How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Its an excellent question, so thank you.

The logical starting point for my exploring Buddhism is Japanese culture as the connection is established through marriage and my wife's Japanese ancestors. That is a real connection. I'm not bound to accept the teachings of any one Buddhist tradition and wouldn't expect to find a perfect tradition. Eventually pure land Buddhism will disappoint me, but is that not part of the journey? I will develop a better understanding of my Faith's roots as knowledge and insights unfold.

My strongest connection to Christianity is through the Baptists. That's the church I was part of prior to becoming a Baha'i and its the church that is a large part of the medical centre where I do volunteer work. It doesn't matter that they have beliefs that are very different from what Baha'is believe.

Hmm. Any Buddhist sect is worth following. Pure Land, Nichiren, Zen, and others are traditions just as others. Now wonder you know the bible. Baptist are real bible oriented. If you do look at the older traditions of Buddhism, you would have to kinda take off Bahai glasses. The further back I noticed, the less mystical and more experiential.

Thank you for answering my question

 

[siti]

My purpose is to state that the Bible is essentially a Book written to bring man closer to God, to improve and foster the spiritual life of man. It is book centred on the spiritual life.

John 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing, the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus said His Words were ‘spirit and life’ not physical water.

The thief in the cross with Christ who repented. Jesus said He would be in heaven with Him yet He wasn’t baptised with water? How is it possible that a man i baptised can still enter heaven?
Because it’s not a requirement. It was only a symbol used to convey inner cleanliness is required to become a true believer.

And then there’s this.

John 6:35

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Thus Christ expresses “coming to him” as eating; and “believing in him” as drinking. To eat is to draw near to Him, and to drink is to believe in Him.

Was Jesus was a walking and talking loaf of bread?

This is another of many symbolic terms used to portray inner truths.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38

The water in Baptism is only a reminder or symbol to be pure in heart. Otherwise earthy water cannot cleanse sins.

The importance of baptism is belief. There are many instances in the Bible where people were ‘baptised’ without water as it was not essential just a reminder.


(where is Baptism a requirement in the verses below to be saved? Eternal life, everlasting life, being saved and not perishing are promised for ‘believing in him’ not being baptized)

John 3 15-17

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Baptism was just one method of proving membership as a Christian but not obligatory and you had to believe first or you couldn’t be baptized.

Acts 8 36-38

Acts 8:36-37
[36] Eventually the chariot passed a body of water beside the road.

The Ethiopian: Since there is water here, is there anything that might prevent me from being ceremonially washed through baptism and identified as a disciple of Jesus? [37]

Philip: [If you believe in your heart that Jesus the Anointed is God's Son, then nothing can stop you. The Ethiopian said that he believed.]

It was clearly an initiation ceremony so as to be identified as a Christian but note that the Ethiopian had to believe first to be initiated. The belief not the water was the requirement.

I gave you 81 verses about water baptism - you reply with a handful of verses that are nothing whatsoever to do with subject under discussion and one that supports my point not yours.

 

[CG Didymus]

There were statues of Jesus and Mary. Everyone prayed to them. As a child every Catholic Church had statues of Jesus, Mary and often Joseph too.

I attended a few parishes and it was the same in each.

But the church taught me about Jesus Life and Teachings which in the end helped me to recognise Baha’u’llah because it says ‘my sheep will know my voice’ and so when I heard Baha’u’llah’s Words and Teachings and matched them with Jesus Words and Teachings they were a perfect match!

But I was lucky and able to somehow break with traditions and sacraments which in turn led me to be open enough to accept the truth. But I fully understand a person who is attached to these things would be very protective and defensive about letting them go.

I was an atheist for a good 10 years, just as long as I was a devout catholic and opposed religion and God just as much as I had previously believed in it.

My dear mother, who was a devout catholic, recognised Baha’u’llah’s Words to be the same as Christ’s and accepted Him also.

What do you think of Protestants? They broke away from the man-made traditions and tried to be true to the New Testament teachings. But that is still a long way from what the Baha'i Faith teaches. So they feel they are open to the truth and guidance of the Holy Spirit and the New Testament.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

In addition to my other questions, did you say something like this...

