Did the true church ever vanish or completely fall away?

[Faithofchristian]

Revelations is a book of slaughter, fear and death. Scholars cannot agree on who even wrote it. I don't follow it because out of all the early Christian texts, it stands alone (except maybe the Apocalypse of Peter). It's a recruiting tool for Priests.

Revelations is a continuation of OT thought. It only works on the spiritually ignorant.

There you go again, showing your ignorance again.
Had you any idea what the book of Revelation is about, you say, killing and Slaughter,
As to how do you come by that out of the book of Revelation. That is to funny.

How do you people come up with such nonsense.ROFL

 

[Phantasman]

There you go again, showing your ignorance again.
Had you any idea what the book of Revelation is about, you say, killing and Slaughter,
As to how do you come by that out of the book of Revelation. That is to funny.

How do you people come up with such nonsense.ROFL

lol. Keep a watch out for giant scorpions.

A son of the living Father wouldn't read such malarkey. He breaks the bonds of fear.

Romans:
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1 John:
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I fear nothing, even death. I'll stick with the Gospel that teaches love. Enjoy your time reading of fear and torment.

 

[Faithofchristian]

lol. Keep a watch out for giant scorpions.

Your to funny, that you actually believe those are actually scorpions. ROFL

God uses scorpions to Represent People.

And the beast that comes up out of the sea, to Represent Nations and kingdom's of the world.
The sea, waters, Represents People and Multitudes and Nations and tongues. Revelation 17:15.

Revelation 13 Verse 10, "He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity, He that kills with the sword must be killed with the sword, Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"

What this Verse 10 is saying, He that is deceving, is being deceived himself and he doesn't even realize that he's being deceived.

The sword Repsents the word of God.
Ephesians 6:17--"And the sword of the Spirit, Which is the word of God"

Revelation 19:15--"And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword"
You don't actually believe a sword actually comes out of the mouth of Christ Jesus do you.No
The sword Repsents the word of God that comes out of the mouth of Christ Jesus.

Revelation 19:21--"And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse"
The sword here also Repsents the word of God.
You see God uses symbols to Represent many things throughout the book of Revelation.
Why does God do this, all because to confound those who think they are wise, to show them they are not as wise as they think they are. But to show the unlearned are wiser than the wise are. That's why.

A son of the living Father wouldn't read such malarkey. He breaks the bonds of fear.

Romans:
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1 John:
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I fear nothing, even death. I'll stick with the Gospel that teaches love. Enjoy your time reading of fear and torment.

 

[Phantasman]

The sword is what separates flesh (material) and spirit in it's understanding. Yes, the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit does not use parables in visions. It leads us to all truth through understanding.

John (and the rest of the Spirit filled apostles) interpreted the parables of Christ, not add to them.

Luke:
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Jesus had said this to his disciples.

Then I questioned him: "Lord how may we prophesy to those who ask us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us and who look to us to hear an oracle from us."
The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
The Lord said to me: "When you come to know what 'head' is, and that prophecy issues from the head, then understand what is the meaning of 'Its head was removed'. I first spoke with you in parables, and you did not understand. Now, in turn, I speak with you openly, and you do not perceive. But it is you who were to me a parable in parables and what is apparent in what are open.- Secret James

Use the "sword" for it's intended purpose. Every generation has been waiting for the apocalypse as well as a "rapture". Seeing them for what they are, is what sets man free through Christ. And you hear Jesus say "what is that to thee? Follow me"

Choose wisely. See the "good news" for all man (Gospel) and not the "news" of the slain and tormented. It's a healthier spiritual path of love, rather than fear.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The sword is what separates flesh (material) and spirit in it's understanding. Yes, the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit does not use parables in visions. It leads us to all truth through understanding.

John (and the rest of the Spirit filled apostles) interpreted the parables of Christ, not add to them.

Luke:
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Do you understand what Christ Jesus ment in that of Luke above, it's having Spiritual discernment of the word of God.

Jesus had said this to his disciples.

Then I questioned him: "Lord how may we prophesy to those who ask us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us and who look to us to hear an oracle from us."
The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
The Lord said to me: "When you come to know what 'head' is, and that prophecy issues from the head, then understand what is the meaning of 'Its head was removed'. I first spoke with you in parables, and you did not understand. Now, in turn, I speak with you openly, and you do not perceive. But it is you who were to me a parable in parables and what is apparent in what are open.- Secret James

Use the "sword" for it's intended purpose. Every generation has been waiting for the apocalypse as well as a "rapture". Seeing them for what they are, is what sets man free through Christ. And you hear Jesus say "what is that to thee? Follow me"

Choose wisely. See the "good news" for all man (Gospel) and not the "news" of the slain and tormented. It's a healthier spiritual path of love, rather than fear.

 

[Muffled]

In my trying to explain how it's possible for Jesus to be God.

Let's take a mannequin for instance that you see in stores, it's nothing more than a lifeless body.
Let's for say, that you step inside of the mannequin body and it came live, all because your inside of it.

