How are these Great Beings explained?

[TransmutingSoul]

Obviously, I don't agree god of abrabam is somehow connected to The Buddha.

So you would now be saying Reincarnation or rebirth only happens in India amongst beleivers? A Hindu can not be possibly reincarnated/rebirthed into people of other Faiths.

I would see reincarnation all inclusive as one would never know where they would pop up next and in what. One would have to accept a connection with all things.

Its a man religion, for man, and by man. It puts high emphasis on not trusting spiritual (brahma etc) sources as points to enlightenment. Unless you can show without bahai scripture the connection I don't see it.

Yes the imput of mans ideas has happened to the teachings of Buddha. Baha'u'llah has confirmed that Buddha was from God, thus the techings were from God, it it is now not seen that way, it is man that has done this. We have shown this connecrion in the Baha'i Writings.

That is not my question.

Since rebirth is a man thing and bahaullah is a god thing, is there another
don't see it.

To be reborn is the Spiritual Gift offered, it is freely open to our choices. To rise above flesh and bone and our material world, all the while, living our God given life to reach our full potential.

Regards Tony

Tegards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So you would now be saying Reincarnation or rebirth only happens in India amongst beleivers? A Hindu can not be possibly reincarnated/rebirthed into people of other Faiths.

How did you get that from what I said???

The Buddha was a person and he was a Hindu. Any god he did believe in is Brahma. He would also be a polytheist (as in many of his older suttas). Being in India, he would have no connection with anyone who believes "the god of the jews." Muhammad was born years years after his passing.

Rebirth means literally reborn into this life by actual suffering and attachments. Once our mind is no longer attach to this world, we are no longer reborn.

We die.

Reincarnation: Reborn again until one reaches Moska. Translate that as you will but Vinakaya already gave you explanations on that.

I would see reincarnation all inclusive as one would never know where they would pop up next and in what. One would hav

I dont know about reincarnation. I dont believe in god. Everyone goes through rebirth. Just as the sun turns and babies born and die and reborn so does our mind (not spirit; no such thing in Pali Canon Ive read). Gosh. Wish you were really into multiple viewpoints. There is a good Dharma Talk on this.

Yes the imput of mans ideas has happened to the teachings of Buddha. Baha'u'llah has confirmed that Buddha was from God, thus the techings were from God, it it is now n

Cant separate The Buddha's teachings from man. He is a man and taught man teachings.

He literally said Brahma (god) does not lead to enlightenment. Bahaullah has nothing to do with it.

To be reborn is the Spiritual Gift offered, it is freely open to our choices. To rise above flesh and bone and our material world, all the while, living our God given life to reach our full potential.

Its not abstract.

We literally believe we will be reborn both body and mind (no spirit).

Makes me wonder where my aunt is. Probably rooting for the Dallas Cowboys.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Makes me wonder where my Aunt is. Probably rooted for the Dallas

I will not go over it again Carlita. It is really a broken record now, we should have thrown it out long ago.

Your Aunt is not far away and will not come back to this world. But interaction can be allowed by God.

Your and her prayers can be shared.

It is like us still in the womb and your Aunt is now in Life. She clearly knows and we are still becoming what we will be.

I hope you read this;

"...Those who have ascended have different attributes from those who are still on earth, yet there is no real separation.
“In prayer there is a mingling of station, a mingling of condition. Pray for them as they pray for you! When you do not know it, and are in a receptive attitude, they are able to make suggestions to you, if you are in difficulty. This sometimes happens in sleep. but there is no phenomenal intercourse! That which seems like phenomenal intercourse has another explanation.” The questioner exclaimed; “But I have heard a voice!” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá said: “Yes, that is possible; we hear voices clearly in dreams. It is not with the physical ear that you heard; the spirit of those that have passed on are freed from sense-life, and do not use physical means. It is not possible to put these great matters into human words; the language of man is the language of children, and man’s explanation often leads astray.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in London, Pages 95-97

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actually, The Dharma isnt abstract. Love and justice are results of specific teachings not the other way around. Anyone can say any person (any) can give love. Its not a god give isolated trait.

As electricty and flight can be derived from the application of hidden scientific laws, so too can love and justice be derived from the application of spiritual laws.

Scientists manifest or make known the scientific principles. The saints and sages manifest the spiritual laws.

We all need teachers, even scientists, saints, and sages.

