existence who say "Gosh, some force created all this, I know that!")

Do people commonly accept the plates when shown counter-evidence? (Whereas hundreds of millions of thoroughly modern, educated people, in different cultures worldwide, still adhere to literal Creation beliefs, and where I'm aware that LDS tends to show only those "facts" that support their prophets)

Do we have thousands of religious statements from all eras, and hundreds of thousands of poetry and prose lauds, of the plates or the majesty, power and wonder of the Creation?

Is it more reliable to take one man's word for plates, or 66 volumes written by individuals and teams over centuries, all testifying to Messianic expectations? For example, who is this person, described in 700 BCE?

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
On another forum I said: “One reason God does not communicate to everyone is because everyone does not deserve to know that God exists.” I said that people have to be willing to sincerely search for God using their own innate powers of reasoning in order to be worthy of knowing God exists, rather than just sitting back and doing nothing, waiting for God to communicate to them.

Then this one atheist said that was a lame-*** excuse and he says it is just common sense that God should communicate directly to everyone.

This is what he has been saying to me for over three years. Everyone (all of the 7.4 billion people in the world) should get direct communication from God. God should not use Messengers because not everyone believes in them, especially in the beginning, when they first show up on earth.

What do you think; does everyone on earth deserve direct communication from God or should people be required to search for God themselves?

I believe a person who will not believe a messenger will not believe God either. Remember the Pharisees had God in the person of Jesus speaking directly to them and they refused to believe Him.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Well, ignoring the fact that god doesn't exist. Which is the reason he/she doesn't communicate directly.

I have to say that communication in the 21st Century is so easy. Even Emperor Trump who is semi literate tweets. There is 24-hour news, the internet, etc, etc.

So yes, god should make an effort, you never know the number of followers may then increase.

I believe God exists because He communicates through me. If you want to hear God listen to me.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I believe I doubt that. I think some people deserve to go to Hell.
So,

God creates an imperfect human

puts him into an imperfect world

and he does imperfect things

Therefore he deserves eternal punishment.

This belief of yours is so irrationally evil that I am unable to believe in your religion, which is Christianity.

Tom
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I don't think they were thousands, and never got that from the text, honestly, but I'd say that if ten spirits popped out of a grave site on the Mount of Olives and 500 people saw it, about 100 would start praying, 400 would run and then later excuse what they'd seen--exactly my point on my other post to you today--THEIR experience is anecdotal.

Also, neither the apparitions of OT saints, nor as I say above, the eyewitnesses to the events, were "Christians". My point was merely to address the biblically unlearned person who suggested Paul invented Christianity, when there were tens of thousands of perhaps hundreds of thousands of born again Christians prior to Paul's conversion.
It's not even that, because we don't have a record of their experiences. Just somebody else's say-so that 500 people something.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
I did not insist that YOU do not require verifiable evidence. I said “I certainly do not know what it takes for you or anyone else to believe in God. I only know what it took for me.”

I also said “Every man is capable of believing in God because they were created that way. But that does not mean every man will be able to do what they are capable of doing. Lots of things happen in a person’s lifetime and some things that happen make it more difficult for some people to believe in God.”

Why do you have to call me gullible, so you can make yourself seem more circumspect than me? Why can’t you just understand that we are different, that believers are different than nonbelievers in what they require to believe in God? That said, I would be gullible if I had not spent years and years researching the Baha’i Faith.

Why do so many atheists have to put down believers? I am not putting down any atheists, I never do that. I just try to understand how they think and share what I believe and explain why I believe it.

The fact that they can't agree on their beliefs does not indicate that they are deluding themselves. It indicates that they all have a different religion, usually the one they were raised in, and they cling to that religion for dear life. So naturally a Christian is not going to agree with a Buddhist or a Muslim. They think they are the only ones who are right and everyone else is wrong. In that sense they are deluded because every religion was right for the time period (dispensation) in which it was revealed, until another religion was revealed... Then the new religion that was revealed was right in the sense that it was the “most current religion,” the religion God wanted everyone to follow in the new age.

But people of the older religions don’t know that because they are not privy to the core Baha’i theology called Progressive Revelation. Even when Baha’is tell them and they do know, they still cling to their older religions because it is human nature to feel more secure with what ine is familiar with. I never had that problem because I was not raised in a religious household. Both my parents had dropped out of Christianity before I was born.

In summary, all the religions were right for the “times” in which they were revealed, but only one religion is right in any given age because that religion is the only religion that is pertinent to that age.

God just sends the Messenger. After that God’s job is done. It is not God’s job to achieve goals for humans. Humans have free will so it is their responsibility to choose to believe in the new religion or not.

Whenever a new Messenger of God appears a few pure souls recognize that Messenger and follow him. Then later more and more recognize Him and the religion grows. This takes time.

Just because only a few people recognize the Messenger in the beginning that does not mean that HE was a failure. Humans have the free will to choose and they are the ones who fail when they fail to recognize the Messenger of God. If a Messenger is really from God it has to be a failure on the part of humans to recognize Him because humans are fallible and they make mistakes. It cannot be God’s failure or the Messenger’s failure because they are both infallible and cannot make mistakes. This is logic 101 stuff.

