My Issues With Romans One

[idav]

I have a quite a few issues with Romans chapter One of the Bible. Many of you may have heard of few of my gripes. As I don't want to focus on any sort of appeal to authority this is about who wrote it.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to read any of he verses.

Romans 1:1-13 is pure hubris IMO but we can discuss that further if you like. Who is claiming Paul an apostle and why is it assumed Paul would be the greatest thing to hit Rome, because he has followers?


I don't have much issue with 14-17. Faith is for everyone etc.

In Romans 1:18 however it quickly becomes about god showing its wrath on the wicked. This claim in this verse however says more than evil wickedness, it claims that god shows wrath because of "godlessness and wickedness" and that "truth is suppressed by wickedness". All this is an interesting claim regarding. The part that really gets interesting is in Romans 1:24 where it says, "therefore god gave them to sinful desires". This IMO seems problematic for many reasons. First off it makes god the one creating evil for being rejected. That actually supports other scripture that god hardens hearts.

Continuing in its rejection of "godlessness" Romans 1:28-29 says that god turns those depraved people to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity"

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?

 

[DavidFirth]

I notice you failed to mention Romans 1:20. One of my faves.

 

[idav]

I notice you failed to mention Romans 1:20. One of my faves.

Thats one of the more wilder claims that no true atheist really exists.

 

[Enoch07]

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?

He is not mad at atheist for denying the truth per say. What he does get mad about is atheist (or anyone for that matter, even Christians) that denies the truth by changing His word, twisting His original message to serve their own purposes, instead of letting the truth be heard in its original form.

I come across this quite often here on RF, atheist and "biblical" scholars who read the bible with no discernment at all, and deduce the craziest crap then spew it out into the world as hateful lies and misconceptions.

As for why He allows these wicked people to do this? The answer is free will. They are allowed to do it because of their free will. This also test the faith and patience of believers. Gives us a chance to spread the (hopefully*) correct word of God.

Why does God allow for homosexuality if He does not approve of it? Again it falls under free will. As does any action, regardless if the the Lord approves or not. Just as He loves me despite me doing stuff He does not approve of, He loves everyone else as well. Even them wicked athiest! Which is why we have salvation through Christ.


*I use hopefully to account for human error. Even the most intelligent and wise person is still prone to human error. Also I am not perfect myself, and may even have something wrong myself in this post. I am not perfect, just doing the best I can. Which really is all the Lord wants.

 

[idav]

He is not mad at atheist for denying the truth per say. What he does get mad about is atheist (or anyone for that matter, even Christians) that denies the truth by changing His word, twisting His original message to serve their own purposes, instead of letting the truth be heard in its original form.

I come across this quite often here on RF, atheist and "biblical" scholars who read the bible with no discernment at all, and deduce the craziest crap then spew it out into the world as hateful lies and misconceptions.

As for why He allows these wicked people to do this? The answer is free will. They are allowed to do it because of their free will. This also test the faith and patience of believers. Gives us a chance to spread the (hopefully*) correct word of God.

Why does God allow for homosexuality if He does not approve of it? Again it falls under free will. As does any action, regardless if the the Lord approves or not. Just as He loves me despite me doing stuff He does not approve of, He loves everyone else as well. Even them wicked athiest! Which is why we have salvation through Christ.


*I use hopefully to account for human error. Even the most intelligent and wise person is still prone to human error. Also I am not perfect myself, and may even have something wrong myself in this post. I am not perfect, just doing the best I can. Which really is all the Lord wants.

Far as I can tell Romans is saying we don't have free will, that's one of the issues. God is literally hardening their hearts, whoever they is.

 

[Enoch07]

Far as I can tell Romans is saying we don't have free will, that's one of the issues. God is literally hardening their hearts, whoever they is.

Free will is everything. It is the whole point of being here on Earth in flesh bodies. That means that some will get it wrong, even those with good intentions.

I am a sinner. I have done drugs, adultery (unbeknownst to me at the time, but still guilty), gluttony (drugs/alchohol/sex/food/coveting/too many to list), I have stolen items (in my youth), I have hurt people physically for both business and pleasure (in my youth), I have rage issues due to physical/mental/sexual abuse in my youth, jeez I could go on all day. All because of free will. I could chose to be angry and blame God, but these are my problems.