The best saints and sages usually derive their inspiration directly from at least one Manifestation of God (Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, or Krishna).

The best scientists usually apply spiritual principles to their work, even if they do not acknowledge the source.

You guys are similar in goals, some politics, and less emphasis if none on ritual devotion. The only huge difference is Buddhism has no god. SGI (Japanese Buddhism) isnt an exception.

To be clear SGI isn't Japanese Buddhism anymore than Mormonism is American Christianity.

What is the goal of SGI? What is their politics?

The problem with Maitrieya is thats in Therevada Buddhism, but then you quote Pure Land in Mahayana that is different and has many many Buddhas after.

Both Mahayana and Therevada offer truths that the other does not have. That's one of the biggest problems with being an adherent to any ancient tradition. We can lose sight of the great truths in all religions.

My old question was. What will Meitreya teach thats different than The Buddha?

The oneness of God and the oneness of religion.

Not politics. The Buddha's teachings dont change by time period. Culture does.

The spiritual beliefs of the peoples can have a profound influence on both culture and politics. If religion it loses then its spiritual vitality may adversely or negatively influence culture and politics or simply have little effect at all. Religion at its worst can become like a poison. Religion can also become like salt that has lost its saltiness. Totally useless.

I dont know what sect of The Buddha was in when he practiced Hinduism. I know there are some like terminology and mystics in some of The Dharma give Hindus believe in one god. Though in Buddhism its not a personal god. That and he mentions more than one Brahma, so Id have to double check. I go to another site one of the monks in another monastary put together with classes. They have a question and answer. I know there isnt a one god but The Buddha in Mahayana buddhism refers to more than one and they arent enlightened. They are just like us in that respect.

Christ believes in one god.

I can hear him now comparing his father's teachings to a "gentile's"

I think you mean what sect of Hinduism? I suspect most were Vaishnivites or followers of Krishna. The origins of Saivite Hinduism may have been at a similar time to the emergence of Buddhist, so we could speculate that conditions in both culture and politics had reached a low ebb, reflecting the spiritual vitality of the Vaishnivites. Just speculation. I wonder if @Vinayaka has any thoughts about it.

Interesting. I usually say force which sounds star warzy. I understand the different ways to describe god and many names. I see it (not him or her) that Is life not gives it nor is a being that creates it. The culture, Bahai included, wrapped around the energy/life is quite interesting. Vinayaka did a good explanation of how Id see god or Brahman. Id love to know more but I respect its a cultural thang.

Its an interesting concept God. Is God knowable or unknowable? Does He emanate or exists beyond or seperate from His creation? Is He existent or nonexistent?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

ago

Tony. She passed less than a week ago. I found out the morning she died. She used to practice buddhism. Didnt know that actually. Tibetans believe that when we are reborn, we can be reborn as an animal, insect at any time period and circumstance. I read somewhere that the mind takes what 49 days or so before reborn into a new living being. Its rare to be reborn as a human, they say. Even more so, when reborn our goal is to practice Dharma. All our actions go towards a good rebirth. I havent heard in person, cannon, nor online any personal god was involved. In the Pali (suttas) The Buddha says that there is nothing eternal. (Hence no god). Everything changes. Everything. If my aunt is reborn, its because of her actions in this life. But we would not know.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As electricty and flight can be derived from the application of hidden scientific laws, so too can love and justice be derived from the application of spiritual laws.

Scientists manifest or make known the scientific principles. The saints and sages manifest the spiritual laws.

We all need teachers, even scientists, saints, and sages.

The best saints and sages will usually derive their inspiration directly from at least one Manifestation of God (Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, or Krishna).

The best scientists will usually apply spiritual principles to their work, even if they do not acknowledge the source.

The science of love and compassion is psychology and psychiatry. It's not abstract. These things you can pick up EEGs and things like that. Spirituality isn't physics just as I can't eat soup with a pencil. Doesn't mean either is wrong, just each has their own place and role.

Of course, I don't know about the other people. Christ and The Buddha more so than Moses and definitely not Muhammad and Krishna.

To be clear SGI isn't Japanese Buddhism anymore than Mormonism isn't American Christianity.

What is the goal of SGI? What is their politics?

Sorry. It's a Japanese Buddhist sect. It originated in Chinese Buddhism, Ten Tai.