This what God did with the body of Jesus, the body of Jesus was lifeless. Until God step inside of the body of Jesus to bring life to the body.
This is how God is Jesus in the flesh body.

All God did was make himself a body and then step inside the body, to bring life to the body of Jesus.
Therefore you have Jesus is God in the flesh.

I believe you are in error. Jesus was conceived and that means He was a living being. It took the entry of the Holy Spirit to make Him a living soul.

 

[Muffled]

But what's missing here is one very important fact, namely that "church" (ecclesia) means "community", and that community was headed by God, Jesus, the apostles, and the leaders that the apostles chose to succeed them. IOW, to use Paul's words, the church was "one body", not a "remnant". Even though there were many local churches over time, they were tied together with demands, first by the apostles themselves, and later by their appointees, that the church had to act as "one body".

This is why when you get into the 2nd century, the church leaders wrote, not just to their own congregations but to also to other congregations, with the Bishop of Rome being a "first amongst equals" in regards to other bishops. However, that bishop did not have any real binding power back then, and because "heretical" churches began to sprout up, including their use of other "scriptures", who does the average person believe with all these groups claiming that they're right and all others were bogus?

This mass of confusion led to the calling of "councils" to try and keep the church cohesive and on target as far as teachings go, including the eventual selection of the Christian canon starting in the second half of the 4th century and extending into the 5th. The Bible you use was selected by that church that could trace its leadership back to the apostles through what theologians call "apostolic succession". Without that being done, Christianity would have fragmented so bad that its survival might have been at stake.

I believe Paul was talking about the true church. The Roman Catholic church at some point developed non-Christian doctrine but that does not mean there were not true believers present in its midst. There are always some who remain faithful. How about Ignatius of Loyola?

 

[Muffled]

But what, specifically, does that mean? There have always been believers, people who are genuine in their devotion to Jesus Christ and who live as He instructed us to live? Or does it mean that there has always been an institutional church that has doctrines that would be fully recognizable by Jesus Christ as the same exact ones He taught?

I believe there has never been a church that taught perfectly, the doctrines that Jesus taught.

I believe there has always been some who led their lives according to the essential teaching of Jesus.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe you are in error. Jesus was conceived and that means He was a living being. It took the entry of the Holy Spirit to make Him a living soul.

Yes, Jesus was a living being, but who was inside of the body of Jesus is what counts.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, Jesus was a living being, but who was inside of the body of Jesus is what counts.

I believe if Jesus had died in an illusory body instead of a real one then He wouldn't have proven His love for me.

 

[Phantasman]

I believe Paul was talking about the true church. The Roman Catholic church at some point developed non-Christian doctrine but that does not mean there were not true believers present in its midst. There are always some who remain faithful. How about Ignatius of Loyola?

Man became a living soul (natural man) from the creator (Genesis). Adam became a quickening Spirit by accepting it from the Tree of Life.

1 Corinth:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Christ came to reveal the truth of the spirit (small s)

John:
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jesus was the first to receive the Spirit (capital S, Holy Spirit) than give it to man (for the first time).

John:
(But this spake he of the Spirit (capital S), which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The Holy Ghost is what made Jesus the Christ, by the Chrism (which is what Christ means).

Paul used the word Christ as one who is Chrismed with the Holy Ghost. So did Jesus.

The Gospel teaches us how to become Christs, as Jesus was/is. You cannot become a son of God without it (Chrism/Holy Spirit). To teach differently is to teach antiChrist. AntiChrism. We accept our spiritual mother over our mother of flesh. Luke 14:26

If you follow the early orthodox, they see a different father, and even the priest. And Jesus said we (as Christians) have only one father, God, as well as one mother, the Holy Spirit.

Matthew:
46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Mark:
For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

The orthodox lie when they say Mary is the mother (of God) and bow to her statue. They are blinded by the flesh and the father of it. Jesus said to Mary (behold your son) meaning "see the result of the flesh that makes flesh".

 

[Faithofchristian]

I believe if Jesus had died in an illusory body instead of a real one then He wouldn't have proven His love for me.

But you still haven't proven, as to who was inside of the body of Jesus.

 

[metis]

I believe Paul was talking about the true church.

He clearly was talking about the apostolic church that continued on long after the apostles died through their appointees and is still present today.

The Roman Catholic church at some point developed non-Christian doctrine but that does not mean there were not true believers present in its midst.

Such as? The apostolic church had no choice but to evolve with the times, much like Paul himself made statements that simply do not appear anywhere in the gospels as the early church had to make some adjustments due to new challenges. No religion nor any religious denomination is static, nor should they be. Like us humans when we grow, changes are often necessary in order to adjust to new challenges. The apostolic church is and was no exception.

There are always some who remain faithful. How about Ignatius of Loyola?

What about him?

 

[Phantasman]

But you still haven't proven, as to who was inside of the body of Jesus.

Nothing. The body became the men and women who ate from it, namely the saints (church). "His" flesh profited nothing (for him) and understanding (glorification) for those who followed him.

Jesus Christ is based on faith and hope. Not proof.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Nothing. The body became the men and women who ate from it, namely the saints (church). "His" flesh profited nothing (for him) and understanding (glorification) for those who followed him.

