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Featured Why Evolution and Christianity are Fundamentally Irreconcilable

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Hubert Farnsworth, May 29, 2018.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    A “description of the origin of the human race” sure sounds to me like a description of factual history (or at least what the author takes to be factual history). There’s nothing in the text that supports your assumption that a “salvation history” can’t also serve some other purpose.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Unfortunate ball and chain belief based on ancient mythology.
     
  3. Vouthon

    Vouthon In varietate concordia
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    Did the Babylonian Enuma Elish concern itself with the origins of the human race? Most certainly. Was it an attempt at history akin to the Greek Herodotus' chronicle of the Persians Wars? No, because it was the fruit of a rich, symbolic worldview grounded in religious lore and the received wisdom of the ancients.

    I don't know what kind of historiography you are familiar with or enjoy reading but I highly doubt that if it was intended to be a factual account that it would consist of "metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of a people but little cultured [to] state the principal truths which are fundamental for our salvation".

    I can really say nothing more if you wish to labour the point, given that I simply disagree with you.
     
  4. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Ah, ya poor sweet darlin', you forgot to put away acorns for winter.
     
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  5. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Frightfully aggressive and uncompromizin' of ya.
     
  6. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    You missed it. We are now in @dfnj 's world of Last Thursdayism. I assume that you thought that you deposited your money before last Thursday.
     
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  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Oh yah, missing my own joke. Good grief.
     
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  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I am the dark side of Irish when it comes to this, and do not mince words.
     
  9. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Irish..prolly part Neander. :D

    Go forth, and mince ye opponents,
    not words.
     
  10. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Let me try to help here. I didn't read your entire post, it was too long. She did not say that anyone that thought creationism was a theory was not intelligent.

    She said that anyone that understood the concept of a theory, and in context it was rather obvious that she meant a scientific theory, and thought creationism was a theory could not be very intelligent.

    You may have taken offense because you incorrectly thought that you knew what a theory is. I am betting that you don't. A scientific theory is an explanation for a rather broad range of phenomena that is well supported by scientific evidence and has been repeatedly tested and confirmed.

    Since creation "scientists" tend to be a rather cowardly, not to mention incompetent and . . ., lot they will not put their concepts into a testable form. Therefore their ideas by definition have no evidence for them and are not even scientific hypotheses. Creationism is not a theory, at best it is a self contradictory ad hoc explanation.

    There are many intelligent people that do not know what a theory is. You appear to be one of them.
     
  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Yep! DNA part Neanderthal!
     
  12. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Phhht....
    1) Those same farmers, who created more modern, edible corn strains, were Creationist of various religious backgrounds (I would suggest mostly polytheists). They didn't associate cross-pollination of plants with the evolution of species from common ancestry.

    2) Even if they did, what of it? Evolution is a scientific theory, not a narrative. That remains true even if scientific method was not discovered at the time people used trial and error to discover and use knowledge.
     
  13. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    True facts are rarer than most believe, I would agree, but that doesn't make everything else 'narrative'.

    And this has nothing to do with 'consciousness'.
     
  14. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    I'll skip the rest of the post, but I've found myself thinking about this also.
    For me, the context was a little different, and was more around the impact of anti-theism, and more specifically some 'atheist' subcultures, like New Atheism, and also more organised or coherent atheist groups, like the American Atheists.

    It's an ongoing process for me (considering this) so I won't pretend I have any answers. But I do think that (for various reasons) the encouragement of resistance is not limited to the right wing responding to the left. It appears more universal.

    Indeed, Trump's campaign messaging was heavily reactionary, as was the formation of the Tea Party, but there are mass appeal based left wing movements as well.

    So whatever the reason for this, I get the impression that reactionary political movement, and partisan beliefs is more pronounced now across many dichotomous relationships. I think we see things increasingly as a choice between 2 extremes, and too commonly lack nuance. I think, further, that our ability to reduce complex issues to soundbytes we can easily consume, and our choice in content being more tightly reflective of our pre-existing beliefs is a fundamental consideration in all this.

    At a personal level, I try to read multiple sources on issues, and try to include slightly left/right views (I'm not terribly interested in unnuanced jingoism, although it depends on the issue).

    Anyway...my thoughts on your question, for what it's worth.
     
  15. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that sounds likely.

    In fact the major denominations of at least Western Christianity in Europe have never stressed biblical "inerrancy" and most certainly have never taken 100% of it literally. For instance the Wiki article on inerrancy has this to say:


    "Inerrancy has been much more of an issue in American evangelicalism than in British evangelicalism.[7]According to Stephen R. Holmes, it "plays almost no role in British evangelical life".[8]"

    However in fact, as I have had occasion to point out several times elsewhere on this forum, even back in 200AD the early Christians did not read the bible literally! Origen himself saw Genesis as an allegorical myth, to be read in the same spirit as Homer. This is how the Jews of that time read it too.

    Biblical literalism is largely a c.19th invention, heavily promoted in the US by Seventh Day Adventists and similar sects. It's an idea that is extraordinarily difficult to make work even within scripture itself, due to the inconsistencies, let alone in the wider contexts of literature, history and - latterly - science.
     
  16. david-david

    david-david Member

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    If Evolution is true, then a new Evolution occurred after every extincted epoch.
     
  17. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    One gets the impression of a party playing football against a party playing tennis. If you understand fundamentalist religion as I do, it is very much based on "us against the rest". "Jews against all non-Jews", "believers against all non-believers". These people are survivalists waiting for the day of reckoning. Every generation they predict the end of the world. That is why they seek war as a fulfillment of prophecies. And constant conflict serves another purpose. In war time the ranks are closed, and internal opposition can be silenced. There is less room for internal divide.

    In my country we have the same bible belt, but there is no public discussion. Every time fundamentalists bring their ideas, people start laughing, and they quickly retreat. They actually shun debate these days. Their thinking is contained within their circles. Laws are made they do not like, but no one is bringing the war home to them.

    One can win every debate, and still lose the war. The Greek philosophers won the debate and lost the war, their ideas were suppressed for a thousand of years. One of the reasons was that they undermined their own religion. if one indiscriminately attacks religion both the moderate and the fundamentalist, the fundamentalist, no longer moderated, grow in power. Look at American politics, the power of fundamentalist has been growing consistently. American people increasingly seek emotional in stead of factual truth. Moderates allowed this to become a war without realizing that in war time reason and moderation are the first casualties.
     
    #117 Cassandra, May 31, 2018
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
  18. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Everything in your 401K was put there LastThursday.
     
  19. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the Religious Right creates false dichotomies in order to stir the pot. For example, there are many in the Religious Right who will insist Real Christians do not, should not believe in evolution.

    In truth, many Christians do believe in evolution, a point often made by moderate Christians and atheists alike.
     
  20. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    A person, intelligent or not, may be ignorant of what a scientific theory is. Perhaps, regarding things scientific, they are just uneducated.

    However, many people would be just as upset being labelled ignorant as they would be being labelled uneducated or unintelligent.

    That being said, most people who still insist that "ToE is only a theory", are neither unintelligent, uneducated nor ignorant. Therefore, there must be another option. Perhaps, they are just liars defending the faith.
     
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