1. Ten Tai Buddhism
2. Nichiren Buddhism Ten Tai

Nichiren Diashonin, a Japanese monk, studied under a Ten Tai master. He learned about the teachings when they traveled from China to Japan. During the Japanese war, he was imprisoned for debating with Zen masters and the Hinayana school on the nature of being enlightened. While others looked to The Buddha himself, Nichiren, who read the Lotus Sutra that summarizes The Pali Cannons in full, says that all the teachings are in one law: Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. In this law (I devote myself to the mystic law of karma) in our actions is how we conduct our lives as Buddhists. While not all schools follow Nichiren given how "new" and confrontational it became after the split, the original teachings are there nonetheless.

3. Nichiren Diashonin Buddhism split into two. Nichiren Shu and Nichiren Shoshu. (other sects or traditions broke away but these rare the biggest ones).

a. Nichiren Buddhism Tradition Chart

The main beliefs, rather, are the Gohonzon and Daimoku. All tradition practitioners chant Diamoku to the Gohonzon in order to get full potential to become a Bodhisattva of the Earth just as The Buddha's disciples (Mahayana Buddhism).

You can see a translation of the Gohonzon here:

b. Translation of the Gohonzon

This is written in Sanskrit, Japanese, Chinese, and a couple of other languages.

Nichiren Shu is said to be the oldest and closest to Nichiren teachings.

4. Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism

There is a lot of mess online about Nichiren Shoshu. The priests were nice, though. It's a very evangelical tradition within Nichiren Buddhism. There is a high dependence on enlightenment through the priesthood. The Gohonzon has a special power that it is treated more like the enlightenment itself rather than the scroll that depicts enlightenment.

One day...

5. Soka Gokai International History

One day, someone stood ground against the priesthood and told the priest that Nichiren Diashonin taught we can gain enlightenment for ourselves not through the priesthood. (Sound familiar?) The priesthood excommunicated hundreds of Nichiren Shoshu practitioners. Reflections of the Excommunication

6. SGI was more of a revolt against Shoshu. Their goal gradually started to focus on world peace and happiness by chanting Diamaoku (Nam Myoho Renge Kyo).

The politic part that Bahai (from this thread) and SGI have in common is world peace, virtues, and unity among diversity. Edit... They are both modern and both"correct" old teachings to establish the "true" teaching ("True Buddhism" for example) SGI to Shoshu and Bahai to Islam-if I remember correctly)

I mentioned the huge thing that they do not have in common is belief in god.

The observation is not negative in nature.

Both Mahayana and Therevada offer truths that the other does not have. That's the one of the biggest problems with being an adherent to any ancient tradition. We can lose sight of the great truths in all religions.

These are not problems, these are differences.

Address the people not the traditions. That's like saying I followed "ancient traditions" because I was Shoshu, SGI, then Catholic. It's judging the people.

In my opinion, this is my value, if I judged Bahai and said "you are wrong for your believing The Buddha points to god" that's focusing on the people. If I said "your religion teaches that The Buddha pointed to god, and this is incorrect" I'm referring to the religion. You're not following a immoral tradition. I don't care for modern religions. I love the ancient ones. They have more grounding than abstract happiness ones. Ancient traditions have grounding on past history and beliefs carried on to the next generation. Just as individual families may loose a couple of pictures and go separate ways that their parents before them wanted them to, so as a whole group of people. We are no different than who is on the news.

By your statement, you're separated Bahai from the rest of the people.
That is completely contrary to the goal you want to promote.

Te oneness of God and the oneness of religion.

Okay...

The spiritual beliefs of the peoples can have a profound influence on both culture and politics. If religion it loses its spiritual vitality may adversely or negatively influence culture and politics and simply have little effect at all. Religion can become like a poison. Religion can become like salt that has lost its saltiness.

Religion isn't loosing anything. People use religion to their own benefit. I can be bahai and use it for bad things. If I get thousands of people and on the news, then you'll see anti-bahai sites and stuff as a result. Then, if more people follow my anti-bahai vibe, then you have a whole historical revolution even though Bahaism doesn't even teach wars and negativity. Yet, if you went off this fictional history rather than what the religion actually teaches, you would think otherwise.

It's not about what you see on the news. People are people. I wouldn't be any religion if I judged people's faiths off of what I read in history books and on the news. Preferences is fine but judging?