"Dear statue of Mary. Block of stone, can you help me know jesus more. I love you statue mary. Thank you. Amen"?

Did you pray to a block of cement?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@loverofhumanity

In addition to my other questions, did you say something like this...

"Dear statue of Mary. Block of stone, can you help me know jesus more. I love you statue mary. Thank you. Amen"?

Did you pray to a block of cement?

That is secret, knowing that it is but a symbol.

Even if you had a picture of Christ, it is still but a picture and you will not know Christ or God by looking at it, or thinking it can aid you in the knowledge of Christ or God.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is secret, knowing that it is but a symbol.

Even if you had a picture of Christ, it is still but a picture and you will not know Christ or God by looking at it, or thinking it can aid you in the knowledge of Christ or God.

Regards Tony

Do you think catholics don't know this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you think catholics don't know this?

Thus Baha'u'llah has said those practices are no longer needed. We now know the intent.

New laws for the new day has never stopped anybody in the past from practicing how they wish to. Those that see change is needed, embrace the new concepts that may aid in that change and work towards he given goal.

The Sermon here on Sunday here was about the Loaves and the Fishes and thus the vital importance of the emblems they would then partake of in the sacrment.

They then partake of the bread and the wine while I say it in heart. No issue really.

I see that the point is now made.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you think catholics don't know this?

P/s Before my last reply missed this.

I have been on a Catholic Forum where this was discussed and some say the bread and the wine change literally to blood and wine when they partake of it, so no some do not know this.

Transubstantiation

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thus Baha'u'llah has said those practices are no longer needed. We now know the intent.

New laws for the new day has never stopped anybody in the past from practicing how they wish to. Those that see change is needed, embrace the new concepts that may aid in that change and work towards he given goal.

The Sermon here on Sunday here was about the Loaves and the Fishes and thus the vital importance of the emblems they would then partake of in the sacrment.

They then partake of the bread and the wine while I say it in heart. No issue really.

I see that the point is now made.

Regards Tony

You dont think catholics know what you said in your last post?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

P/s Before my last reply missed this.

I have been on a Catholic Forum where this was discussed and some say the bread and the wine change literally to blood and wine when they partake of it, so no some do not know this.

Transubstantiation

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

I know what transubstiation is.

Do you actually believe Catholics think the wine and bread are Actually blood and flesh!!???

The priest laughed when I said "we need to talk".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know what transubstiation is.

Do you actually believe Catholics think the wine and bread are Actually blood and flesh!!???

The priest laughed when I said "we need to talk".

Go to CAF and ask that question, it will be comfirmed.

Otherwise Please read the link. If you would like to rebuttle the information given on the link, then you have confirmed what has been offered.

It is a wonderful day Carlita

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Go to CAF and ask that question.

Otherwise Please read the link. If you would like to rebuttle the information given on the link, then you have confirmed what has been offered.

It is a wonderful day Carlita

Regards Tony

Tony. I know, experienced, and believe in transubstatiation.

It is Not foriegn. The difference is I was a convert and have no bias and negativity over it.

Again.

I talked with real priest in person and real catholics in person and Im around nothing but christians both catholic and protestant.

If you actually believe they see blood and flesh, then Id be more concerned over why you think that. The priest told me that is totally rediculous. My long life Catholic friend since infancy was deeply insulted when I asked her if she REALLY saw blood and flesh.

This and the statue debate is rediculous. I dont need to go online.

I experienced it.

Do you REALLY believe catholics see and eat blood and flesh?

Literally.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do you think of Protestants? They broke away from the man-made traditions and tried to be true to the New Testament teachings. But that is still a long way from what the Baha'i Faith teaches. So they feel they are open to the truth and guidance of the Holy Spirit and the New Testament.

Baha’u’llah teaches we are all one human family despite our beliefs. He says we are the fruits of one tree and the leaves of one branch.

So leaving theological debates aside for a moment, all people whether catholic, Protestant or no religion we consider our brothers and sisters - unconditionally.

