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Human Sacrifice & Scapegoating, Easter's questionable morals

Buddha Dharma

Dharma Practitioner
"Jesus died for our Sins"...

Really? What kind of moral teaching is that? Sounds like a cult of human sacrifice and scapegoating!

I'm not sure the fundamental point of Easter has to do with morality for Christians. Especially since many Christians seem to feel your morals don't truly matter at the end of the day, so long as you had the saving belief in Jesus.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm not sure the fundamental point of Easter has to do with morality for Christians. Especially since many Christians seem to feel your morals don't truly matter at the end of the day, so long as you had the saving belief in Jesus.

So when does Christianity teach morals if not on one of its most important dates?
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I'm also not buying Genesis. Even if I believed in the stories, I would not take on any responsibility for Adam and Eve's mistakes.
The term original sin is somewhat unfortunate as it often leads to the misunderstanding you exhibit here. The claim is not that of a collective culpability but that the knock-on effects of the first sin to enter into this world irrevocably altered humanity's place in the created order. Not only are we now subject to decay and death, we're also burdened with the tendency towards sin. As God is uncompromisingly holy it also meant that we, without some kind of redemptive mechanism, were unable bridge that gap. Christ is that redemptive mechanism. Anything else, is futile.

That we suffer under original sin is by no means anyone's fault. It is not in and of itself a sin. The notion of total depravity is a Protestant/Jansenist exaggeration. It's a heretical distortion that has done tremendous damage.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Which puts us right back where we were a few posts back. That god made his creatures broken. i'm not signing up for that belief system, seems broken.
Catholicism and Orthodoxy explicitly teach that we still retain our goodness as God creates nothing evil. It's cloudy, not broken.

I'm not telling you to accept anything. I'm telling you that your theology is bad. The idea that we're broken, that our wills became hopelessly directed towards evil and evil alone is a sixteenth century heresy.

And as far as the decay and suffering we're subject to in this life goes, it's super unfortunate. But going back to my first post the dominion of those things over us has already been crushed. (If one but crosses that bridge graciously laid out for us).
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm not telling you to accept anything. I'm telling you that your theology is bad. The idea that we're broken, that our wills became hopelessly directed towards evil and evil alone is a sixteenth century heresy.

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are immoral implications built in to the phrase "Jesus died for your sins". This phrase is not a relic - it's in common use today.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there are immoral implications built in to the phrase "Jesus died for your sins". This phrase is not a relic - it's in common use today.
I would rather argue that the phrase is in and of itself meaningless. It's meaningful only when one is well versed in solid Christian teaching. I look at the Crucifixion and I see a perfect act of love. If you find that immoral then we're never going to see eye to eye on much at all.

Scapegoating is to divert blame onto a person or group unfairly. (Society is falling apart... because atheists...). If that's what you honestly got out of the New Testament, then I'm not sure we're reading the same text.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I would rather argue that the phrase is in and of itself meaningless. It's meaningful only when one is well versed in solid Christian teaching. I look at the Crucifixion and I see a perfect act of love. If you find that immoral then we're never going to see eye to eye on much at all.

Scapegoating is to divert blame onto a person or group unfairly. (Society is falling apart... because atheists...). If that's what you honestly got out of the New Testament, then I'm not sure we're reading the same text.

A lot of Christian families, from many denominations, will be taking their kids to Easter services this weekend. Millions of kids will likely hear the phrase: "Jesus died for our sins". Is it your contention that this is a positive, meaningful message for children? It seems your argument is based on the idea that one needs to be a scholar of some sort to parse the phrase "correctly". What a bad idea it is to burden kids with this phrase, and especially to give it such weight. We might even call it barbaric.
 

syo

Well-Known Member
"Jesus died for our Sins"...

Really? What kind of moral teaching is that? Sounds like a cult of human sacrifice and scapegoating!
Jesus' purpose was to save humanity. in order to save humanity, he had to become a perfect human himself. this means, he had to take upon him all the sins of people, and he had to suffer death (like an ordinary human does). his birth and death were necessary. he didn't die out of a whim. he died, went to the underworld, defeated Death, and came back to life.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Jesus' purpose was to save humanity. in order to save humanity, he had to become a perfect human himself. this means, he had to take upon him all the sins of people, and he had to suffer death (like an ordinary human does). his birth and death were necessary. he didn't die out of a whim. he died, went to the underworld, defeated Death, and came back to life.

exactly! scapegoating! reprehensible!
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
A lot of Christian families, from many denominations, will be taking their kids to Easter services this weekend. Millions of kids will likely hear the phrase: "Jesus died for our sins". Is it your contention that this is a positive, meaningful message for children?
Yes. Jesus accepted death and by his resurrection conquered it thereby opening the gates of heaven to humanity.

If you don't believe in the redemptive power of Christ that's one thing. But your vague notions of 'scapegoating' and 'moral implications' are frankly contrived.

It seems your argument is based on the idea that one needs to be a scholar of some sort to parse the phrase "correctly". What a bad idea it is to burden kids with this phrase, and especially to give it such weight. We might even call it barbaric.
You don't need to be a scholar, you just need to understand things in context. If there's one concept in Christian thought that can be proved it's the reality of sin. You may not want to call it that but the reality is that everyone has that pigheaded, weak, selfish and sometimes malicious side to them. Unless as per my signature you really want to deny the cat.

And if you want to talk about positive messages for children then what is it at the end of the day, your worldview offers? Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? There's no hope, only an inescapable oblivion?