I think you mean what sect of Hinduism. I suspect most were Vaishnivites or followers of Krishna. The origins of Saivite Hinduism may have been at a similar time to the emergence of Buddhist, so we could speculate that conditions in both culture and politics had reached a low ebb, reflecting the spiritual vitality of the Vaishnivites. Just speculation. I wonder if @Vinayaka has any thoughts about it.

I don't know what sect of Hinduism The Buddha practiced. Do you know?

Its interesting concept God. Is God knowable or unknowable? Does He emanate or exists beyond or separate from His creation? Is He existent or nonexistent?

I have no clue. You'd have to describe him more than just an essence then I can figure out if he or she lines up with the characteristics and attributes you describe of "him".

Edit: To read more about Nichiren Buddhism, go to Nichiren Library.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That contrasts with you seeing them as misguided regardless of what they think. Seeing people as misguided because of rituals doesn't promote unity and peace among diversity.

Can you rephrase it to correlate to your goal or does bahallauh mean something different than those two words apply?



Rituals (traditions) do not go against god. Replacing them as idols does.

Where in the bible does god say he is against something that isn't used as idols?



Many Christians do. Disagreeing and saying one is misguided are two separate things. It is not love to call anyone misguided regardless your disagreements.

Understand?



Either is good. No one path is the truth. Diversity respects more than one truth or else there'd be no unity....

Unless unity among diversity means something else?




That doesn't mean others are misguided. It just means you guys differ in more than one truth. Opinions don't hurt. Taking away one tradition does.

Is this what you're implying?




Catholics have no patent on sacraments. All christian churches have them. Its embedded in christian teachings, scripture Torah, and so forth.

Unless you have a different definition of sacraments, which sacrament has no necessary influence in one coming to the one true god?

The same goes for other Faiths. They think we are misguided also because we believe Baha’u’llah is the Promised One. So it’s no big deal that each religion believes differently to the other. The exception here is that Baha’i accepts all other religions, their Founders and Holy Books just not the man made interpretations and man made rituals which cannot be traced back to the Founder. So we accept whatever is from God but not what the leaders of religion have devised.

We don’t ever say other religions are misguided, how can we when we believe in that religion too? By religion we Baha’is mean what God has revealed in His Holy Book not man made interpretations, rituals or ceremonies which are a result of interpretations. Not every Christian religion has sacraments as not all Christian Faiths interpret the Bible in that way.

People are free to practise sacraments as they wish only we don’t practise them. So we be'ive in Jesus and the Bible but do not follow any person’s interpretation except an authoritative interpretation that comes from God not man.

 

[loverofhumanity]

...but you know better - right? And if that makes you feel good, I'm happy for you...

...but I still don't think you should support your position by pretending that Jesus didn't command it when he clearly did...or that you believe the teachings of Jesus when you clearly don't...just be honest and say 'I don't believe in the teachings of Jesus' - don't twist his teachings and then claim that his other followers have got it all wrong - I tried that myself for a few years as a JW - and its just not right.

Christians are told to worship God ‘I’m spirit and I truth’.

When I say no rituals, where did Christ specifically reveal a Book of Laws laying down rituals and ceremonies, their observance frequency and the style and manner in which they are to be observed as well as the regularity?

Baptism was not obligatory to become a believer and where is communion obligatory.

These sacraments are man made ‘interpretations’ of the church not obligatory specific laws set down by Christ Himself to be repeated at certain times and intervals.

Christ changed the law of the Sabbath Day, divorce and gave the commandment to love one another but no obligatory rituals and ceremonies or sacraments.


Are the seven Catholic sacraments biblical?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The same goes for other Faiths. They think we are misguided also because we believe Baha’u’llah is the Promised One. So it’s no big deal that each religion believes differently to the other. The exception here is that Baha’i accepts all other religions, their Founders and Holy Books just not the man made interpretations and man made rituals which cannot be traced back to the Founder. So we accept whatever is from God but not what the leaders of religion have devised.

I don't talk to many Christians who quote people are misguided. It's not the religion, it's the people. If I keep hearing "they are misguided" regardless of their beliefs and morals, the point of judging people is wrong. I don't care for it.

Saying "we believe X and they believe Y" is totally different than saying "they are misguided for believing X they should believe Y."

It's not you guys beliefs.

We don’t ever say other religions are misguided, how can we when we believe in that religion too? By religion we Baha’is mean what God has revealed in His Holy Book not man made interpretations, rituals or ceremonies which are a result of interpretations. Not every Christian religion has sacraments as not all Christian Faiths interpret the Bible in that way.

