Why Evolution and Christianity are Fundamentally Irreconcilable

[Cassandra]

Actually, the Religious Right creates false dichotomies in order to stir the pot. For example, there are many in the Religious Right who will insist Real Christians do not, should not believe in evolution.

In truth, many Christians do believe in evolution, a point often made by moderate Christians and atheists alike.

So let them

 

[ecco]

I think, further, that our ability to reduce complex issues to soundbytes we can easily consume, ... is a fundamental consideration in all this.

We do indeed live in a time of sound bites;

• Tough on crime
• Weak on defense
• Build the wall
• Bring back the mines
• Make America great again
• Fake news

The question that needs to be asked is why do people believe complex issues can be reduced to catch phrases? My answer is that it goes back to early childhood indoctrination. GodDidIt.

 

[ecco]

If Evolution is true, then a new Evolution occurred after every extincted epoch.

Nope, just one very long, complex evolution.

 

[shunyadragon]

If Evolution is true, then a new Evolution occurred after every extincted epoch.

False, big time. The evidence for evolution is a continuous changing process regardless of epoch. The species that survived were evolving and changing before each mass extinction, and some became dominant after the mass extinction that is often used as a marker for a change from one period of Geologic time to another. For example: The mammals were common in great diversity of species and their antecedents were through out the time the dinosaurs dominated the earth.

 

[dfnj]

Since creation "scientists" tend to be a rather cowardly, not to mention incompetent and . . ., lot they will not put their concepts into a testable form. Therefore their ideas by definition have no evidence for them and are not even scientific hypotheses. Creationism is not a theory, at best it is a self contradictory ad hoc explanation.

You sure get away with making a lot of mean comments about people here. I wish I could get away with saying people posting here are "cowardly" and "incompetent".

So in cosmology and theories about the Universe which cannot be put into "testable form" are bad science? I think what this really comes down to is subjective judgments on your part, that is opinions, on what is "good" science and what is "bad" science. You just think your opinions are better than certain other people.

Intelligent design may be bad science but it's a pretty creative idea. I tend not to think it's true because the design of my own body has so many flaws and imperfections that give me so much pain it's hard for me to accept my body's design was done on purpose.

 

[dfnj]

no, Scientists don't. Time is a physically measured quantity but one which is relative to other measured quantities. Its not axiomatic but experiential.

No, time is completely arbitrary. Man chooses when time starts and stops. Time is not a property of nature. Time doesn't exist anywhere in nature. It's purely an invention of man's imagination like the Flying Spaghetti monster.

 

[Audie]

If Evolution is true, then a new Evolution occurred after every extincted epoch.

There have been several mass extinctions, and many lesser
waves of extinctions. The survivors just kept on going.

 

[dfnj]

• Time exists independent of man. Gods do not exist independent of man.
• Time existed before man. Man's imaginings created gods.
• Man can measure time and use it in mathematical formulas. Man cannot measure gods. Gods are not used in mathematical formulas.

Time is completely arbitrary. Man decides when time starts and stops. Time doesn't exist anywhere in nature. Time is not something you can hold in your hand like an apple. Time is imaginary. Time only exists in our imagination like the Flying Spaghetti monster.

 

[Audie]

You sure get away with making a lot of mean comments about people here. I wish I could get away with saying people posting here are "cowardly" and "incompetent".

So in cosmology and theories about the Universe which cannot be put into "testable form" are bad science? I think what this really comes down to is subjective judgments on your part, that is opinions, on what is "good" science and what is "bad" science. You just think your opinions are better than certain other people.

Intelligent design may be bad science but it's a pretty creative idea. I tend not to think it's true because the design of my own body has so many flaws and imperfections that give me so much pain it's hard for me to accept my body's design was done on purpose.

I dont see that cowardly applies, but incompetent? Maybe.
I would not use the word, I'd go with "dishonest".