Jesus Christ is based on faith and hope. Not proof.

So explain exactly how Jesus is God in the
flesh. Exactly how does this work ?

 

[Phantasman]

So explain exactly how Jesus is God in the
flesh. Exactly how does this work ?

God was his spirit, not his flesh. Flesh cannot inherit (the kingdom of) God. Flesh was never perfect (as God is perfect) because it was created by imperfection.

Romans:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law(s) of Moses were of flesh. The law(s) of the Spirit (capital S) is perfected in love.

It defines the Word. Grace and truth as flesh, but not as blood and flesh as other men. His body grace and truth, his blood the Spirit from God. He was alive, yet we were dead. The spirit is what makes us alive. The flesh profits nothing.

John:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gospel of Thomas:
(108) Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

The things that are hidden, are still hidden from the orthodox. They reverted to seeing the OT god of flesh.

Only through spiritual understanding can man die, then live. To others, they live, then die.

Romans:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The difference is being "led" by the Spirit. Did man tell you not to seek non canon scripture, or did the Spirit?

It's all about who you trust to reveal truth. But for sure, it's not in following the flesh, in any term.

 

[Faithofchristian]

God was his spirit, not his flesh. Flesh cannot inherit (the kingdom of) God. Flesh was never perfect (as God is perfect) because it was created by imperfection.

Romans:
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law(s) of Moses were of flesh. The law(s) of the Spirit (capital S) is perfected in love.

It defines the Word. Grace and truth as flesh, but not as blood and flesh as other men. His body grace and truth, his blood the Spirit from God. He was alive, yet we were dead. The spirit is what makes us alive. The flesh profits nothing.

John:

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Gospel of Thomas:
(108) Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

The things that are hidden, are still hidden from the orthodox. They reverted to seeing the OT god of flesh.

Only through spiritual understanding can man die, then live. To others, they live, then die.

Romans:
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

The difference is being "led" by the Spirit. Did man tell you not to seek non canon scripture, or did the Spirit?

It's all about who you trust to reveal truth. But for sure, it's not in following the flesh, in any term.

While Christ Jesus was here on earth, he was flesh and blood. And God being inside of the body of Jesus, There you have God in the flesh body of Jesus.

 

[Phantasman]

While Christ Jesus was here on earth, he was flesh and blood. And God being inside of the body of Jesus, There you have God in the flesh body of Jesus.

Where did the flesh go? What was the blood?

1 Corinth:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John:
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

You argue for the flesh, because you are of the flesh.

You see Jesus being more like you, than you being more like him.

You don't see his flesh and blood as something to eat and drink. You are trapped in a lie of flesh.

Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness.- Gospel of Philip

You are too influenced by the material things to see the spiritual knowledge. The only thing that will never fade away (from this Aeon) is his words (understanding). The FLESH profits nothing. If Jesus was in material flesh, he was imperfect.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Where did the flesh go? What was the blood?

1 Corinth:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John:
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

You argue for the flesh, because you are of the flesh.

You see Jesus being more like you, than you being more like him.

You don't see his flesh and blood as something to eat and drink. You are trapped in a lie of flesh.

While Jesus was here on earth, he was of flesh and blood, Then after Jesus death and Resurrection, Jesus is now of the Spiritual body.

What is it that you don't understand what is Spiritual and what is not Spiritual ?

Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness.- Gospel of Philip

You are too influenced by the material things to see the spiritual knowledge. The only thing that will never fade away (from this Aeon) is his words (understanding). The FLESH profits nothing. If Jesus was in material flesh, he was imperfect.

Are you freaking kidding me, Jesus sure wasn't of the Spiritual body. Not until after his death and Resurrection.
Jesus was the perfect Lamb offering of God.
As to where do you get, if Jesus was of flesh and blood, that Jesus as being imperfect.
Jesus was perfect in flesh and blood and in the Spiritual body.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Where did the flesh go? What was the blood?

As to where do you think it went, you're good at quoting scripture, but have the lack of knowledge to understand what the Scriptures will say.

Jesus was born of Flesh and blood, Then after his death and Resurrection, Jesus became Spirit with his Spiritual body. Which is not of flesh and blood.

1 Corinth:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

John:
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

You argue for the flesh, because you are of the flesh.

You see Jesus being more like you, than you being more like him.

You don't see his flesh and blood as something to eat and drink. You are trapped in a lie of flesh.

Jesus took them all by stealth, for he did not appear as he was, but in the manner in which they would be able to see him. He appeared to them all. He appeared to the great as great. He appeared to the small as small. He appeared to the angels as an angel, and to men as a man. Because of this, his word hid itself from everyone. Some indeed saw him, thinking that they were seeing themselves, but when he appeared to his disciples in glory on the mount, he was not small. He became great, but he made the disciples great, that they might be able to see him in his greatness.- Gospel of Philip

You are too influenced by the material things to see the spiritual knowledge. The only thing that will never fade away (from this Aeon) is his words (understanding). The FLESH profits nothing. If Jesus was in material flesh, he was imperfect.