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Scientism as a legitimate philosophy

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nobody has any doubt that science has emerged as one of the most important methods by which humans can gain knowledge about the world and themselves in the recent centuries. Thus the philosophical view of taking whatever it is that sciences are saying about the world as the only thing that is prima facie true, and doing metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy of life etc. based on that stance seems a perfectly legitimate enterprise. At least no less legitimate than other philosophical stances like materialism, idealism, theism, monism, dualism, nihilism etc. This approach, I will call philosophical scientism. Since science is always changing, scientism is also something that is redone as the consensus shifts, and there is no point where it will say, "this is it and there's nothing else." The only constant thing in it is that it takes whatever the scientific consensus is on a matter, as the truth and builds the philosophy out of it... and repeats this as consensus changes over time. It will also be very useful in enabling us to understand how philosophically complete or coherent the scientific understanding of the world at a given point is, and if one's own worldview (which may not be scientism) is consistent with scientific understanding, and if not, where the divergences lie.

What do you think?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think the risk is that the philosophy would require measurement of things which are beyond our scope to accurately measure. I think philosophy is MOST useful in filling the gaps between our ability to hard measure the outcomes of something.

Just my take though. There is at least some sense in using science to more consistently measure things which have traditionally been outside the common purvey of the sciences.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Science is constantly evolving as you have stated Sayak. What was true yesterday may not be true tomorrow, and vice versa. Using science as a foundation to build a philosophy upon doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It's like building a house on a sand foundation. The dynamic nature of the foundation will cause the house built on top of it to crumble. I am actually reminded of scripture that speaks of this very thing.

Matthew 7: 24-27

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Science is a useful tool, and I think it's probably best to keep it that way.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Science is constantly evolving as you have stated Sayak. What was true yesterday may not be true tomorrow, and vice versa. Using science as a foundation to build a philosophy upon doesn't sound like a good idea to me. It's like building a house on a sand foundation. The dynamic nature of the foundation will cause the house built on top of it to crumble. I am actually reminded of scripture that speaks of this very thing.

Matthew 7: 24-27

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Science is a useful tool, and I think it's probably best to keep it that way.
Why do you think being static is a good idea. What we want to build may not be a house but a car... or a spaceship.. that travels from ignorance to knowledge following the twisting paths of progressively uncovered ideas in science.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
What do you think?
Well I have been a student of paranormal subjects for decades now, and it has shown me how limited our current science is. I am pro-science but I think it is quite limited and I believe eastern (Vedic) and other traditions are ahead of science on many subjects.

I will probably need to wait for a future lifetime before I could become interested in philosophical scientism.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Why do you think being static is a good idea. What we want to build may not be a house but a car... or a spaceship.. that travels from ignorance to knowledge following the twisting paths of progressively uncovered ideas in science.

A person being static is not a good idea. Building upon a static foundation is though. If you can acknowledge the difference.

A machine or vehicle is a good analogy for what you propose. I'll give you props for that. :D There is not much else I can really say about the idea though. I just advise caution is all. It could work out great, or it could end terribly. But that is the risk we take with everything so, it is what it is.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well I have been a student of paranormal subjects for decades now, and it has shown me how limited our current science is. I am pro-science but I think it is quite limited and I believe eastern (Vedic) and other traditions are ahead of science on many subjects.

I will probably need to wait for a future lifetime before I could become interested in philosophical scientism.
Investigation of religious traditions is also a passion of mine. But I have time for both. :D
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
A person being static is not a good idea. Building upon a static foundation is though. If you can acknowledge the difference.

A machine or vehicle is a good analogy for what you propose. I'll give you props for that. :D There is not much else I can really say about the idea though. I just advise caution is all. It could work out great, or it could end terribly. But that is the risk we take with everything so, it is what it is.
Yes there are risks in everything. Traveling by a car, one may loose sight of the road and end up in a ditch. But, if the foundation of a static lighthouse of knowledge is not firm enough, as one tries to make it taller to see further, it may topple under its weight. :(:)
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Nothing is ever "True" in science; science just has "the best current explanation"

Which is why I advise caution using it as a basis for a philosophy.