Lover, all over this forum every Bahai that participated in a long discussion said other religions are misguided, have a veiled, are blind, and so forth.

Which denomination doesn't have all the sacraments? (Baptism, Repentance, Communion, and Verbal Conviction in faith) That's like saying one christian denomination doesn't use the bible.

People are free to practise sacraments as they wish only we don’t practise them. So we be'ive in Jesus and the Bible but do not follow any person’s interpretation except an authoritative interpretation that comes from God not man.

I'm referring to how you talk about your beliefs not the beliefs themselves. I believe you are wrong about The Buddha and god. It does not make sense to me. But I'd never say you guys are misguided, veiled, and any of those other non-sense words. I mean, I'm sorry you didn't have positive experiences from The Church (not displacing their sacraments and judging people by their politics, for example) but I came in later in life. Most my outside family are protestants and heavily bible oriented. So I came into Catholicism on a difference mindset than most older Catholics. That, and it truly depends on which pope was running the show. A lot of people still remember Vatican I. Some of the teachings in Vatican II is disagreed upon even among Catholics!

I see people hush hush about it when I was at The Church. Probably because we are all "All Saints" tradition rather than Dominican and other traditions within Catholicism. So it's more laid back than other Catholic Churches I went to where I can see why people don't care for The Church, but judge The Body of Christ by its politics!? That, I don't understand.

Catholics and I have been scratching our heads for years. I mean, one lady I live with in her late 80s knew I was Catholic. She came to the desk crying and I asked her what was wrong. (I work behind the desk). She says that she didn't know so many people hate the Church. "So many people hate The Mother of our Lord." I didn't know. I didn't know.

Preference is one thing, judging a group of people is a whole 'nother story. It's easy to say I won't judge individual people. When you see a whole bunch of people doing something wrong, then we judge. We grow biases and then all of the sudden discrimination.

We have that a lot here. A lot.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

1. Baptism just means being born again into following Christ. Whether by water or spirit is not mere the point as to giving your life to Christ and Christ only. It's a ritual of conversion of the heart and by deed.

2. Communion is gathering with The Body of Christ and worshiping together over one meal. Whether it's once a month, three times a day, grape juice or wine is no mere the point as worshiping as one unit, to one Christ, and one god.

3. Repentance is when a person asks forgiveness to god through christ. When you ask for forgiveness, and god forgives, that's an act of repentance. Confession is a verb-it's the act of saying what you did wrong to receive forgiveness from god. When you receive forgiveness, you reconcile your relationship with god through christ.

4. Act of conviction (confirm-ing your faith) in front of the body of christ is just saying to your peers, I believe and I want to be a part of Christ's family. People usually do this before they become Catholics. It's an inner conviction of conversion before one is baptized (born again) and agree to be accepted into the christ's family (confirmation), and worship together (commune-ion).

JW-Baptism
JW-Communion
JW-Repentance

I think the only sacrament JW doesn't have is confirmation. I guess you can say one is confirmed when one decides to become JW.

If you can think outside the box with your own faith why not the sacraments of Christ?

 

[Dawnofhope]

The science of love and compassion is psychology and psychiatry. It's not abstract. These things you can pick up EEGs and things like that. Spirituality isn't physics just as I can't eat soup with a pencil. Doesn't mean either is wrong, just each has their own place and role.

Of course, I don't know about the other people. Christ and The Buddha more so than Moses and definitely not Muhammad and Krishna.

Religion is practical. If it is of no benefit to the individual and the community there's no point.

RF seems like a helpful place to learn about different faiths. Why not learn a little more about Islam, Hinduism and Judaism? Thats why I'm here. To learn.

Sorry. It's a Japanese Buddhist sect. It originated in Chinese Buddhism, Ten Tai.

Thanks for all the information. Its hard to digest.

However some problems with SGI for me:

It doesn't resonate.

It is not united and it sounds complicated.
How can you unite people if you are not reconciled amongst yourselves? How can you create world peace if there is not a clear vision of how to get there?

I'll stay to pure land Buddhism. It lifts my spirits and makes sense. It also provides plenty of space for a Monothestic God.

As previously mentioned the Japanese I have had contact with don't care for SGI and they are seen as being a nutty group of religious extremists. Part of that could be the prejudice of the Japanese and its their perception, not mine. There hasn't been anything you have said thats given me a more favourable impression of SGI. I suspect at the heart of SGIs difficulties are their inability to use Buddha's Teachings to find agrement and unity amongst themselves.