Show me a a creationist who is well informed and intellectually
honest and I will show you someone in line for the Nobel,
as possibly the greatest scientist of all time.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Good point about Science, at least as properly and morally practiced.

no, Scientists don't. Time is a physically measured quantity but one which is relative to other measured quantities. Its not axiomatic but experiential.
they are not fundamentally irreconcileable but fundamentalism and childish literalism is irreconcileable with almost any reality we experience I think.
...yes although there really are many churches in the USA where creationism is preached, and this is inexcusable I think. Its not Ok to use pseudo science to prop up a ministry, a faith claim, a view of the Bible. Those few who say "I oppose Science." are being honest, but that is not what has been happening. Instead they claim to support Science as that is popular and to claim Science must support their claims. At the expense of the education of children they do it.

Its a terrible thing.

True.

All science, mathematics and logic does ultimately rest on unprovable axioms. They're very, very far down, though, and appear to be true as far as we can test them.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Time is completely arbitrary. Man decides when time starts and stops. Time doesn't exist anywhere in nature. Time is not something you can hold in your hand like an apple. Time is imaginary. Time only exists in our imagination like the Flying Spaghetti monster.

Not true. We know time exists in nature, because without it, entropy could not increase. We know entropy increases from observation, therefore time exists.

What does not exist is a universal, experiential "now".

 

[Audie]

You basically wrote if you consider creationism a theory you are not intelligent, because lack of understanding of something is generally associated with lack of intelligence, not lack of knowledge. It is interpreted differently from
"no intelligent person, WHO IS WELL INFORMED WHAT A THEORY IS, ..."

You seem to hold the view that the implications of words depend wholly on intend, not on how people perceive one's words. Then when interpreted negatively, you see that as a personal attack to which you react by taking on the role of the insulted. Hmmm. That actually is like their thinking.

In my experience even the people out to deceive and feeling pleasure in that are still trapped in their own lies. You can not take that path and not lower you consciousness. But then you are talking about 1-2% psychopaths. Once you start attacking widely held religious views you actually provide them with a cover to create conflict from.

A compromise is not necessarily finding a common view. A compromise can also be to let the matter rest, or accept differences of views. Let's agree to disagree. If fundamentalist persist on pushing their views, one can ridicule them in a good humored manner (not in a sarcastic manner). The Bible does not say for nothing that there is one thing the Holly Spirit does not forgive, and that is being ridiculed. Because believers love to be attacked, insulted, chastised. That only fulfills the prophecies of the Bible. To feel victim, makes them feel worthy servants of their God. It gives them a challenge ("We shall overcome"). That is why they actually seek being ridiculed and attacked. They invite people to do that by attacking them first. They want to be hated. They love that. No one is a sadist without being a masochist.

Good humored fun makes them powerless. Read the Bible, it is totally humorless. It is a book that prepares people for conflict. It makes them experts in conflict. It is very easy to win the debate on reason and lose the popular vote. To win the popular vote one should not be seen as aggressor. No matter how much one is provoked, one then loses because they play a home game for their people. They may not be scientists but they can sell second hand cars without brakes better than anyone else. They know how to play peoples emotions. The Bible uses emotional arguments, not reason. It is created by tradesmen. Tradesmen know what arguments convince.

Just a question I am interested in. Do you think the confrontational attitude of the left actually helped achieving a more reasonable thinking, or sped up acceptance of more reasonable scientific views? Do you think American politics is improving as a result. Or do the left volunteer to play the role of the enemy of God, the enemy fundamentalists so bitterly seek and need?

You are choosing to put words in my mouth and wildly
overinterpret what I said. Plus, you wont accept
my correction of what you thought. What is with that?

Then off babbling about psychopaths, adding more (insulting)
nonsense towhat you'd already made up about me, and, of course, not
addressing any of my questions or the topic.

No informed person thinks that creationism is a theory.

Oh, on "enemy of God". Wherever that comes from, or
how it might possibly relate.

Your fundies do far more to discredit Christianity than I
ever could, or would care to do. I am fine with Christians
and Christianity, you guys can do your stuff all you like.

Some among you tho-if I believed in Satan, I would
wonder if he is not who they are following, however unwittingly.

The things people say trying to fight science and defend their
"faith" certainly would suggest the o'' deceiver is behind it.

Now, do you understand that no informed person thinks
creationism is a theory, or not?

 

[Audie]

Everything in your 401K was put there LastThursday.

not so bad. it sure grew fast!