Yes we come here and debate this and debate that but people in real life come first. I don’t see us as anything but one drop in an ocean of beautiful human beings including everyone here.

It’s just a debating forum so we debate but you are all precious because you are human. That’s the real bottom line.

We are learning to try and appreciate all humanity, to be prejudice free. We Baha’is are far from being free from prejudice and bias.

But by coming here it often forces us to confront our own weaknesses and try and deal with them. So it doesn’t matter what you or anyone believe or don’t believe. We must learn to welcome and see you as part of one human family unconditionally. Sounds nice but far from easy.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony. I know, experienced, and believe in transubstatiation.

CAF was an experience you would love then. Post such as these;

"As I said before, I would take Scripture over the 39 Articles. Holy Scripture is very clear about the Body and Blood of Christ being "true food" and "true drink." We cannot ignore John Chapter 6.

John 6:
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Remember, being raised to eternal life and Christ abiding in us and us in Him is connected to consuming His Body and Blood.

When the Jews asked how Jesus could give us His flesh to eat, it would have been the perfect time for Jesus to say this is symbolic or this is only a Spiritual eating. That wasn't the case.

John 6: 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Instead---Jesus said His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink.

John 6:
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

This was a hard saying for many disciples, who turned back and no longer followed Jesus.

John 6:
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

How does one eat the true Flesh of Christ and drink His true Blood, if not through the Holy Eucharist?

Peace,
Anna"

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

I gave you 81 verses about water baptism - you reply with a handful of verses that are nothing whatsoever to do with subject under discussion and one that supports my point not yours.

Siti I’m not disagreeing with water baptism. I’m only saying that without faith and belief in Jesus the water alone can’t do anything.

Some of the passages quoted especially about the Ethipion who wanted to become a Christian asked Phillip when he saw water and was told he could be baptized if he really truly believed meaning only water alone is insufficient for entrance into Christianity.

And the thief in the cross. He was told he would go to heaven yet he wasn’t baptized at all. So there are instances where belief has been accepted without baptism.

Either way true belief in Jesus was deemed necessary in order to be baptized.

So my understanding is that one can become a Christian without baptism with water but one cannot become a Christian only with water and no belief in Jesus which us why it is also said that baptism could be by the Holy Spirit or fire. The fire of the love of God of course.

I don’t see the Bible as a rigid inflexible Book but allowing for different circumstances such as the thief on the cross.

I don’t believe there are extreme views in the Bible when you look at it as a whole. If we only look at passages regarding water then we will only see the baptism by water perspective. But baptism by fire and the Holy Spirit is acceptable too as is no baptism at all only just pure belief like the thief on the cross.

When you look at the entire picture I think we can see the Bible is very flexible not rigid.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

CAF was an experience you would love then. Post such as these;

"As I said before, I would take Scripture over the 39 Articles. Holy Scripture is very clear about the Body and Blood of Christ being "true food" and "true drink." We cannot ignore John Chapter 6.

John 6:
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

Remember, being raised to eternal life and Christ abiding in us and us in Him is connected to consuming His Body and Blood.

When the Jews asked how Jesus could give us His flesh to eat, it would have been the perfect time for Jesus to say this is symbolic or this is only a Spiritual eating. That wasn't the case.

John 6: 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Instead---Jesus said His flesh is true food and His blood is true drink.

John 6:
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

This was a hard saying for many disciples, who turned back and no longer followed Jesus.

John 6:
66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

How does one eat the true Flesh of Christ and drink His true Blood, if not through the Holy Eucharist?

Peace,
Anna"

Regards Tony

Tony. If you want a discussion, stop offering and discuss.

Do you really believe catholics actually drink blood and eat flesh?

 

[loverofhumanity]

But scripture and the CCC doesnt teach praying to statues. Do you remember priest telling you, you are praying to statues?

The hugest parish in our country is near me. They have three floors of statues and three areas where Mass is held. People go to the statues and pray to jesus, mary, or a saint they are called to. It looks like they are praying to statues because the statues "symbolize" the people it represents. The reason it is not worshiped because its a symbol. Catholics worship not a representation (aka idol) of him.