These are not problems, these are differences.

Address the people not the traditions. That's like saying I followed "acient traditions" because I was Shoshu, SGI, then Catholic. It's judging the people.

In my opinion, this is my value, if I judged Bahai and said "you are wrong for your believing The Buddha points to god" that's focusing on the people. If I said "your religion teaches that The Buddha pointed to god, and this is incorrect" I'm referring to the religion. You're not following a immoral tradition. I don't care for modern religions. I love the ancient ones. They have more grounding than abstract happiness ones. Acient traditions have grounding on past history and beliefs carried on to the next generation. Just as individual families may loose a couple of pictures and go separate ways that their foreparents wanted them to, so as a whole group of people. We are no different than who is on the news. By your statement, you're separated Bahai from the rest of the people.

That is completely contrary to the goal you want to provide.

I'm not judging anyone. I am highlighting a problem that exists within religions though. That is religious communities can find themselves relatively isolated and disengaged with the communities where they reside as their faith's teachings have failed to adapt to the modern world. That may sound harsh, but it is what it is. A minister of the Christian Faith phrased the problem during a sermon. "Are we museums for the saints or hospitals for the sinners?"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hm

Religion is practical. If it is of no benefit to the individual and the community there's no point.

RF seems like a helpful place to learn about different faiths. Why not learn a little more about Islam, Hinduism and Judaism? Thats why I'm here. To learn.

Hinduism is cultural. I visited their temple. I wouldn't understand anything without belief in god at the least. Someone invited me to a mosque. I came while they prayed so I was handed the Quran. I read it impart and found Muhammad had problems with Christianity. I visited a synagogue. Like on RF, some Jews have issues with non Jews. I can't convert nor know a faith unless I interact. Reading doesn't help with spirituality without involvement in the faith you adopt as fact.

Thanks for all the information. Its hard to digest

It is. Like JW, they have their one magazine.

However some problems with SGI for me:

It doesn't resonate.

It is not united and it sounds complicated.
How can you unite people if you are not reconciled amongst yourselves? How can you create world peace if there is not a clear vision of how to get there?

It's united they are just getting over the I think it was in the 80s split with Shoshu. Their sensei Ikeda and president set up SGI organizations globally. There is a lot of meetings involved, reading, and chanting. And shakabuku.

I'll stay to pure land Buddhism. It lifts my spirits and makes sense. It also provides plenty of space for a Monothestic God.

As previously mentioned the Japanese I have had contact with don't care for SGI and they are seen as being a nutty group of religious extremists. Part of that could be the prejudice of the Japanese and its their perception, not mine. There hasn't been anything you have said thats given me a more favourable impression of SGI. I suspect at the heart of SGIs difficulties are their inability to use Buddha's Teachings to find agrement and unity amongst themselves.

Please reread. Ten tai is a Chinese sect. It migrated to Japan (look up Tentai). Nichiren got his teachings from a Japanese ten tai master. Nichiren was born 1222. Way after Pure Land came about. You might like this link on pure land. There is Chinese pure land too. SGI is not a tradition. Its a spring off organization from the Nichiren Shoshu. Shoshu got its influence from Japanese Buddhism. Nichiren was a Japanese monk who based a lot of his teachings on the culture of his day (culture and religion are one) with what he was taught and said in his letters,the gosho, info he learned from his own study of all Buddhist sutras. He dropped them and said the real teachings of this time period is the lotus. Much like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism lost its flare in "mans" teachings and bahai have the correct interpretations type of thing.

I'm not judging anyone. I am highlighting a problem that exists within religions though. That is religious communities can find themselves relatively isolated and disengaged with the communities where they reside as their faith's teachings have failed to adapt to the modern world. That may sound harsh, but it is what it is. A minister of the Christian Faith phrased the problem during a sermon. "Are we museums for the saints or hospitals for the sinners?"

Where you the way you describe these " people" when you were full fledge christian at name and practice? I wasn't. I had better things to do. So do thousands. I don't like generalizations. It clouds your point.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't talk to many Christians who quote people are misguided. It's not the religion, it's the people. If I keep hearing "they are misguided" regardless of their beliefs and morals, the point of judging people is wrong. I don't care for it.

Saying "we believe X and they believe Y" is totally different than saying "they are misguided for believing X they should believe Y."