So instead, I chose to not do drugs/alchohol/crazy sex orgies/steal/rage out of control. I use self discipline to keep myself in check, and a lot of prayer for not only strength to resist sin, but also forgiveness for when I do slip up time to time.

 

[idav]

Free will is everything. It is the whole point of being here on Earth in flesh bodies. That means that some will get it wrong, even those with good intentions.

I'm not saying anyone is perfect but it sure wouldn't seem very fair for a god to make things harder than they already are.

 

[Enoch07]

I'm not saying anyone is perfect but it sure wouldn't seem very fair for a god to make things harder than they already are.

I understand. That is where my faith comes into play. I know God will make it right in the end. And all the abuse and terrible things we as humans do to each other will erased, and we will never have to endure them ever again. It just would be nice, if we could discipline ourselves enough to cut down on that misery in the mean time.

 

[idav]

I understand. That is where my faith comes into play. I know God will make it right in the end. And all the abuse and terrible things we as humans do to each other will erased, and we will never have to endure them ever again. It just would be nice, if we could discipline ourselves enough to cut down on that misery in the mean time.

We can certainly agree evil exists and most humanity agree on which things are most heinous so I don't have to go into that. I think I'm disagreeing with Romans on the reasoning for reason for wickedness, it makes it sound like god is making someone wicked over a theological conundrum. Me I'm conservative morally but socially liberal. Not like I don't believe in police though there certainly should be limits, probably limits we can agree with outside of Romans, hopefully.

 

[Skwim]

I notice you failed to mention Romans 1:20. One of my faves.

Mine too.

Romans 1:20
20 There are things about God that people cannot see—his eternal power and all that makes him God. But since the beginning of the world, those things have been easy for people to understand. They are made clear in what God has made. So people have no excuse for the evil they do.
​

Hmmm . . . . . it appears Paul forgot the Latter Prophets. Yeshayahu in particular.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

.

​

 

[Enoch07]

We can certainly agree evil exists and most humanity agree on which things are most heinous so I don't have to go into that. I think I'm disagreeing with Romans on the reasoning for reason for wickedness, it makes it sound like god is making someone wicked over a theological conundrum. Me I'm conservative morally but socially liberal. Not like I don't believe in police though there certainly should be limits, probably limits we can agree with outside of Romans, hopefully.

He can and has hardened hearts in the Bible (OT), to prove a point. I have a personal opinion that God did make some people atheist on purpose or at least hardened their heart to make them swing that way. Because atheist can be useful in keeping ideological zealotry in check. But I also could be wrong on that so don't quote me on it. Its just a personal theory of mine.

 

[idav]

He can and has hardened hearts in the Bible (OT), to prove a point. I have a personal opinion that God did make some people atheist on purpose or at least hardened their heart to make them swing that way. Because atheist can be useful in keeping ideological zealotry in check. But I also could be wrong on that so don't quote me on it. Its just a personal theory of mine.

Romans 1 have anything to do with that theory?

Ever looked at the science on it?

 

[Enoch07]

Romans 1 have anything to do with that theory?

Ever looked at the science on it?

There's a few passages that make me think that. Though I am too tired to go research and find them again. Again it's not a certainty just a theory.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have a quite a few issues with Romans chapter One of the Bible. Many of you may have heard of few of my gripes. As I don't want to focus on any sort of appeal to authority this is about who wrote it.

Here is a link for anyone who wants to read any of he verses.

Romans 1:1-13 is pure hubris IMO but we can discuss that further if you like. Who is claiming Paul an apostle and why is it assumed Paul would be the greatest thing to hit Rome, because he has followers?


I don't have much issue with 14-17. Faith is for everyone etc.

In Romans 1:18 however it quickly becomes about god showing its wrath on the wicked. This claim in this verse however says more than evil wickedness, it claims that god shows wrath because of "godlessness and wickedness" and that "truth is suppressed by wickedness". All this is an interesting claim regarding. The part that really gets interesting is in Romans 1:24 where it says, "therefore god gave them to sinful desires". This IMO seems problematic for many reasons. First off it makes god the one creating evil for being rejected. That actually supports other scripture that god hardens hearts.

