For creationists: Show evidences for creation of man

[Synene]

What make you think it was Ramesses ruling at the time of Moses' exodus?

The Qur'an provide no dates to when the exodus out of Egypt took place, nor the name of the king.

The Bible do provide dates, but it is still not easy to pinpoint it, since it doesn't match historical records and archaeological evidences, and like the Qur'an provide no name as to the Egyptian king.

For instance, in 1 Kings 6:1, when Solomon started building his temple (in the 4th year of his reign), it say that 480 years had passed since Moses liberated and led the Israelite out of Egypt. Assuming that Solomon is a real king, his temple building project would have started in 967 BCE. Adding 480 years to 967 BCE, will get you 1447 BCE.

1447 BCE is too early for Ramesses II, who reigned between 1279 and 1213. Ramesses II belonged to the 19th dynasty. 1447 BCE would put it in the reign of Thutmose III, reign 1479 to 1425 BCE, 18th dynasty.

All anyone can do, is speculate, who was king of Egypt at that time.

But the other possibility is that both the Bible and Qur'an are just myths. In that case, no evidences are possible, since Moses didn't exist.

What good is that? You're basically saying God put into the Koran these cryptic hints about future discoveries and knowledge, that no one would understand until after scientists have figured it out.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.

Why not think twice before rushing to your keyboard and type the true nonsense that doesnt help any one searching the trueth.

The story of mosess isn't some thing that you can't think of looking for any indicator that could lead us to some evidences that can possibility of occurence of such an event in the past.

The storry at least tells us about a group(Mosess and his people) escaping from an other group(pharohs team) that used to opress the esraeli people at the time of their stay in egypt.

Well, quran narrates that Allah miracleaously orders the sea to temporarily get devided(some how) in order to help the people safely get out of reach of their enemies. Quran further explains about a sudden reset of the sea when Mosses and his people gets safe exit and at the same time, pharoh and his troops where in the middle of the sea and all ended up engulphed by the sea after the temporary passage was suddenly disturbed by the turbulent water.

Hence I can dare to say, the way that event happened could leave behind a lot of remains and foot prints, that could be analysed in search of evidences for the occurance of such an event. There is a possibility to find some kind of geological disturbances(some where in that area) like a concave/convex trench that could posibily indicate some sort of route, plus the possibility of finding remains of armaments that were caried by the troops and even remains of the carts and any other part of transport fascilities used by that time. Even the golden wheals and spears of pharoh could be found too.... My 2cents.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why not think twice before rushing to your keyboard and type the true non sense that doesnt help any searching the trueth.

The story of mosess isn't some thing that you can't think of looking for any indicator that could lead us to some evidences that can possibility of occurence of such an event in the past.

The storry at least tells us about a group(Mosess and his people) escaping from an other group(pharohs team) that used to opress the esraeli people at the time of their stay in egypt.

Well, quran narrates that Allah miracleaously orders the sea to temporarily get devided in order to help the people safely get out of reach of their enemies. Quran further explains about a sudden reset of the sea when the Mosses and his people gets safe exit and at the same time, pharoh and his troops where in the middle of the sea and all ended up engulphed by the sea after the temporary passage was suddenly disturbed by the turbulent water.

Hence I can dare to say, the way that event happened could leave behind a lot of remains and foot prints, that could be analysed in search of evidences for the occurance of such an event. There is a possibility to find some kind of geological disturbances(some where in that area) like a concave/convex trench that could posibily indicate some sort of route, plus the possibility of finding remains of armaments that were caried by the troops and even remains of the carts and any other part of transport fascilities used by that time. Even the golden wheals and spears of pharoh could be found too.... My 2cents.

One of the reasons that we know that the Moses story is fiction is that roughly 2 million people traipsing through the desert would leave massive evidence and yet there is none for this event.

Pointing to a failure of the Old Testament does not help the Quran in any way, especially when the Quran takes on the same failure for itself.

 

[Synene]

One of the reasons that we know that the Moses story is fiction is that roughly 2 million people traipsing through the desert would leave massive evidence and yet there is none for this event.

Pointing to a failure of the Old Testament does not help the Quran in any way, especially when the Quran takes on the same failure for itself.

