• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

How are these Great Beings explained?

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But Muhammad is the next manifestation after Jesus. The prophecies, at least some of them, have to be equally right on for him too. All any Baha'i has come up with is 666AD. And that's for a beast. And why not an 1863 prophecy for Baha'u'llah, since he's the main guy in all this. But all the dates all are 1260 years and all end in 1844.

Daniel 12:11"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

The Declaration of Muhammad was AD613, thus "the abomination that maketh desolate set up", 1863 was the end of 1290 Luna Years and the public Declaration of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The prophecies can be interpreted in different ways, albeit often inconsistently and incompletely. Look for instance into the interpretations of the revelation (where two witnesses are mentioned) by some of the Christian scholars from different denominations and see if they have a complete interpretation verse by verse. Are their interpretations compatible verse by verse with the events of verifiable history? Are they also interpreting the prophecies in Islam as well? why not? I suppose because they imagine only their own religion is true. Do Muslim Scholars interpret the Book of revelation verse by verse, or they ignore it because most of them believe it to be corrupted? But the Baha'i Central Figures have interpreted the prophecies of Shia and Sunni, Christianity and Jewish Bible extensively and fairly completely and consistently showing they match with history, in such a way that no one can refute them. Not withstanding that no traces of religious study can be found in history to attribute to the central figures of the Baha'i faith and more impressively, when Abdulbaha was giving interpretations of the chapters of Revelation, He did not stop to think how to match each verse with history. But it just flowed from His mind. Now think about the beast of Book of revelation with seven heads and ten horns, which Abdulbaha interprets as seven dominions where Islam progressed and 10 names of Ummayids. He even from His mind gave accurately the names of the seven dominions where Islam progressed in them, and the 10 names of Ummayids as well as. Now when we verify His interpretations and compare with history, we see exactly there has been seven dominions or main regions where Islam progressed during Ummayids reign as no where more or less did Islam progressed, and there are only 10 names that Ummayids had. This is of course an example intended to demonstrate He interprets all from His mind in twinkling of an eye, while accurately in a way that cannot be refuted. when I say it cannot be refuted, I do not mean everyone can believe it, but I mean one cannot prove any mismatches between history and the explanation of the prophecy described by Abdulbaha, thus, cannot prove, this prophecy was not fulfilled. Now, the important thing is to know that, it is not like He had to think how to interpret them, or having history books around him to see what matches with the prophecy. He did not study history or religion on His own before either, so it may be said He possibly used that knowledge to think how to match the prophecy with history. As there have been many people around Him all the time, and though many of His companions wrote about the days of life of Abdulbaha, they never said, Abdulbaha was reading history or religious books, and it is unlikely and virtually impossible that they missed it, or forgot to mention it in their historical accounts, even though in their historical accounts, they often mentioned many details of doings and sayings of Abdulbaha. An obviously mysterious ability that, we cannot find any one else in the history among Christians, Hindus,Muslims or anybody else to do such things. Now we have to see the differences here. How others interpret, and how Abdulbaha did. Have you seen anyone else with no prior study of history and religion, and without any traces of reading books or learning from others, interprets Prophecies and matches them with historical accounts?
The Ummayads didn't start on the year of the Hejira and they didn't end in 1844. But the beast they supposedly represent lasted the 1260 days that get made into years. So there are some problems with the explanation.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Daniel 12:11"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

The Declaration of Muhammad was AD613, thus "the abomination that maketh desolate set up", 1863 was the end of 1290 Luna Years and the public Declaration of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony
So who was the abomination, Muhammad?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So who was the abomination, Muhammad?

Abdul'Baha explained it this way;

"..Afterward, in verse 11, it is said: “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolation be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muḥammad in the country of Ḥijáz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muḥammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadíjah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá’u’lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muḥammad, caused His manifestation to be known."

"..What "oppression" is greater than that which hath been recounted? What "oppression" is more grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek it?" (Baha'u'llah)

"..Just as the surface of the material world becomes dark and dreary, the soil dormant, the trees naked and bare and no beauty or freshness remain to cheer the darkness and desolation, so the winter of the spiritual cycle witnesses the death and disappearance of divine growth and extinction of the light and love of God." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith)

Thus"the abomination that maketh desolation".