It's not you guys beliefs.



Lover, all over this forum every Bahai that participated in a long discussion said other religions are misguided, have a veiled, are blind, and so forth.

Which denomination doesn't have all the sacraments? (Baptism, Repentance, Communion, and Verbal Conviction in faith) That's like saying one christian denomination doesn't use the bible.



I'm referring to how you talk about your beliefs not the beliefs themselves. I believe you are wrong about The Buddha and god. It does not make sense to me. But I'd never say you guys are misguided, veiled, and any of those other non-sense words. I mean, I'm sorry you didn't have positive experiences from The Church (not displacing their sacraments and judging people by their politics, for example) but I came in later in life. Most my outside family are protestants and heavily bible oriented. So I came into Catholicism on a difference mindset than most older Catholics. That, and it truly depends on which pope was running the show. A lot of people still remember Vatican I. Some of the teachings in Vatican II is disagreed upon even among Catholics!

I see people hush hush about it when I was at The Church. Probably because we are all "All Saints" tradition rather than Dominican and other traditions within Catholicism. So it's more laid back than other Catholic Churches I went to where I can see why people don't care for The Church, but judge The Body of Christ by its politics!? That, I don't understand.

Catholics and I have been scratching our heads for years. I mean, one lady I live with in her late 80s knew I was Catholic. She came to the desk crying and I asked her what was wrong. (I work behind the desk). She says that she didn't know so many people hate the Church. "So many people hate The Mother of our Lord." I didn't know. I didn't know.

Preference is one thing, judging a group of people is a whole 'nother story. It's easy to say I won't judge individual people. When you see a whole bunch of people doing something wrong, then we judge. We grow biases and then all of the sudden discrimination.

We have that a lot here. A lot.

It’s not for us to judge. We were just sharing our beliefs about the sacraments. We believe they were never authorised by Christ that’s all. That’s what it says in our Writings.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It’s not for us to judge. We were just sharing our beliefs about the sacraments. We believe they were never authorised by Christ that’s all. That’s what it says in our Writings.

You dont believe in baptism, repentence, verbal conviction, and communal worship????

Why go off the bible if you dont believe these things are in it?

Instituted? Sounds like youre talking about The Church. Christ doesnt institute. He taught orally. His disciples written it down. The verbal dicatations of his father-his father's Word (play on words) not words in a book.

Do you believe the bible as written?

Edit. The sacraments are Not Catholic.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You dont believe in baptism, repepentence, verbal conviction, and communal worship????

Why go off the bible if you dont believe these things are in it?

Instituted? Sounds like youre talking about The Church. Christ doesnt institute. He taught orally. His disciples written it down. The verbal dicatations of his father-his father's Word (play on words) not words in a book.

Do you believe the bible as written?

I believe in Jesus and the Bible as the Word of God. In some places like Revelation the Bible speaks in mystical language, in others it’s plain, in others parables. Some parts are symbolic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe in Jesus and the Bible as the Word of God. In some places like Revelation the Bible speaks in mystical language, in others it’s plain, in others parables. Some parts are symbolic.

Do you believe it as written?

Sacraments is not a Catholic word. Nor is it a "catholic" teaching. Do you believe in these things regardless if the symbolism?

Physical or symbolic does not matter. I asked multiple questions not retorical. You have me once a link to JW. They have the sacraments too.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you believe it as written?

Sacraments is not a Catholic word. Nor is it a "catholic" teaching. Do you believe in these things symbolic or not,

Does not matter.

I believe it to be the Word of God.

I believe it is the Word of God both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Please clarify what is meant by ‘as written’ as I do accept the entire Bible as being from God.
Other than the Bible itself I am unaware of what ‘as written’ may mean.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe it to be the Word of God.

I believe it is the Word of God both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Please clarify what is meant by ‘as written’ as I do accept the entire Bible as being from God.
Other than the Bible itself I am unaware of what ‘as written’ may mean.

The questions Im asking are directly in the written bible both OT and NT. Institution is from The Church. The sacraments are not a "catholic" teaching. JW dispises Catholic and they have them too.

Youre stuck on the organizational nature of The Church. I never had that harsh view of "Church" teachings. Ive been baptized in two different Churches. Ive had communion in many Churches. All of them I been to have confirmation and most definitely repentence.