Not by any means had the intention to point twards the failurity of the old testament. never had that intention!!
This actually shows your ignorance about facts and the things you are trying to deffend. Shear offence is a sign of emptiness.

we muslims are obliged to believe in the origional undisturbed scriptures of Allah The Torah(Prophet Moses a.s), psalms(prophet Daud/David a.s), Gospel(prophet Issa/Jesus a.s) and the final revelation Quran(prophet mohamed s.a.w) which has all the information of old scriptures above and fullfilments of revelations and the conclusions to all.

So be informed that what I say above was in referance to the latest revelation in quran which is fullfilment of the old scriptures. The same source(Allah),, but the old books did not retain their orrigional contents as you know.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not by any means had the intention to point twards the failurity of the old testament. never had that intention!!
This actually shows your ignorance about facts and the things you are trying to deffend. Shear offence is a sign of emptiness.

we muslims are obliged to believe in the origional undisturbed scriptures of Allah The Torah(Prophet Moses a.s), psalms(prophet Daud/David a.s), Gospel(prophet Issa/Jesus a.s) and the final revelation Quran(prophet mohamed s.a.w) which has all the information of old scriptures above and fullfilments of revelations and the conclusions to all.

So be informed that what I say above was in referance to the latest revelation in quran which is fullfilment of the old scriptures. The same source(Allah),, but the old books did not retain their orrigional contents as you know.

You are not paying attention and you call others ignorant. That is rather amazing. You told us that the Quran failed by telling us that it has the myth of Moses in it. You also claimed that you are required to believe falsehoods. Why on Earth would a religion require you to believe falsehoods?

 

[gnostic]

The story of mosess isn't some thing that you can't think of looking for any indicator that could lead us to some evidences that can possibility of occurence of such an event in the past.

There should be evidences, if the story of Moses is true.

As Subduction Zero pointed out, a whole race dwelled in the wilderness for 40 years. With such large population, it should leave trace of their existences.

But no such evidences exist, just as that there are no evidences that the Israelites were living in Egypt as slaves after Jacob, and their mass liberation by Moses.

And considering that 1 Kings 6:1 have the supposed date to the day of mass liberation, that contradict everything we do know about Egyptian history, it is most highly probable that Moses’ story is a myth, which also mean the Qur’an version of Moses is also a myth.

 

[ecco]

Here are the direct words of those scientists who are not so cynical to appreciate the world out side their box
<snip>

The only possible answer is that this Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him.
https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-h.htm

Another long boring cut and paste. Synene, is this really the best you can do - cut and paste?

Cutting and pasting with no original thought or comments of your own is a poor way to try to make an argument.

Cutting and pasting from very biased religious sources is not very convincing. Especially in light of...

Lying for Allah - Islamic Fraud • Skeptical Science

Islam is the only world religion which allows, encourages, and even demands lying by its followers. Lying for Islam is generally referred to as Taqiyya (تقي).

There are many verses in the Qur’an which condone lying and deception, and several classical and contemporary Sunni scholars have validated its place within main-stream Islam.

In sahih (authentic) hadith, Muhammad admits to being a liar and advises it's acceptable for Muslims to do likewise, allowing his followers to use deception to silence critics.

With all things considered, the simple fact is Islamic teachings as a whole breed dishonesty like no other religion and even elevates it to a holy status.
​

I'll remind you again that the world knew about sperm long before Mohammed. That fact, together with your interpretations and defense of Quranic verses, proves how deceitful you and your religion are.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Another long boring cut and paste. Synene, is this really the best you can do - cut and paste?

Cutting and pasting with no original thought or comments of your own is a poor way to try to make an argument.

Cutting and pasting from very biased religious sources is not very convincing. Especially in light of...

Lying for Allah - Islamic Fraud • Skeptical Science

Islam is the only world religion which allows, encourages, and even demands lying by its followers. Lying for Islam is generally referred to as Taqiyya (تقي).

There are many verses in the Qur’an which condone lying and deception, and several classical and contemporary Sunni scholars have validated its place within main-stream Islam.

In sahih (authentic) hadith, Muhammad admits to being a liar and advises it's acceptable for Muslims to do likewise, allowing his followers to use deception to silence critics.

With all things considered, the simple fact is Islamic teachings as a whole breed dishonesty like no other religion and even elevates it to a holy status.
​

I'll remind you again that the world knew about sperm long before Mohammed. That fact, together with your interpretations and defense of Quranic verses, proves how deceitful you and your religion are.