Prophecy of Daniel; Modifications of Baha'u'llah and the New Era

Regards Tony
 
Last edited:

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Follow the discussion I had with Tumah on the link I sent you and it will become clear.
..... first thing I did at dawn today.
I also read right through the thread on Messianic Prophecies.
Isn't it amazing? 2000 years after JC there are translators telling Christians that their OT and their 'key' words are all (mostly) wrong. I accept that for 1600 of those years the JC priesthood witheld much truth from the congregations, applying anything from hindrance, through threats, right on to terrifying deaths where any might wander or delve too deeply.

The way I see it...............
.............during the Uprisings of the mid-1st century the Jewish factions were killing each other inside the Temple, even as they fought off the Roman forces outside. They were chucking each other over the Walls!
.............during the 2000 years of Christianity, Christians were fighting, murdering, poisoning each other even to the extent of Popes breaking every commandment written.
............... Islam has not managed much better.

All the clever arguments, words, talks and written words cannot beat .................... actions.

But please........... to pop up now with a bahai poster, waving it with smiling features and promising a new dawn of really nice humanity.......... o_O

Your pleasure at the (proposed) failure of JC to meet with all the Messianic requirements was fun to read. :p
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Some indigenous children tragically drowned in a lake east of here. Searcher's weren't sure where to look, until eagles circled the spot to look.

Yeah.
Sadly, a dedicated eagle naturalist could give a natural explanation for that, miraculous in itself.

But that's fine, because the spirit within each creature was/is all about what it did, how it reacted, lived and even how it died.

I haven't done enough. I know that now, but since, like you, I am retired, maybe I should spend more time researching the beliefs and understandings of as many 'primitive' cultures as possible, because I'm prepared to bet that they held more truth and sense than the Abrahamics all put together.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There are 5 Levels of Spirit

Vegetable Spirit
Animal Spirit
Human Spirit
Spirit of Faith
Holy Spirit.

This is a talk on this subject - Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 143-145

As to the Animal Spirit the power of the senses are produced and with this Spirit, "It will perceive the reality of things from that which is seen and visible, audible, edible, tangible, and that which can be smelled. After the dissociation and decomposition of the combined elements this spirit also will naturally disappear."

Thus we are all tied to this earth and all creation, to dust we return.

Mind must call on the 4th Level of Spirit, the Spirit of Faith. It is in this way we are Born again, born into the acceptance of the Holy Spirit in the age we live in.

How can we comprehend a Universe, when we only look at and from a pinhead?

Regards Tony

That was written by Abdul Baha, who admitted himself that he was not a Divine Messenger.

Anyway......... there are not 'levels' of spirit, but spirits.

So if you op an 's' on the end of some, you will have found the truth, methinks:
Vegetable Spirits
Animal Spirits
Human Spirits

But there is no 'Spirit of Faith'. Faith is strong belief, which can be misguided of course. No real spirits in an action of Faith, any more than the action of cycling.

As for 'Holy Spirit', that would be the Christian Holy Ghost, I guess, which I have absolutely no belief in whatsoever. Do Bahais believe in the Holy Ghost? Strange!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I don't believe in spirits as mostly imagined by people, as a visible being that comes to a place or goes to another place. But I believe in it as a non-materialistic, non-location, invisible and unknowable essence of human beings.
So your idea of a spirit is all the negatives, non, in, un etc?
Nothing positive there.
Spiritual worlds of God, are not a place. They are another realm, unknowable to us. We only know there is a non-physical life after death. But I also believe it is impossible to understand it while we are still here in this life.
I'll bet that in a Bahai heaven, only Bahais can arrive, or the parents of Bahais. :p
It's so........ so...... self securing, self satisfying........ odd

Animals have soul too, but we do not believe their soul remains after they die. They have a different kind of spirit than human.
Don't you think that humans are really really stupid to create beliefs that can reassure themselves whilst excluding all those creatures which they can then abuse, eat, exploit............ ?

It seems like some kind of neurosis or psychopathy to cling to such stuff..... ?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I've known Baha'is that said they saw visions of Abdu'l Baha. Was it a spirit or a hallucination?

Could have been either, or neither.
I'm open minded about spirits.

