Problems with the Trinity

[rrobs]

It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
​

Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

 

[David1967]

And, why would Jesus pray to Himself. To be clear, I am not making light of the Trinitarian doctrine, but it certainly has some difficulties to say the least.

 

[74x12]

It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
​

Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

*Disclaimer, I'm not trinitarian, but Jesus is God.

Jesus is the Messiah which means anointed. The Messiah is primarily a human being. God came in human form to take the power He had promised to mankind to use it on our behalf to save us. This is why God first of all promised power to mankind(the power of the Messiah) and then took it for Himself in human form. It was for our sakes.

 

[Skwim]

I wasn't aware anyone accepted the trinity as Biblical. I thought all of them regarded it as a theological conclusion.


.

 

[rrobs]

I wasn't aware anyone accepted the trinity as Biblical. I thought all of them regarded it as a theological conclusion.
.

Almost all denominations I know of say you can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the trinity. For the most part it is considered the absolute foundation of Christianity by the churches.

It's not much of a foundation though. It makes the Bible story pretty much unintelligible. There are many holes in the belief. I just picked one in my post.

 

[rrobs]

And, why would Jesus pray to Himself. To be clear, I am not making light of the Trinitarian doctrine, but it certainly has some difficulties to say the least.

Good point. Why would Jesus have prayed to God to remove the cup from him in the Garden of Gethsemane? If he were God, he could have just done it himself.

Luke 22:42,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
​

God has two different wills? Oh uh. We are in real trouble now! Does our God have a multiple personality disorder?

 

[RedDragon94]

Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

Maybe he did, maybe an anointing is like a minister's ordination. It was for a specific purpose. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit as King of Israel and suffering Messiah.

 

[rrobs]

Maybe he did, maybe an anointing is like a minister's ordination. It was for a specific purpose. Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit as King of Israel and suffering Messiah.

It is clear Jesus was anointed by God for the exact reason you cited. But just look at the verse carefully form a simple grimmer perspective. We have a subject, God who did the anointing, and a direct object, Jesus who was anointed. By even the slightest sliver of logic, we have two different actors here. It didn't say God anointed himself, but another person altogether.

 

[RedDragon94]

It is clear Jesus was anointed by God for the exact reason you cited. But just look at the verse carefully form a simple grimmer perspective. We have a subject, God who did the anointing, and a direct object, Jesus who was anointed. By even the slightest sliver of logic, we have two different actors here. It didn't say God anointed himself, but another person altogether.

One God, three persons.

 

[rrobs]

One God, three persons.

Mark 10:18,

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me (Jesus) good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
​

So is God good or isn't he?

Mark 13:32,

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
​

So does God know or doesn't he know?

Aren't they supposed to share the same nature and substance? Aren't they supposed to be equal? The scriptures don't seem to support either of these assertions in any way whatsoever.

Jesus is our Lord, our Saviour, our redeemer and much more, but he is not God. There is one God and he is not 3 in 1 oil. God is the father of Jesus. Again, the smallest iota of logic dictates that a son is not his own father. The idea is not only ridiculous, but it ruins the whole story of redemption.

I don't know for the life of me why it is considered essential that Jesus even be God. All it does is ruin a good story. It makes way more sense to keep each in their correct place. God is the father and Jesus is his son.

 

[RedDragon94]

neither the Son, but the Father.
So does God know or doesn't he know?

What that tells me is one member of the Trinity can know something that the other doesn't.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me (Jesus) good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
So is God good or isn't he?

Oh he is. If you read the context of that verse, it becomes clear that Jesus is trying to tell the random guy that he's more than a good teacher.

I feel like I've proven my point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It seems there are many problems caused by accepting the trinity as Biblical. For example;

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
​

Why would God have to anoint Himself with holy spirit and with power? If Jesus were God, would he have not already had holy spirit and power?

Because he annoined the human incarnation of his message of salvation as so to bless those who take the offer to be saved.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

And, why would Jesus pray to Himself. To be clear, I am not making light of the Trinitarian doctrine, but it certainly has some difficulties to say the least.

He's praying to his father that he, himself, as an incarnation of his father's message of salvation would be done by jesus as his father wanted of him.

Trinitarians cant tell the difference between the father and his message of salvation. The incarnation is seen the same as the source. So he isnt praying to himself as god, but to fulfill the message his father gave him (message and source are one and the same)

 

[rrobs]

Because he annoined the human incarnation of his message of salvation as so to bless those who take the offer to be saved.

If you are right we need to do a few edits to the book of Acts.

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth, the human incarnation of his message, with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
​

That phrase about human incarnation comes from the churches. There is no scriptural support for it anywhere in the book itself. You have to go outside of scripture to man's writings to find that phraseology.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you are right we need to do a few edits to the book of Acts.

Acts 10:38,

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth, the human incarnation of his message, with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
​

That phrase about human incarnation comes from the churches. There is no scriptural support for it anywhere in the book itself. You have to go outside of scripture to man's writings to find that phraseology.

Image of and representation of also means incarnation. Youd have to get rid of Hebrews (and probably other books) for what you said to be true. The bible doesnt use specific words you all look for. The context is there. The specific words are not.

 

[rrobs]

He's praying to his father that he, himself, as an incarnation of his father's message of salvation would be done by jesus as his father wanted of him.

Trinitarians cant tell the difference between the father and his message of salvation. The incarnation is seen the same as the source. So he isnt praying to himself as god, but to fulfill the message his father gave him (message and source are one and the same)

Well, that's way more convoluted that just accepting that God is the father of his son, Jesus Christ and therefore, like all father and sons, are two different people. One person praying to another is as simple as it gets.

 

[sojourner]

Mark 10:18,

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me (Jesus) good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
​

So is God good or isn't he?

Mark 13:32,

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
​

So does God know or doesn't he know?

Aren't they supposed to share the same nature and substance? Aren't they supposed to be equal? The scriptures don't seem to support either of these assertions in any way whatsoever.

Jesus is our Lord, our Saviour, our redeemer and much more, but he is not God. There is one God and he is not 3 in 1 oil. God is the father of Jesus. Again, the smallest iota of logic dictates that a son is not his own father. The idea is not only ridiculous, but it ruins the whole story of redemption.

I don't know for the life of me why it is considered essential that Jesus even be God. All it does is ruin a good story. It makes way more sense to keep each in their correct place. God is the father and Jesus is his son.

You’re thinking on the literal level here. You need to think on the symbolic and mythic levels when reading theologically. Theology crosses boundaries of logic and makes its case in the imaginative.

 

[rrobs]

Imagr of and representation of also means incarnation. Youd have to get rid of Hebrews (and probably other books) for what you said to be true. The bible doesnt use specific words you all lool for. The context is there. The specific words are not.

What part of Hebrews would have to go if Jesus was the son of God and not God himself?

 

[RedDragon94]

Imagr of and representation of also means incarnation. Youd have to get rid of Hebrews (and probably other books) for what you said to be true. The bible doesnt use specific words you all lool for. The context is there. The specific words are not.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Yup, the Church created the term Trinity to show that the Bible teaches God is a community. That has serious (and cool) implications for theology.

 

[rrobs]

You’re thinking on the literal level here. You need to think on the symbolic and mythic levels when reading theologically. Theology crosses boundaries of logic and makes its case in the imaginative.

I guess anything goes with myths. Once the churches got people to accept myth as reality anything is on the table as far as doctrine is concerned. No need for anything to make sense. Logic goes out the door.