There are Christians that have no shame when they lie for Jesus. The whole filed of "apologetics" is pretty much that. When backed into a corner they will try to claim the Bible does not mean what it clearly says, even if one goes back to the original Hebrew or Aramaic. Both sides seem to think that they are serving a "deeper truth" that excuses their lies.

 

[ecco]

4) Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.” And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.”

The above is an excellent example of the lies being presented here. Here...

...is a 16 minute video of Dr Hay, carefully and in detail, explaining how his comments were taken out of context and carefully edited by Muslims. Hay clearly states that the information revealed in the Quran was known as far back as the Vikings.

I didn't bother to investigate any of the other claims in Synene's post. I just took the Hay comment randomly. If, in a matter of moments, I can find the truth about Hay's comments, then certainly Synene could have done the same had he chosen to. However, in the manner of religious apologists, Synene posted comments that he knew, or should have known, are completely false.

Synene, if you have to lie to make your argument, then it's clear that you don't have an argument. All you have is just more religious BS.

 

[Jose Fly]

Why not think twice before rushing to your keyboard and type the true nonsense that doesnt help any one searching the trueth.

This is what you wrote: "This Holly book is not only for the 21st century use, it is intended by Allah to be the guide(manual) of human beings untill the end of time. and I am agreement that the information is accurate, but some how blurry untill it is researched by scientists".

That's what I responded to.

The story of mosess isn't some thing that you can't think of looking for any indicator that could lead us to some evidences that can possibility of occurence of such an event in the past.

The storry at least tells us about a group(Mosess and his people) escaping from an other group(pharohs team) that used to opress the esraeli people at the time of their stay in egypt.

Well, quran narrates that Allah miracleaously orders the sea to temporarily get devided(some how) in order to help the people safely get out of reach of their enemies. Quran further explains about a sudden reset of the sea when Mosses and his people gets safe exit and at the same time, pharoh and his troops where in the middle of the sea and all ended up engulphed by the sea after the temporary passage was suddenly disturbed by the turbulent water.

Hence I can dare to say, the way that event happened could leave behind a lot of remains and foot prints, that could be analysed in search of evidences for the occurance of such an event. There is a possibility to find some kind of geological disturbances(some where in that area) like a concave/convex trench that could posibily indicate some sort of route, plus the possibility of finding remains of armaments that were caried by the troops and even remains of the carts and any other part of transport fascilities used by that time. Even the golden wheals and spears of pharoh could be found too.... My 2cents.

And if such things aren't found, what then?

 

[Synene]

I am afraid that you guys are simply wronging your selves, There is no God but the one we unconceously call up on when we are in trouble. are you saying that you never experienced a lot of incidents that made you realize this world is in Gods full controll and we are just being tested for some thing? You can stick with what you say, but he knows what we conceal and hide deap in our hearts. GOD is present in our every day lives and he hears us all the time. Closer than our Jaguar veins, so we must have seen him through our keyboards when we right notes here on the forums.

BTW I was once too far from from where you guys are and always used to wonder. But I have seen clear evidences for my self and I am sure the Subdaction Zone is seeing too, since he is truely seaking the truth and I can share him my experience which are not a blindly belief in faith but with concrete premise and evidences so simple to test.

Challenge God with what he claims to be for us and see the responces from him. and do not deny the signs you see. He is the ultimate mover, protector.... and every move made in this universe is by his will and decree. Try to to seek the truth so you can be guided, and dont overlook the seen and the unseen but noteble aspects of this world.

Have a nice time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am afraid that you guys are simply wronging your selves, There is no God but the one we unconceously call up on when we are in trouble. are you saying that you never experienced a lot of incidents that made you realize this world is in Gods full controll and we are just being tested for some thing? You can stick with what you say, but he knows what we conceal and hide deap in our hearts. GOD is present in our every day lives and he hears us all the time. Closer than our Jaguar veins, so we must have seen him through our keyboards when we right notes here on the forums.

BTW I was once too far from from where you guys are and always used to wonder. But I have seen clear evidences for my self and I am sure the Subdaction Zone is seeing , since he is truely seaking the truth and I can share him my experience which are not a blindly belief in faith but with concrete premise and evidences so simple to test.

Challenge God with what he claims to be for us and see the responces from him. and do not deny the signs you see. He is the ultimate mover, protector.... and every move made in this universe is by his will and decree. Try to to seek the truth so you can be guided, and dont overlook the seen and the unseen but noteble aspects of this world.