The only one they dont have is the anointing of the sick. At least most protestants I know. Some baptist churches have oil anounting when someone confirms their faith in the church-baptist. Most have sacredness in marriage.

As written-whats physically written in the bible. Which five sacraments are not as written in scripture?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The questions Im asking are directly in the written bible both OT and NT. Institution is from The Church. The sacraments are not a "catholic" teaching. JW dispises Catholic and they have them too.

Youre stuck on the organizational nature of The Church. I never had that harsh view of "Church" teachings. Ive been baptized in two different Churches. Ive had communion in many Churches. All of them I been to have confirmation ajd most definitely repentence.

The only one they dont have is the anointing of the sick. At least most protestants I know. They have sacredness in marriage.

From my reading of the Bible I see things like baptism or communion more to do with belief. Water was just used to convey the need for inner cleansing just as water cleansed one outwardly.
As long as one understands the symbolism behind it it can do no harm but if people actually believe that physical water cleanses ones sins then that to me is superstition and not what Jesus wanted to convey.

Jesus was always trying to convey inner truths and so He often used nature to try to portray His meanings but from my reading He did not mean for the outward symbols of the inner reality to become worshipped or seen as part of the inner reality itself.

So water was never ever an essential ingredient for Baptism, belief in Jesus, just used to convey the necessity of of being clean inwardly too. The purpose of baptism was to commit one self to Christ,

Baha’is use enrollment cards which one signs. But that doesn’t make him/her a true or real Bahá’í. It’s just the outward commitment used so we know who is a Bahá’í. But one can believe in Baha’u’llah and be a Baha’i without a card just as anyone can be a Christian without having water poured on them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

From my reading of the Bible I see things like baptism or communion more to do with belief. Water was just used to convey the need for inner cleansing just as water cleansed one outwardly.

I'm more for water, but Jesus didn't say it was wrong. Institution is by the Church so I'd (not) see it wrong (how, unless you believe it's magical water?) just to some people extra or not needed. It's just water. I see no issue with it. No one worships water.

It's there regardless of how Bahai sees it. Bahai aren't christians; so, I'd consider it opinion.

As long as one understands the symbolism behind it it can do no harm but if people actually believe that physical water cleanses ones sins then that to me is superstition and not what Jesus wanted to convey.

You're missing the whole point of rituals. It's grounds the physical and spiritual together; since, creation is not separate from the creator. It's the hug that goes with the I love you. It's the love for a child with whom the parent literally not symbolically saves. It's not longer Christianity (and Buddhism, Islam, and Hindu) when you take out the physical nature of a spiritual faith, it means nothing.

I really wish you understood this. Most people do.

Jesus was always trying to convey inner truths and so He often used nature to try to portray His meanings but from my reading He did not mean for the outward symbols of the inner reality to become worshiped or seen as part of the inner reality itself.

Outward symbols are not wrong. They are purely cultural. If you don't agree with what is literally written in The Bible, how do you believe in christianity? Maybe Bahai version but certainty not Christianity as defined by culture and belief from Jewish, Roman, to all the other cultures derived from their travels in Acts.

It just seems like my telling you two and two is four but Bahai insist its five. Don't know why, but it's interesting to note.

So water was never ever an essential ingredient for Baptism, belief in Jesus, just used to convey the necessity of of being clean inwardly too. The purpose of baptism was to commit one self to Christ,

Water and Spirit was required for baptism. Your faith focuses on spirit. Christianity does not. You guys have different belief systems. You cannot change what's written in scripture. It's not symbolic.

Baha’is use enrollment cards which one signs. But that doesn’t make him/her a true or real Bahá’í. It’s just the outward commitment used so we know who is a Bahá’í. But one can believe in Baha’u’llah and be a Baha’i without a card just as anyone can be a Christian without having water poured on them.

My point exactly. Just Christians are more serious about it, I guess. They take "enrollment cards" seriously as a confirmation of being christian. It's not just signing a card and believing. It's a whole lifestyle of visual and spiritual living all together. It's not one time and it's not thrown aside and stack up like cards.

If you can't see the physical nature of Christianity, that does not mean it does not exist. You just can't see it in relation to your own physical rituals that express the spiritual part of your faith. If you want to look at what you two have in common

Stop with the politics and look at the spiritual nature of these physical things instead. Maybe go to another house of worship or visit another country, I guess. I don't know. You'd have to be culturally sensitive and willing to interact to understand why the two are inseparable.