Continuing in its rejection of "godlessness" Romans 1:28-29 says that god turns those depraved people to "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity"

All this doesn't sound like a god that gives people choices but gets angry at atheists for "denying the truth" and turns them into the most wicked people. Why would God release these evil people on the world allowing such "evil wickedness"? Also why would God turn women and men to lesbian and homosexuals if it's so incorrect Romans 1:26-27? That really sounds like the writers obsession with what Romans were doing.

Sorry if it's a little long. Thoughts? Objections?

My interest in this is for helping those Christians who, like me, are trying to figure all of this stuff out. I feel that there is a lifegiving impulse in Christianity which is being smothered today by commercialism and pastorism. There is a radical freedom here that is available, and there is a power for the common person.

Romans 1:18-29 I truly believe is not what you are describing. I will attempt to paraphrase it, line by line, removing if possible the symbolism and the unfamiliar language, like a Bible commentary tries to do.

1:18 -> "Wrath of God is being revealed" this tells you that the wrath of God is not easily detected. It has to be 'Revealed' meaning it is hidden from the un-initiate, and it is revealed from Heaven. Heaven is not just up in the air but represents where the really important decisions happen which are not even decisions but are just facts. Its like saying its just Math, because its so inevitable and is just how things work. The question we as readers of this ancient letter and verse 18 must ask is "Who are the people suppressing truth by their wickedness? Me? You? Whom? Is Paul accusing someone?" The people who are opposing heaven are pretty much in opposition to the basic motion of the universe. They are trying to resist gravity practically.
1:19 -> quote: "...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them..." The case against them is building. Oh I hope it is not me!
1:20 -> Refers us to the invisible qualities of God and the foundation of Judaism. This is the world spoken of, because the planet Earth is established long before Judaism and before God is discovered. Its not about the physical planet but is describing Judaism, that world which begins when a person crosses the Red Sea and joins Abraham. Its therefore referencing something in the Bible, an event which Paul is referring to.
1:21 -> This event is in the Bible. There is an event in which this happens which is covered in multiple books: Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah. Paul reminds us that the people fall away and serve the creation, despite everything. Its roughly described in the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy, but this is specifically referring to a time of terrible judgment when the people are enslaved and taken away to Babylon. It is their temporary corruption that leads them there, required to live like Babylonians instead of like Jews. Most of them there lose their greatest treasure the Torah. They are seduced by Babylon but also forced to live like Babylonians and many enslaved. By the time that Zerubbabel leads a convoy to re-establish Judea 70 years later many are already lost, naturalized and beholden to Babylon. They aren't Jewish anymore. (This also applies to the invasion of Assyria in which the entire southern kingdom of Judah disappears, however there are reasons to think that this particular passage in Romans is about the events leading up the the Babylonian invasion and not Assyrian invasion.)
1:22 -> still talking about why the Babylonians conquered them
1:23 -> more of the same. Just read the various prophets, because they affirm this is what happens and is why Babylon invades. Technically what happens is the people stop upholding the principles they believe in, and this results in a weakness that allows the conqueror to conquer them.
1:24 -> a reference to life in Babylon
1:25 -> more descriptions of life in Babylon
1:26 -> "...shameful lusts..." referring to the foods and the lifestyles of the Babylonians
1:27 -> lusts of women for women and men for men -- descriptions of life outside of Judaism.
1:28 -> this is what Paul feels is the worst thing about the whole invasion.
1:29 -> They continue to make the same mistakes which takes them into Babylon in the first place! (lead in to chapter 2)
2:01 -> "You...!" So here is where Paul applies it to his audience who are reading the letter. He says "It is you!" or "You are those people who did those things!" or "You do the same things!"

 

[idav]

There's a few passages that make me think that. Though I am too tired to go research and find them again. Again it's not a certainty just a theory.

You mentioned free will at the same time as accepting the verses about hardening hearts.

 

[Enoch07]

You mentioned free will at the same time as accepting the verses about hardening hearts.

Yeah, free will is paramount.

But God can/has/probably will in the future harden the hearts of a small amount of people to prove a point if He feels it is necessary. Pharoah from Exodus is the prime example.

Exodus 14:8

8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

 

[idav]

My interest in this is for helping those Christians who, like me, are trying to figure all of this stuff out. I feel that there is a lifegiving impulse in Christianity which is being smothered today by commercialism and pastorism. There is a radical freedom here that is available, and there is a power for the common person.