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You are choosing to put words in my mouth and wildly overinterpret what I said. Plus, you wont accept
my correction of what you thought. What is with that?

Then off babbling about psychopaths, adding more nonsense to
what you'd already made up about me, and, of course, not
addressing any of my questions or the topic.

No informed person thinks that creationism is a theory.

Oh, on "enemy of God". Wherever that comes from, or how it might possibly relate.

Your fundies do far more to discredit Christianity than I
ever could, or would care to do. i am fine with Christians
and Christianity, you guys can do your stuff all you like.

Some among you tho-if I believed in Satan, I would
wonder if he is not who they are following, however unwittingly.

The things people say trying to fight science and defend their
"faith" certainly would suggest the o'' deceiver is behind it.

Now, do you understand that no informed person thinks
creationism is a theory, or not?

Technically, Creationism IS a theory, just an extremely flawed one that has been thoroughly discredited. Like Lamarckism, Phlogiston and Lysenkoism. They're still theories,just ones thoroughly discredited by evidence and their utter lack of predictive power.

 

[Audie]

Technically, Creationism IS a theory, just an extremely flawed one that has been thoroughly discredited. Like Lamarckism, Phlogiston and Lysenkoism. They're still theories.

Oh? How do your figure it is technically a theory?

(while I quickly backpedal and consider if my actual
point was that it is nonsense to class ToE and
creationism as both being theories and therefore some way equivalent)

 

[ecco]

The Greek philosophers won the debate and lost the war, their ideas were suppressed for a thousand of years. One of the reasons was that they undermined their own religion.

The Greek Philosophers did not lose the war. The Roman army defeated the Greek army. The Roman army destroyed the Greek libraries. It had nothing to do with anyone undermining their own religious views.

If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

 

[ecco]

Actually, the Religious Right creates false dichotomies in order to stir the pot. For example, there are many in the Religious Right who will insist Real Christians do not, should not believe in evolution.

In truth, many Christians do believe in evolution, a point often made by moderate Christians and atheists alike.

So let them

So let them what?

 

[ecco]

• Time exists independent of man. Gods do not exist independent of man.

• Time existed before man. Man's imaginings created gods.

• Man can measure time and use it in mathematical formulas. Man cannot measure gods. Gods are not used in mathematical formulas.

Time is completely arbitrary. Man decides when time starts and stops. Time doesn't exist anywhere in nature.

If you said man's measurements of time are arbitrary, you would be correct.

Science says, and has mathematically proven, that time exists and has always existed.

Time is not something you can hold in your hand like an apple. Time is imaginary.

You cannot hold in your hand one of the other three dimensions. Your analogy is meaningless.

Time only exists in our imagination like the Flying Spaghetti monster.

The FSM is as real as your god. Well, let me clarify, the FSM and your god are both just the products of man's imaginings.

 

[Cassandra]

You are choosing to put words in my mouth and wildly
overinterpret what I said. Plus, you wont accept
my correction of what you thought. What is with that?

Then off babbling about psychopaths, adding more (insulting)
nonsense towhat you'd already made up about me, and, of course, not
addressing any of my questions or the topic.

No informed person thinks that creationism is a theory.

Oh, on "enemy of God". Wherever that comes from, or
how it might possibly relate.

Your fundies do far more to discredit Christianity than I
ever could, or would care to do. I am fine with Christians
and Christianity, you guys can do your stuff all you like.

Some among you tho-if I believed in Satan, I would
wonder if he is not who they are following, however unwittingly.

The things people say trying to fight science and defend their
"faith" certainly would suggest the o'' deceiver is behind it.

Now, do you understand that no informed person thinks
creationism is a theory, or not?

Interesting reaction, unrelated to what I wrote.
I wonder what your real agenda is?
Antagonize people to create maximum controversy?

Something like this:
1 - Pose as someone of the other side
2 - pretend to be insulted
3 - insult people to invite them to join in
4 - go back to the own camp and say: See what they are like?

 

[Cassandra]

So let them what?

"Create false dichotomies in order to stir the pot: like insist Real Christians do not, should not believe in evolution"

I do not see why one should react to that.
If that is what they believe fine with me.
And one should never stop opponents making a fool of themselves

This obsession about what other people believe is shared by left and right