The biggest obstacle to the growth of the Baha’i Faith is the fact that about 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion. So there you have 84% of the world’s population, the vast majority of which are not even willing to consider the Baha’i Faith in order to determine if it is true or not. Then we have the rest of the world’s population who are agnostics or atheists or people who believe in God but dislike any religion.

Another problem is that not everyone knows about the Baha’i Faith and that is the fault of the Baha’is for not getting the message out to more people. Everyone knows about Mormonism because they have an organized system of getting the message out. I do not really know what is going on with the other Baha’is because I am not presently involved in community life. I do my own thing, thus the title Trailblazer. :)

You REALLY need to make up your mind. FIRST you claim that you never claimed that I don't require verifiable evidence before I'm capable of believing in a god. And then in the very next paragraph you say: “Every man is capable of believing in God because they were created that way. But that does not mean every man will be able to do what they are capable of doing.
So if I REQUIRE verifiable evidence in order to believe in a god and this god is NOT going to provide me with verifiable evidence, that means I am NOT capable of believing in this god.

I call you gullible because you are willing to believe in things without verifiable evidence. And the vast majority of people in the world are gullible, because as you said, they believe in whatever god they were raised to believe in, NOT because they have evidence to back up their beliefs. So when you claim that 93% of people believe in god, all you are telling me is that 93% of the people in the world were brainwashed to believe in whatever god they believe in and are too gullible to think for themselves.

And if the greatest obstacle to true belief is that the vast majority of people already have a religion, that again suggests that your god is rather weak and ineffectual. The method that's being used to enlighten people to the truth clearly doesn't work very well. And that suggests that this god isn't really all that interested in having people believe in it.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
The Messenger for this age is Baha’u’llah but none of the rest of what you said is true.
....the rest is true........

Baha’i World? Government office? There is no such world, except in your imagination.
Bahauallah layed down the foundations for a Bahai World Order, controlled by Local, National and World Houses of Justice, all occupied by Bahais, and none but Bahais can be voted for or vote.

God does not communicate to Baha’is or anyone else directly. People can imagine that God is communicating to them if they want to.
Bahai believes that when these Houses of Justice (known at this time as spiritual assemblies) together, that they are spiritually 'connected' or 'guided' .......... what did you think 'spiritual assembly' meant?

How dare you speak for me and what I meant by what I said.
Yes, there are plenty of people who have listened to the anti-Baha’i propaganda, the lies people tell about the Baha’i Faith.
I wrote in my post about Bahai, and I dare because I know enough about Bahai to be extremely suspicious about it.
And I have reason to believe that Bahai has been deceptive about its true purposes.

Baha’is are not even allowed to participate in politics so that is virtually impossible.
Not true........ Bahais won't take part in any politics BUT THEIR OWN, and with enough Bahais in an area then Bahais could control through their spiritual assemblies which one day would become Houses of Justice, with their own legislation, laws, punishments, civil law and everything else.

So your ideas about impossible are not true.

[QUOTE]“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii [/QUOTE]
Lots of words which totally avoid mention of Bahai laws, Courts, Police Forces, Houses of Justice, voting rights........ Bahai cloaks its true intentions with 'lots of words' which evade the issues and questions.

So I dare to make mention of this.........
 

PureX

Veteran Member
So if I REQUIRE verifiable evidence in order to believe in a god and this god is NOT going to provide me with verifiable evidence, that means I am NOT capable of believing in this god.
Except, of course, that you are capable of changing your requirements. And it's only your unwillingness to do so that is making you "incapable".
I call you gullible because you are willing to believe in things without verifiable evidence. And the vast majority of people in the world are gullible, because as you said, they believe in whatever god they were raised to believe in, NOT because they have evidence to back up their beliefs. So when you claim that 93% of people believe in god, all you are telling me is that 93% of the people in the world were brainwashed to believe in whatever god they believe in and are too gullible to think for themselves.
Unfortunately, you've fallen into a false dichotomy, here. As no one knows how many people believe whatever they believe about God because the idea was handed to them, and they never bothered to question it, or because they have questioned it, in depth, and found it to be a valuable ideal for them to continue believing in. Some people are gullible fools who have allowed themselves to be "brainwashed" through intellectual neglect. But others are not. And they have given far more thought to the question than you have, and then have determined that, for them, faith in 'God X' is the most logical and positively effective choice.

I'm all for skepticism, but skepticism without an understanding of the value and necessity for faith is just another form of self-blinding ignorance. No different from the "brainwashing" you are accusing so many others of accepting.
And if the greatest obstacle to true belief is that the vast majority of people already have a religion, that again suggests that your god is rather weak and ineffectual. The method that's being used to enlighten people to the truth clearly doesn't work very well. And that suggests that this god isn't really all that interested in having people believe in it.
Something we can agree on. I see no logical reason why an entity such as we humans generally define as "God" would care in the least what we believe about it, or anything else.
 
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