Romans 1:18-29 I truly believe is not what you are describing. I will attempt to paraphrase it, line by line, removing if possible the symbolism and the unfamiliar language, like a Bible commentary tries to do.

1:18 -> "Wrath of God is being revealed" this tells you that the wrath of God is not easily detected. It has to be 'Revealed' meaning it is hidden from the un-initiate, and it is revealed from Heaven. Heaven is not just up in the air but represents where the really important decisions happen which are not even decisions but are just facts. Its like saying its just Math, because its so inevitable and is just how things work. The question we as readers of this ancient letter and verse 18 must ask is "Who are the people suppressing truth by their wickedness? Me? You? Whom? Is Paul accusing someone?" The people who are opposing heaven are pretty much in opposition to the basic motion of the universe. They are trying to resist gravity practically.
1:19 -> quote: "...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them..." The case against them is building. Oh I hope it is not me!
1:20 -> Refers us to the invisible qualities of God and the foundation of Judaism. This is the world spoken of, because the planet Earth is established long before Judaism and before God is discovered. Its not about the physical planet but is describing Judaism, that world which begins when a person crosses the Red Sea and joins Abraham. Its therefore referencing something in the Bible, an event which Paul is referring to.
1:21 -> This event is in the Bible. There is an event in which this happens which is covered in multiple books: Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah. Paul reminds us that the people fall away and serve the creation, despite everything. Its roughly described in the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy, but this is specifically referring to a time of terrible judgment when the people are enslaved and taken away to Babylon. It is their temporary corruption that leads them there, required to live like Babylonians instead of like Jews. Most of them there lose their greatest treasure the Torah. They are seduced by Babylon but also forced to live like Babylonians and many enslaved. By the time that Zerubbabel leads a convoy to re-establish Judea 70 years later many are already lost, naturalized and beholden to Babylon. They aren't Jewish anymore. (This also applies to the invasion of Assyria in which the entire southern kingdom of Judah disappears, however there are reasons to think that this particular passage in Romans is about the events leading up the the Babylonian invasion and not Assyrian invasion.)
1:22 -> still talking about why the Babylonians conquered them
1:23 -> more of the same. Just read the various prophets, because they affirm this is what happens and is why Babylon invades. Technically what happens is the people stop upholding the principles they believe in, and this results in a weakness that allows the conqueror to conquer them.
1:24 -> a reference to life in Babylon
1:25 -> more descriptions of life in Babylon
1:26 -> "...shameful lusts..." referring to the foods and the lifestyles of the Babylonians
1:27 -> lusts of women for women and men for men -- descriptions of life outside of Judaism.
1:28 -> this is what Paul feels is the worst thing about the whole invasion.
1:29 -> They continue to make the same mistakes which takes them into Babylon in the first place! (lead in to chapter 2)
2:01 -> "You...!" So here is where Paul applies it to his audience who are reading the letter. He says "It is you!" or "You are those people who did those things!" or "You do the same things!"

Nice commentary. By "you", you mean them sinning Romans of course.

 

[idav]

Yeah, free will is paramount.

But God can/has/probably will in the future harden the hearts of a small amount of people to prove a point if He feels it is necessary. Pharoah from Exodus is the prime example.

Exodus 14:8

8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

The OP mentions the other scriptural support going on to question Romans 1:28-29. That god takes these "godless" and turns them into evil wicked greedy depravities.

 

[Enoch07]

The OP mentions the other scriptural support going on to question Romans 1:28-29. That god takes these "godless" and turns them into evil wicked greedy depravities.

Back it up a little more for context and the answer is clear, which I have already mentioned.

Romans 1:24-29

Because some twisted God's words into lies. This is a big no no, and they* will be spanked for it!

Edit: Changed you* to they*, because I didn't want it to read as accusatory.

 

[idav]

Back it up a little more for context and the answer is clear, which I have already mentioned.

Romans 1:24-29

Because some twisted God's words into lies. This is a big no no, and they* will be spanked for it!

Edit: Changed you* to they*, because I didn't want it to read as accusatory.

One of Roman ones unsubstantiated claims is that gods truth is obvious, so they are with no fault. I've only quoted straight from the chapter, no twisting.