Have a nice time.

I could make the same claims about you being an atheist deep in your heart.

Most atheists do not say definitively that there is no god, they simply lack a belief due to a lack of evidence for that god. For the same reasons that you probably do not believe in the Loch Ness Monster, Sasquatch, Yetis, or even universe farting pixies is that there is no reliable evidence for those beings.

But one thing that we do know is that the many errors of both the Bible and the Quran tell us that they are not the word of God.

 

[ecco]

I am afraid that you guys are simply wronging your selves, There is no God but the one we unconceously call up on when we are in trouble.

That is something I have never done. I also never called on psychic snowflakes to help me in times of troubles. Nor have I ever called on alsfjasi ewfa to help me in times of troubles.

are you saying that you never experienced a lot of incidents that made you realize this world is in Gods full controll and we are just being tested for some thing?

Nope. Never. You see, I am not superstitious.

You can stick with what you say, but he knows what we conceal and hide deap in our hearts. GOD is present in our every day lives and he hears us all the time.

Oh goody.

BTW I was once too far from from where you guys are and always used to wonder. But I have seen clear evidences for my self .

[Sarcasm] How wonderful for you. [/Sarcasm].

Challenge God with what he claims to be for us and see the responces from him. and do not deny the signs you see. He is the ultimate mover, protector.... and every move made in this universe is by his will and decree. Try to to seek the truth so you can be guided, and dont overlook the seen and the unseen but noteble aspects of this world.

Have a nice time.

I have a lot of nice times without resorting to silly superstitions.

 

[ecco]

Most atheists do not say definitively that there is no god

I do say so definitively.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do say so definitively.

That is fine. I am not going to say that you are wrong. I am merely not convinced about the non-existence of a god. But I do find it highly unlikely to say the least.

 

[ecco]

That is fine. I am not going to say that you are wrong. I am merely not convinced about the non-existence of a god. But I do find it highly unlikely to say the least.

Why "not convinced"? Gods are the creations of man's imaginings. Nothing more, nothing less.

When man began to speak and reason, someone asked the tribal leader: Oh great tribal leader, where did the first man come from.

The great tribal leader had to choose between:

1. A god made the first man.
2. I dunno.

Have you ever heard a leader say "I dunno"?

Who made the god? The god has always existed!

Variations on this scenario played out over thousands of years and thousands of cultures.




Who puts pots of gold at the end of rainbows?
Who hides colored Easter eggs?
Who delivers presents to all the good little boys and girls?

Are you "not convinced about the non-existence" of these creations of man's imaginings as well?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why "not convinced"? Gods are the creations of man's imaginings. Nothing more, nothing less.

When man began to speak and reason, someone asked the tribal leader: Oh great tribal leader, where did the first man come from.

The great tribal leader had to choose between:

1. A god made the first man.
2. I dunno.

Have you ever heard a leader say "I dunno"?

Who made the god? The god has always existed!

Variations on this scenario played out over thousands of years and thousands of cultures.




Who puts pots of gold at the end of rainbows?
Who hides colored Easter eggs?
Who delivers presents to all the good little boys and girls?

Are you "not convinced about the non-existence" of these creations of man's imaginings as well?

It is difficult to drop all the myths of one's youth.

 

[ecco]

It is difficult to drop all the myths of one's youth.

OK

 

[Synene]

That is something I have never done. I also never called on psychic snowflakes to help me in times of troubles. Nor have I ever called on alsfjasi ewfa to help me in times of troubles.


Nope. Never. You see, I am not superstitious.





Oh goody.




[Sarcasm] How wonderful for you. [/Sarcasm].



I have a lot of nice times without resorting to silly superstitions.

Oh ....and though I can feel your earier frustration regarding the bunch of believers you kicked their asses when they fail to explain their beliefs in a way that makes sense for you, and in the contrary, you your self could have been locked and never opened your mind to change your attitudes and preconceptions. You must be experiencing for sure, but it is up to one's self to pay head.

Again I am praying to get guided by the almighty, that he widens my heart and inrich me from his widom, so that I could help you understand the obvious that you duno!!

Wait.... wait...No need to pannic with ones ideas and thoughts, what ever dump they may seem to you. And I didnt like your extreme self steam that always demands you to win, and ofcourse to be the winner, you have to win your egos first. So read it and see for your self first. One must be confident enough to listen even the dumbest ideas(as you may label without actually understanding it).