Of course I believe the materialists are wrong and that they have been taken in by a lie. But if that's what you seriously believe then that's your prerogative. Flowery language aside, a civilization that denies any supernatural destiny of man can only go in a couple of directions. Either a pleasure obsessed, consumeristic nihilism. Or to the murderous dysfunction of utopian ideologies.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. Jesus accepted death and by his resurrection conquered it thereby opening the gates of heaven to humanity.

If you don't believe in the redemptive power of Christ that's one thing. But your vague notions of 'scapegoating' and 'moral implications' are frankly contrived.


You don't need to be a scholar, you just need to understand things in context.

If there's one concept in Christian thought that can be proved it's the reality of sin. You may not want to call it that but the reality is that everyone has that pigheaded, weak, selfish and sometimes malicious side to them. Unless as per my signature you really want to deny the cat.

And if you want to talk about positive messages for children, then what is it that wide acceptance of your worldview would offer? Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die? There's no hope, only an inescapable oblivion?

Of course I believe the materialists are wrong and that they have been taken in by a lie. But if that's what you seriously believe then that's your prerogative. Flowery language aside, a civilization that denies any supernatural destiny of man can only go deeper and deeper into a pleasure obsessed, consumeristic nihilism.
Assuming nihilism or More than anyone else selfishness on materialists is no less inappropriate than surmising Christian morals as 'treat this life as a weigh station for the next life, feign altruism for the sake of avoiding death, spread a message based on fear of mortality and the belief that without a security camera in the sky you would be a raving lunatic with no virtues or meta-ethics.' It's an innately insulting argument, and not actually representative.

Neither is the idea that afterlife belief is necessary to have purpose, compassion, empathy, charity, commitment, resolve, morals and ethics. And some of the most shining examples of nations with these in spades are secular countries with high non-belief (re: Scandanavia, Japan, etc.)
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Or to the murderous dysfunction of utopian ideologies.
Like, you know...heaven belief. Where the majority of people are killed (sorry, 'they bring it on themselves') and a select few who have their being fundamentally altered do so after entirely devoting themselves to a position of tyranny. (But it's wholly good, we promise.)
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Assuming nihilism or More than anyone else selfishness on materialists is no less inappropriate than surmising Christian morals as 'treat this life as a weigh station for the next life, feign altruism for the sake of avoiding death, spread a message based on fear of mortality and the belief that without a security camera in the sky you would be a raving lunatic with no virtues or meta-ethics.' It's an innately insulting argument, and not actually representative.
The only rational basis for any kind of moral reasoning in the godless husk universe that materialists accept is self-interest. It may well indeed please you to be a good person and it may very well be socially advantageous as no one likes jerks. But in the end of the day there's no more value to your life than that of an amoeba's. (No matter how much you may personally value it). There's certainly no justice. Stalin and Hitler never really answered for the collective millions they murdered. (Hitler suffered a second of pain before going to the oblivion that awaits everyone anyway). You offer nothing but moral subjectivism because assuming materialism that's all there can ultimately be. It's nihilism whether you call it that or not.

Neither is the idea that afterlife belief is necessary to have purpose, compassion, empathy, charity, commitment, resolve, morals and ethics.
It's not necessary, just baseless beyond self-interest. And when it's in your self-interest to play hard and loose with those things there's certainly no answering for it. (Assuming you don't get caught). And yes of course, Christians can play loose with morality as well. But when I do something bad I believe I will reap that bad for eternity. This life (fellow traveler) determines the disposition you will carry, consciously, forever. There's nothing more serious and more meaningful than this life, because it's our one chance to decide what side of the cosmic moral order we align ourselves with. With materialism, your only hope is in the best this world can offer, which is always subject to impermanence and dissatisfaction.

And some of the most shining examples of nations with these in spades are secular countries with high non-belief (re: Scandanavia, Japan, etc.)
They're also technologically advanced and rich. It's easy to reject hope beyond this world when you are relatively comfortable in this world. Basically, I don't buy that the adverage Swede is a beacon of virtue.

Like, you know...heaven belief. Where the majority of people are killed (sorry, 'they bring it on themselves') and a select few who have their being fundamentally altered do so after entirely devoting themselves to a position of tyranny. (But it's wholly good, we promise.)
I'm not even seeing a coherent point here. The last century is a testament to the horror brought by those who sought to replace God with the state. Everyone worships something; be it God, sex, money, race or the idea of an all-encompassing, ideological and re-distributive state. I personally, choose God. And the hope of something better beyond this short, fragile life.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The only rational basis for any kind of moral reasoning in the godless husk universe that materialists accept is self-interest
This is a non-starter, as the implication isn't true for either side. I have no more reason to accept this is true than 'the only reason people become Christian is out of self-interest.' The desire for immortality or to avoid perceived punishment or to feel more cosmically meaningful. It's a false dilemma.
There are other motivations perfectly within the paradigm of naturalism. Up to and including the same sociological and psychological desires theists have, just without the god(s) factor. As i said, you don't need a god(s) for altruism, compassion, empathy etc and arguably putting a god in there can make a more selfish person than any non-believer. Which I believe is absolutely always the case when being presented with something like Pascal's Wager, an inherently selfish argument. (Also a pretty disingenuous one but that's another thread.)

And if someone can find no reason to not hurt someone other than the threat of punishment, I think that says a lot more about them than people who don't.

The last century is a testament to the horror brought by those who sought to replace God with the state.
Even if I believed the Abrahamic God existed I wouldn' be a Christian for the same reason I'm not a Stalinist or Maoist: I'm not a totalitarian.
In any case materialism =/= antitheism or forced atheist governance. Aforementioned Scandanavian countries arrived at a place of low belief and high secularism through organic cultural evolution, not force and stigma. Incidentally are no more well off than many religious nations including our own. And implying that wealth breeds atheism is no less a bad faith argument that poor education breeds theism.
 
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