In one of his last interviews Carl Sagan said "Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge." Which is kind of how I feel about the topic.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Which is why I advise caution using it as a basis for a philosophy.

In one of his last interviews Carl Sagan said "Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge." Which is kind of how I feel about the topic.
But one can't prove something to be definitely true outside of math and logic. If knowledge is tied to only definitive proofs, very little can be done philosophically or in any sphere of activity for that matter.

The philosophical scientism project says "If the current scientific consensus is the only thing that is true about the world one is in, then what kind of worldview it entails." The question is interesting even if the premise is wrong (for the most obvious reason of the continuous advance of science among other things).
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Nobody has any doubt that science has emerged as one of the most important methods by which humans can gain knowledge about the world and themselves in the recent centuries. Thus the philosophical view of taking whatever it is that sciences are saying about the world as the only thing that is prima facie true, and doing metaphysics, epistemology, philosophy of life etc. based on that stance seems a perfectly legitimate enterprise. At least no less legitimate than other philosophical stances like materialism, idealism, theism, monism, dualism, nihilism etc. This approach, I will call philosophical scientism. Since science is always changing, scientism is also something that is redone as the consensus shifts, and there is no point where it will say, "this is it and there's nothing else." The only constant thing in it is that it takes whatever the scientific consensus is on a matter, as the truth and builds the philosophy out of it... and repeats this as consensus changes over time. It will also be very useful in enabling us to understand how philosophically complete or coherent the scientific understanding of the world at a given point is, and if one's own worldview (which may not be scientism) is consistent with scientific understanding, and if not, where the divergences lie.

What do you think?
I think that you are fast forwarding to now in order to suggest this. This philosophical stance is missing many arguments to get to this point. As such it is using an appeal to authority in order to appeal to authority.

That seems redundant and slightly incoherent.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think that you are fast forwarding to now in order to suggest this. This philosophical stance is missing many arguments to get to this point. As such it is using an appeal to authority in order to appeal to authority.

That seems redundant and slightly incoherent.
Can you explain more?
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
But one can't prove something to be definitely true outside of math and logic. If knowledge is tied to only definitive proofs, very little can be done philosophically or in any sphere of activity for that matter.

The philosophical scientism project says "If the current scientific consensus is the only thing that is true about the world one is in, then what kind of worldview it entails." The question is interesting even if the premise is wrong (for the most obvious reason of the continuous advance of science among other things).

Hmmm, ok let me digest this for awhile and I'll get back to you. I have a lot of thoughts on this but they are disheveled and need some refining, so that the discussion may remain a discussion and not turn into a debate.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Do you think all scientific activity can be subsumed within Empiricism?
Yes. Though Empiricism has problems as well. What scientific activity cannot? Or why could it not?

While scientists can generate ideas outside the realm of observable, it is not recognized as valid "science" until a bridge connects it to observation.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes. Though Empiricism has problems as well. What scientific activity cannot? Or why could it not?

While scientists can generate ideas outside the realm of observable, it is not recognized as valid "science" until a bridge connects it to observation.
Whether or not scientific activity can be collapsed in Empiricism is itself a contentious topic. Also what other activities other than science should be included will also be contentious. These discussions are important, but science is easily recognizable as an institutional knowledge generating activity and hence a metaphysics based on science does not suffer from ambiguity.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Whether or not scientific activity can be collapsed in Empiricism is itself a contentious topic. Also what other activities other than science should be included will also be contentious. These discussions are important, but science is easily recognizable as an institutional knowledge generating activity and hence a metaphysics based on science does not suffer from ambiguity.
But what counts as knowledge? Saying something is easily recognizable does not make it so. My impression is that when asked how we know something is true, you answer science. But if I ask how do we know that science is true? You answer because science has helped us achieve x, y and z. This is then an appeal to authority for the purpose to appeal to authority. How does that make sense?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But what counts as knowledge? Saying something is easily recognizable does not make it so. My impression is that when asked how we know something is true, you answer science. But if I ask how do we know that science is true? You answer because science has helped us achieve x, y and z. This is then an appeal to authority for the purpose to appeal to authority. How does that make sense?
Your guess would be wrong. Scientific explanations are very useful, that is why it's pursued. I make no further claims regarding truth about science.
 
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