I am sure you agree with me on this, as it makes more sense rather than bahave too much over confident and reject any kind of arguements and propositions without listening and analysing it a bit.
Read the Quran for yourselves, truely there are clear signs for mankind!!

The orrigional contents of all the old scriptures like Budaha, Manu scriptures(hindusm), Judaisim, christianity, islam and the like do have one thing in common. They all tell us that Allah is the creator of heavens and earth and what is in between them. Which can lead one to think, if those information where coming to men from the same source and ofcourse yes, Allah the all knowing full of wisdom. It is less likely to say Man himself has been fabricating it themseves.

Be assured that you will find yourself in the middle of an other real world exactly like this one. He who made you exist without your knowledge, can bring you back after your death. Do you have evidence that there will not be another world where men will be judged for what they did in life time?? And remember there is no "undo" button once the hour comes!!

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh ....and though I can feel your earier frustration regarding the bunch of believers you kicked their asses when they fail to explain their beliefs in a way that makes sense for you, and in the contrary, you your self could have been locked and never opened your mind to change your attitudes and preconceptions. You must be experiencing for sure, but it is up to one's self to pay head.

Again I am praying to get guided by the almighty, that he widens my heart and inrich me from his widom, so that I could help you understand the obvious that you duno!!

Wait.... wait...No need to pannic with ones ideas and thoughts, what ever dump they may seem to you. And I didnt like your extreme self steam that always demands you to win, and ofcourse to be the winner, you have to win your egos first. So read it and see for your self first. One must be confident enough to listen even the dumbest ideas(as you may label without actually understanding it).

I am sure you agree with me on this, as it makes more sense rather than bahave too much over confident and reject any kind of arguements and propositions without listening and analysing it a bit.
Read the Quran for yourselves, truely there are clear signs for mankind!!

The orrigional contents of all the old scriptures like Budaha, Manu scriptures(hindusm), Judaisim, christianity, islam and the like do have one thing in common. They all tell us that Allah is the creator of heavens and earth and what is in between them. Which can lead one to think, if those information where coming to men from the same source and ofcourse yes, Allah the all knowing full of wisdom. It is less likely to say Man himself has been fabricating it themseves.

Be assured that you will find yourself in the middle of an other real world exactly like this one. He who made you exist without your knowledge, can bring you back after your death. Do you have evidence that there will not be another world where men will be judged for what they did in life time?? And remember there is no "undo" button once the hour comes!!

You need to work on your understanding of the burden of proof.

 

[ecco]

Oh ....and though I can feel your earier frustration regarding the bunch of believers you kicked their asses when they fail to explain their beliefs in a way that makes sense for you, and in the contrary, you your self could have been locked and never opened your mind to change your attitudes and preconceptions. You must be experiencing for sure, but it is up to one's self to pay head.

Again I am praying to get guided by the almighty, that he widens my heart and inrich me from his widom, so that I could help you understand the obvious that you duno!!

You are praying to help me understand? Really? Perhaps, instead of praying, you should explain why your superstitious beliefs are any different than any other superstitious beliefs.

Wait.... wait...No need to pannic with ones ideas and thoughts, what ever dump they may seem to you. And I didnt like your extreme self steam that always demands you to win, and ofcourse to be the winner, you have to win your egos first. So read it and see for your self first. One must be confident enough to listen even the dumbest ideas(as you may label without actually understanding it).

Red what? The koran? The story book that you believe in? The story book that you go to great lengths to justify? The story book that you pretend has knowledge that no one could have at the time?

I am sure you agree with me on this, as it makes more sense rather than bahave too much over confident and reject any kind of arguements and propositions without listening and analysing it a bit.
Read the Quran for yourselves, truely there are clear signs for mankind!!

But I have listened to you and people like you. People in awe that Mohammed knew about sperm. People who are taught that lying for one's religion is not only accepted, it is required.

Be assured that you will find yourself in the middle of an other real world exactly like this one. He who made you exist without your knowledge, can bring you back after your death. Do you have evidence that there will not be another world where men will be judged for what they did in life time?? And remember there is no "undo" button once the hour comes!!

Well, I hope you enjoy your stay in Allah's heaven. After two months all you have left is 72 nagging women - for all of eternity.

ETA: And remember there is no "undo" button once the hour comes!!