I dont know about individual christians. Its not wrong to use statues as a means to remember god. What scripture says is not use anything to replace him like the golden calf. No catholic worships the "calf" like in the OT. Unless worship for you involves symbolism rather than just worshiping the person it symbolizes?

That and why would you think some things in scripture are symbolic but when catholics adorn the representation of christs no longer symbolic but literal?

Carlita. The truth is Catholics overall are very good people and regardless of traditions or cultures I am always their brother and they are always welcome in my home. It’s not a big deal what they do or don’t do. They are my brothers and sisters.

I owe my happiness to those who instilled in me love for Jesus and the Bible. So really I don’t want to have anything but praise for them. Although we debate statues and sacraments I want to make clear that I love Catholics and think they’re beautiful people and see them as family. The debate is just a debate but doesn’t affect my true admiration for them as noble people.

It doesn’t matter if they have a thousand sacraments or pray before a hundred statues, all that really matters is we love each other right? That’s what I think is truly important not these minor things.

Love rules.

 

[siti]

@loverofhumanity - it is a very long way from flexibility - such as Jesus allowing the thief on the cross - who became a believer and had no opportunity to engage in any ritual before he died - to be saved without baptism (if he was not baptized but we have no idea about that anyway) and denying that Jesus approved of or commanded baptism when he clearly did. You say the Bible is not a book of extremes, but you are taking an extreme example - tantamount to a deathbed conversion - and using that to deny the validity of the normal procedure.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita. The truth is Catholics overall are very good people and regardless of traditions or cultures I am always their brother and they are always welcome in my home. It’s not a big deal what they do or don’t do. They are my brothers and sisters.

I owe my happiness to those who instilled in me love for Jesus and the Bible. So really I don’t want to have anything but praise for them. Although we debate statues and sacraments I want to make clear that I love Catholics and think they’re beautiful people and see them as family. The debate is just a debate but doesn’t affect my true admiration for them as noble people.

It doesn’t matter if they have a thousand sacraments or pray before a hundred statues, all that really matters is we love each other right? That’s what I think is truly important not these minor things.

Love rules.

What I found before I was catholic that many catholics really really take their religion to heart on a literal basis. In other words, give catholic history and sterotypes, they are offended easily. I thought at one time I wanted to marry. My roman catholic friend and I were talking about it. I was never the marrying kid type. So, I said if I get married can you come to my wedding. (I will marry a woman)

She goes: That's like murder.

She compared murder to marriage based on a person's genatiles.

Many Catholics take sacraments very seriously. It becomes them. I didnt understand this until I was confirmed. Praying to statues. Worshiping Mary. Eating real flesh and blood. Confessing to a priest. So much bigatry.

It doesnt just insult the religion but it insults catholics who practice it. While we cant change our opinions to compromise the happiness of others (well, outside of Mahayana Buddhism), but we can be sensitive to how we direct our opinions.

If I picked two arguments that is true out of the false stereotypes is Catholics Do worship concecrated bread and wine (they are idols). They do pray to saints. Everything else is silly. I really think to get it you'd have to see the Church differently. Come in with a fresh mind and understand the sacraments physically not just spiritually.

I dont know. Thats probably like my convincing myself there is a god. I did give it a shot. Only through jesus though. Dont know about the father. Im not trinitarian.

But thanks...I went to a baptist church and the whole sermon was on paganism and free masons. They knew i was catholic and tried to get me to see the truth. Thats what I dont like. Opinions are cool. That, well... if I had a ride I would have walked out.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is secret, knowing that it is but a symbol.

Even if you had a picture of Christ, it is still but a picture and you will not know Christ or God by looking at it, or thinking it can aid you in the knowledge of Christ or God.

Regards Tony

Tony. If Catholics pray to statues, they are praying to a block of cement. I have never heard a catholic pray to cement statue. They pray to Who that statue represents.

Since its symbolism, how is the catholic wrong?


Asusuming you think it is since I dont know your position of the matter.