I've seen (and still possess) strong evidence for orbs, have experienced and witnessed what could well have been healing, and witnessed most strange apparitions in my youth which might have been willow-the-wisp (marsh gas) ..... but I don't know.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That was written by Abdul Baha, who admitted himself that he was not a Divine Messenger.

Anyway......... there are not 'levels' of spirit, but spirits.

So if you op an 's' on the end of some, you will have found the truth, methinks:
Vegetable Spirits
Animal Spirits
Human Spirits

But there is no 'Spirit of Faith'. Faith is strong belief, which can be misguided of course. No real spirits in an action of Faith, any more than the action of cycling.

As for 'Holy Spirit', that would be the Christian Holy Ghost, I guess, which I have absolutely no belief in whatsoever. Do Bahais believe in the Holy Ghost? Strange!

Yes Abdul'baha was not a Messenger, He was the "Servant of Baha" and Baha'u'llah gave full Authority to Abdul'baha's explanations.

Lets see now, choice between Oldbadgers views who admits no belief in a higher spiritual explanation, or Abdul'baha who showed by His life that what He said was Truth.

Mmmm, no bet given on what I will choose :D:p;)

Regards Tony
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Lets see now, choice between Oldbadgers views who admits no belief in a higher spiritual explanation,
Nope! I am completely open minded about Spirits.
Because you've been told they don't exist you won't look.... = prejudice. ;)

or Abdul'baha who showed by His life that what He said was Truth.
Nobody so far has explained how he was awarded his British knighthood.......... some truth there would be good.


Mmmm, no bet given on what I will choose :D:p;)

Regards Tony
Tony...... you're predictable! ;)
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
The Ummayads didn't start on the year of the Hejira and they didn't end in 1844. But the beast they supposedly represent lasted the 1260 days that get made into years. So there are some problems with the explanation.
Those are two different beasts. Check their numbers of crowns and horns, in each case is differrent.
The beast that was explained by Abdulbaha was Umayids.
The Umayids was there before Muhammad's mission began. But it considered the beast only when he started to oppose Religion of God.
The beast that lived for 1260 years, would include all the later False Islams after Umayids, such as Abbasids. It's duration is counted till the Manifestation of the Bab, because Once He appeared, He revived True Religion again.
It is like, cycle of Night. It only continues till the Morning. The Bab was the Sun that appeared after the darkness. Once He appeared He established True Religion, which is Light, and the Beast which was as darkness, gone.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You mean you have some tolerance for religions that are like yours and no tolerance for religions followed by more than half the worlds population and can't be bothered considering anything that looks remotely Abrahamic.
These really are not religions but cults based on a particular person.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Thats the kind of logic that legitamises Hindus butchering innocent Muslims, because the Muslims were worse...but yes, its a very clear statement.

Wow. It's not connected at all. Someone being direct on an internet forum isn't related to ethnic violence. But if you want to make that connection, go ahead. Maybe ask the mods to report him to the Delhi police to put him on their watch list. Huge stretch. But then logic isn't always the forte of the Baha'i either. I've heard therm claim that a human being can be God.

I don't like rude words or behaviour either, but it happens all the time on forums. Been accused of it myself, merely for disagreeing.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
In other words, in my opinion, look for the Good, be inspired by the good, think good, act good, see naught but good, do good.

Thank you, and I agree with that, and I do see it. That's exactly why I think the world is fine as it is, and doesn't need changing, or the doom and gloom approach some Baha'is take. Optimism over pessimism. No 'manifestations' needed.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yeah.
Sadly, a dedicated eagle naturalist could give a natural explanation for that, miraculous in itself.

But that's fine, because the spirit within each creature was/is all about what it did, how it reacted, lived and even how it died.

I haven't done enough. I know that now, but since, like you, I am retired, maybe I should spend more time researching the beliefs and understandings of as many 'primitive' cultures as possible, because I'm prepared to bet that they held more truth and sense than the Abrahamics all put together.


On the tops of hills in remote areas of western Canada lie stone circles. The one we visited this summer was referred to as the Stonehenge of Canada by one researcher. It is at least 10 000 years old. My 'primitive' Hindu culture contains so much as well.
 
Top